Mad Queen Daenerys.
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
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Mad Queen Daenerys.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
You guys have such cute optimism.
In reality: Sansa dies, Arya dies, etc...
In reality: Sansa dies, Arya dies, etc...
PhoenixDark
Banned
I really doubt Aegon is Argon. I'm at school and can't link to it, but there's a thread on reddit that notes a very interesting story from AFFC that suggest he's a Blackfyre. A maester story about a Blackfyre sign that was thrown into the river, and by the time it reached the south it had turned red with rust
It seems even more obvious when you consider AFFC and ADWD were once one book
Saint Gregory
Member
Even though I've ignored the WoW preview I did read about that theory and it makes a lot of sense. One thing that I was concerned about though is I thought I remembered there being a part in ADWD where a story was being told about Varys buying a baby from a peasant but I can't remeber the context of the story or who was telling it.
My whole Lyanna theory is pretty out there but I just wonder how GRRM is going to tie everything together regarding Jon (if he is Lyanna's baby) and his past. Barristan is the only character that we know about who might know who Jon is although I guess that there's a chance Connington might know too since he and Rhaegar were best friends.
If Lyanna were somehow still around it would be pretty convenient to let her fill in all the holes about what really happened between her, Robert and Rhaegar.
You're right, I keep forgetting that he was there too. And GRRM keeps avoiding introducing him into the story so maybe that's what he's saving him for.
Analytical
Banned
I think our best chance at finding out the truth about Jon is Howland Reed,he really needs to show up in the next book
shadowsdarknes
Member
Of course it includes Jon Snow. If Jon Snow is truly dead I think I might stop reading the series. I seriously mean that. Not because he is my favorite character (he is) but because there is so much mystery and loose ends surrounding his character that must be resolved.
One loose end is Ned's relationship with Howland Reed. We haven't even met Howland Reed or been to the Marshes yet. However, we have heard many stories through various characters to describe the Mystery Knight, the Isle of Faces and received a picture of the Marshes through the accounts of the Reed children. Martin went into some detail describing the type of man Howland Reed was, and his association with Ned. In fact he is one of Ned's most loyal allies. Let's not forget he holds the secret to Jon's parentage as well. That one aspect is what makes Jon such an intriguing character with evidence supporting the theory that Jon is probably more than meets the eye.
There is too much mystique surrounding Jon Snow to off him this far into the series forsake of novel norms. He is the established hero, something every series needs. Especially one as unpredictable as ASoIaF. Lastly, Jon's offing didn't feel right, whereas Ned's and Robb's did. I never once had the impression or felt the typical dread surrounding a character whose fate is death with Jon. His murder felt rushed and was a bit sloppy overall just as Bowen Marsh's assassination was sloppily handled as well, therefore it may have intentionally written that way. Which brings me to this conclusion. I'm going with my instincts here by predicting Jon's revival 2/5ths into Winds either through the eyes of Mel or through a Jon POV. He still has much too accomplish for his story to end the way it did, that much is evident.
Couldn't agree more. Jon's my favorite character too.
arglebargle
Member
i dont plan to read the AWOW chapters until the book comes out, so i would appreciate spoiler tags on anything from those.
that means way too many people could still be alive. balon greyjoy, for example, no? unless i misunderstand.
just quoting this because the visual made me laugh.
ok, cool. i was asking partially because i still need reassurance that he is still alive now, and partially because i honestly dont know if he will make it to the end of the series. he is one of my favorites also, but many of my previous favorites have been killed. great post, by the way.
Saint Gregory
Member
One thing I've noticed, and Catelyn is the only exception I can think of to this, is that when characters in ASOIAF are killed you witness the killing from another characters POV. I really feel that if Jon were dead GRRM would have switched the POV to Melisandre at the end of ADWD.
No you're not misunderstanding, I'm just being overly simplistic. Basically the rule is, if a character is dead, you don't see them die and they have an unresolved storyline then they might still be alive. Sandor has a lot of bones to pick and I have tons of problems with Lyanna. The Lyanna issues may just be from GRRM wanting to leave some doors open when he was writing GoT for story possibilities later though.
Prologue and epilogue characters are also the exception to this.
Saint Gregory
Member
The prologue and epilogue characters have all died haven't they? I'm not sure if that supports my theory or shoots it down entirely.
Yes. I'm not sure what it means for your theory either, but I thought I should point it out.
IAmtheFMan
Member
I think Howland Reed reveals that Jon's mother is some insignificant tavern wench, Jon stays dead as a true bastard, Ghost dies from some recessive predisposition to wolf-cancer, and Ned's promise to Lyanna was to burn her porn stash. <-- Only half joking.
Saint Gregory
Member
Well then Lyanna's dying wish truly was for naught, for Howland Reed will reveal in TWOW that while away on her grand adventure with Rhaegar back in Winterfell Hodor got all up in that porn stash.
What do you think screwed him up like that?
She most likely died in childbirth. There might be a pattern of women dying in childbirth when they give birth to a particulary special Targaryen. Such as Daenerys and Jon
or Tyrion!
Saint Gregory
Member
Damn, I never considered that spoiler but it would kind of fit in with what freaky mask ghost chick (whetever her name is) tells Dany in her prophecy.
There are some weird inconsistencies in the Lyanna backstory but because of the way the story is written it's hard for me to figure out if it's laying the groundwork for something later in the story or just me over thinking things.
One thing that bothered me since GoT is why is Lyanna buried in the crypts at Winterfell? Those crypts are supposed to be for Kings in the North or Lords of Winterfell and Lyanna was neither. When Robert asks Ned why he buried her down there in the dark Ned says it's because she was a Stark and that's where she belonged but was it?
I really need to re-read the books from the beginning and see if I just missed some info.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I listened to the latest Podcast Of Ice and Fire episode and one of the hosts mentioned that someone spoiled the Red Wedding for Larry Williams recently. That really pisses me off. I guess it was always going to be hard for him to stay spoiler free, given he reads his emails and video comments...but I'm still mad.
Last I heard he had bought the books and was reading them, so I'd imagine he'll catch up soon enough. Still though...
Last I heard he had bought the books and was reading them, so I'd imagine he'll catch up soon enough. Still though...
PhoenixDark
Banned
Shortly after starting ACOK I remember getting scared something would happen to Robb so I read a bit of ACOK's wikipedia and I briefly stumbled across a few words suggesting Robb got seriously injured. I was like fuck, then when I got to the part where Catelyn hears that Robb was injured in battle I was like fffuuuuuuu. But the injury turned out to be minor and I felt like both Robb and I dodged a bullet. He survived the book and all was well.
Then I read ASOS
Then I read ASOS
arglebargle
Member
i didnt have the red wedding spoiled, but i did have the fact that tyrion survives at the end of whichever book we think he might be dead at the end of by going to amazon and having them advertise the next book to me with a tyrion chapter.
Dragons? Theres a fake out in that. And I guess theres insinuations of his death in Feast as well.
arglebargle
Member
maybe i am remembering incorrectly. i read all 5 books back to back this summer so they sorta blend together. its possible it wasnt at the end of a book that there was a chance he was dead, it could have been mid book. is there a cliffhanger chapter where we think he may have drowned while going up the river with connington?
Yeah, that was ADWD.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Halfway through Storm of Swords, Robb and Catelyn just died, not even reading any other posts in this thread, just wanted to drop in to say "STOP KILLING CHARACTERS I LIKE!"
I was devastated. Robb was far and away my favorite character up to that point.
Yes, Robb was the only one left you could root for.
I maintain that Zombie Cat is a stupid idea.
I maintain that Zombie Cat is a stupid idea.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
UGH. That was scary. I started my re-read of dragons when i hit the Jon chapter very early on talking about sending him away. Then i remembered all the stuff with Gilly and the baby and seriously got sad thinking i had to endure that again along with the dany stuff. Then i remembered that was Feast. It seriously didnt hit me until i had already typed a full post describing how i didnt want to have to read that again through dragons. What a weird sense of relief.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
It feels like now the focus is somehow going to shift to Bran, but I have almost no connection to Bran
Mostly I'm just pissed that Starks keep dying.
Mostly I'm just pissed that Starks keep dying.
And yet Sansa still lives. Is there no justice.
Rickon 4 life.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
While I'm at it, there had better be a fucking awesome payoff for The Wall. You do not build a three hundred mile long wall that's seven hundred fucking feet high to hold off a few zombies. There had better be like...a civilization of those ice people.
I thought for a while that the reason why the series was called A Song of Ice and Fire was that Robb would take up the sword Ice and do battle with the Lannisters and their new red swords. But Robb is dead and we haven't heard a thing about Ice, so...
I thought for a while that the reason why the series was called A Song of Ice and Fire was that Robb would take up the sword Ice and do battle with the Lannisters and their new red swords. But Robb is dead and we haven't heard a thing about Ice, so...
Steelyuhas
Member
"Bring me my liege lord."
Robb was my favorite character though. I love his portrayal on the show even more.
I wish the Invasion would quicken up. Yeah they had to wait for winter, But i hope to hear some back story rather than 'Oh fuck zombies'.
Robb felt like too much of a cliched fantasy hero to me. He just didn't fit in with the rest of the series. You have all those Sansa chapters directly saying over and over that life is not like a fairy tale, and meanwhile Robb is this fairy tale character - young, handsome, clever, great leader, brave, kind, honorable, secretly humble, etc.
I think that's the point, look where that got him.
You do realize that there are people in real life who are all those things, right?
He was the one character who reminded me the most of myself.
Tywin had the sword melted down to forge two new Lannister blades of valarian steel. This actually hit me pretty hard when I first read about it, and I almost felt like another Stark family member had just been killed. I was quite angry because I felt like every trace of the Starks was being swept away.
The fact that he had no POV chapters meant that he was expendable. Although that never stopped GRRM from trolling us hard.
arglebargle
Member
beat me to it. where are these now? im not the best with the details but does ilyn payne have one and brienne the other?
One, Widow's Wail, was given to Joffrey, but since he died, Tommen has inherited it. Brienne has the other, Oath Keeper.
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