Support NeoGAF

[Chuck Norris]

Who gives a shit about George anymore. The TV show will overtake the books by the time Winds of Winter is out, and if they have to make it up or they know what happens in the last book it doesn't matter. I'll consider the TV canon and if George miraculously lives to finish the series then it'll be a neat little alternate story

 

[Lactose_Intolerant]

Where did Victarion end up at in Dance? I swear he was in the bay and could actually see the walls of Mereen.

Pretty sure you are right. He was giving his whole speech to rev up the troops before they go in to fight.

 

[endre]

I never argued he is not building up on his earlier stories. I argued about him clearly knowing how to wrap it up.

Now, that you mention, the character I hate the most is Patchface. I just simply dislike him.

Who gives a shit about George anymore. The TV show will overtake the books by the time Winds of Winter is out, and if they have to make it up or they know what happens in the last book it doesn't matter. I'll consider the TV canon and if George miraculously lives to finish the series then it'll be a neat little alternate story

Yeah...no!

 

[Salvadora]

I do think speculating on his death is in bad taste, I'm more concerned with the amount of travelling he does and how that affects the wait between the books.

 

[elrechazado]

I never argued he is not building up on his earlier stories. I argued about him clearly knowing how to wrap it up.

Now, that you mention, the character I hate the most is Patchface. I just simply dislike him.



Yeah...no!

Under the sea the writers use squid ink. I know, oh oh oh.

 

[endre]

Under the sea the writers use squid ink. I know, oh oh oh.

Spot on.

 

[The God of Nonexistence]

Who gives a shit about George anymore. The TV show will overtake the books by the time Winds of Winter is out, and if they have to make it up or they know what happens in the last book it doesn't matter. I'll consider the TV canon and if George miraculously lives to finish the series then it'll be a neat little alternate story

It would be no more than fan fiction. Never canon.

 

[The Technomancer]

Something in DwD made me think that Patchface is going to be important somehow, but I can't remember what scene it was...

 

[Salvadora]

I wonder how Greyscale will play out.

 

[jett]

Something in DwD made me think that Patchface is going to be important somehow, but I can't remember what scene it was...

???

Patchface is dead.

 

[elrechazado]

???

Patchface is dead.

Wait, what?

 

[kswiston]

I still hold out hope that GRRM will pick up the pace for the last two books. Even 3 years instead of 5-6 would be welcome.

I know it is not exactly the same situation, but Steven King took 20 years to publish the first 5 parts of the Dark Tower series, yet he got books 5-7 out in a two year span by putting other works on hold.

EDIT: Patchface is not dead.

 

[The Technomancer]

I still hold out hope that GRRM will pick up the pace for the last two books. Even 3 years instead of 5-6 would be welcome.

I know it is not exactly the same situation, but Steven King took 20 years to publish the first 5 parts of the Dark Tower series, yet he got books 5-7 out in a two year span by putting other works on hold.

Do we know its two more books? Because on an intuitive level that "feels" exactly right to me: one book would rush too much to tie everything together and three would drag everything out.

 

[Salvadora]

I don't think he'll put other work on hold though.

 

[jett]

Wait, what?

LOL nevermind, confused Patchface with Dontos.

 

[CrunchyB]

Something in DwD made me think that Patchface is going to be important somehow, but I can't remember what scene it was...

Melissandre has a vision of him, with blood on his lips and surrounded by skulls.
He also made a spot-on Red Wedding prophecy (King's blood, chains for the guests, etc) so he's obviously more than a simple jester.

Also, possibly related, he hangs out with Shireen and the wildling women are terrified of her (being a greyscale survivor) as well.

 

[kswiston]

Do we know its two more books? Because on an intuitive level that "feels" exactly right to me: one book would rush too much to tie everything together and three would drag everything out.

A Dream of Spring was announced as the title of the Seventh book a few years back. Maybe his plans have changed, but for now it seems like there will be Seven books. It definitely won't be done with Winds of Winter.

 

[The Technomancer]

Melissandre has a vision of him, with blood on his lips and surrounded by skulls.
He also made a spot-on Red Wedding prophecy (King's blood, chains for the guests, etc) so he's obviously more than a simple jester.

Also, possibly related, he hangs out with Shireen and the wildling women are terrified of her (being a greyscale survivor) as well.

That was it!

 

[Gregorn]

I remember reading something about foreshadowing for something living under the sea and Patchface is just an avatar for it. I think someone threw a dragon egg in the sea once and in CoK there's reports of a kraken or whatever, I think it sounds like a cool idea.

 

[Salvadora]

I remember reading something about foreshadowing for something living under the sea and Patchface is just an avatar for it. I think someone threw a dragon egg in the sea once and in CoK there's reports of a kraken or whatever, I think it sounds like a cool idea.

Didn't Euron have a dragon egg?

 

[PhoenixDark]

I remember reading something about foreshadowing for something living under the sea and Patchface is just an avatar for it. I think someone threw a dragon egg in the sea once and in CoK there's reports of a kraken or whatever, I think it sounds like a cool idea.

dead things in the water

 

[kswiston]

I remember reading something about foreshadowing for something living under the sea and Patchface is just an avatar for it. I think someone threw a dragon egg in the sea once and in CoK there's reports of a kraken or whatever, I think it sounds like a cool idea.

I think that Patchface is an avatar for the Drowned God. I also think the Drowned God and R'hllor are different aspects of the same force/entity.

 

[apana]

I told you guys already, Patchface is gonna blow up that damn wall. At the end of Winds of Winter when everything is going well, boom it goes down and white walkers rush through.

 

[Pollux]

I remember reading something about foreshadowing for something living under the sea and Patchface is just an avatar for it. I think someone threw a dragon egg in the sea once and in CoK there's reports of a kraken or whatever, I think it sounds like a cool idea.

Could just be foreshadowing of the Drowned God waking up? We know the Rhollor is awake and kicking ass. The Other is fucking shit up. I though GRRM mentioned that we were going to see some intervention by the Seven in the next book. The "under the sea" could talk about the Drowned God waking along with the Krakens.

I think everyone needs to keep in mind that "the game of thrones" in the title doesn't really refer to the great houses and their struggle for the Iron Throne, but rather I think it's referring to a competition by the gods to exert their supremacy over one another. Just my personal little theory. Probably been talked to death in this thread though. I dunno.

edit: beaten in the 10 min. it took me to write this lol

I think that Patchface is an avatar for the Drowned God. I also think the Drowned God and R'hllor are different aspects of the same force/entity.

I don't think so, a god of light and fire is opposed to the god that chills in the dark deep of the ocean. I think they're different gods, just as Rhollor is different from the Seven (which are different faces of the same god, I think), and then The Other, and the Drowned God, and then there are the Old Gods of the North. But these are all different gods competing against each other.

 

[kswiston]

To add to my last post: The priest at the House of Black and White mentioned that the Many-Faced God they worship is the same god of Death that everyone worships. The Stranger of the Seven is another name for this God, and I would imagine that the Drowned God is as well. It would also follow that the Red Priest's God of Ice and Death who R'hllor protects the world from is this same god.

R'hllor is a god of creation according to Melisandre. However, I think that R'hllor and the dark God are two aspects of the same entity. This would mirror the Summer/Winter cycle of the world that ASOIAF is set in. This would sort of be similar to how Neil Gaiman interpreted the slavic god Chernobog in American Gods, but I am sure it has been done many times elsewhere in myth and literature. This part is a bit of a stretch, but that is my hunch.

Also, I think the majority of the seven are just folklore with no real power.

 

[Basileus777]

We know the Rhollor is awake and kicking ass. The Other is fucking shit up.

We don't know any of this. All we know is that magic is back thanks to the return of the Dragons, and that the Old Gods are dudes stuck in trees, actual gods have not been proven to exist. And I don't think that's going to change, GRRM will leave that ambiguous.

 

[Pollux]

We don't know any of this. All we know is that magic is back thanks to the return of the Dragons, and that the Old Gods are dudes stuck in trees, actual gods have not been proven to exist. And I don't think that's going to change, GRRM will leave that ambiguous.

LOTS OF SPECULATION FROM EVERYONE.

Seriously though. The Other is behind the rise of the others. Rhollor is behind Melisandre.

I thought we had all agreed that Rhollor was alive and kicking at the very least.

 

[The Technomancer]

So based on the description in I think it was SoS I've pictured the others as being almost alien creatures actually made of ice (and in my head they look a little insectile). How do other people visualize them?

 

[Salvadora]

So based on the description in I think it was SoS I've pictured the others as being almost alien creatures actually made of ice (and in my head they look a little insectile). How do other people visualize them?

Like the undead with blue eyes.

 

[PhoenixDark]

We don't know any of this. All we know is that magic is back thanks to the return of the Dragons, and that the Old Gods are dudes stuck in trees, actual gods have not been proven to exist. And I don't think that's going to change, GRRM will leave that ambiguous.

Dunno dude, it seems pretty clear R'hllor has legit power; I don't see any priests of the other gods doing magic. Whereas the Lord Of Light has apparently revived multiple characters and healed serious injuries (like Victarion)

 

[Gregorn]

Didn't Euron have a dragon egg?

Yeah that's it, Euron threw a dragon egg into the sea because 'they're worthless lol' and there's no way George would put that information in if the egg wasn't going to hatch.

Since Patchface hasn't been cast for season 2 (I think?) then perhaps he won't be important at all. Unless his character is going to be rewritten so the TV audience won't be disappointed when Jon wargs into him.

 

[CrunchyB]

We don't know any of this. All we know is that magic is back thanks to the return of the Dragons, and that the Old Gods are dudes stuck in trees, actual gods have not been proven to exist. And I don't think that's going to change, GRRM will leave that ambiguous.

Magic is back, most likely due to the dragons reappearing. It is by no means a certain fact.
Followers of R'Hllor seem to have supernatural powers, but that could be unrelated to the reappearance of dragons. Personally, I doubt an actual "God of Light" exists in GRRM's world.

I though GRRM mentioned that we were going to see some intervention by the Seven in the next book.

For real? I must have missed that fact. The Seven have been curiously absent for the last five books. The same goes for the Drowned God and the Storm God. I wonder if any of them truly exist.

My personal theory is that there's a source of supernatural power in the world and many ways exist to tap that source. No actual (intelligent, decision making) deities are involved in the process.

 

[Basileus777]

Dunno dude, it seems pretty clear R'hllor has legit power; I don't see any priests of the other gods doing magic. Whereas the Lord Of Light has apparently revived multiple characters and healed serious injuries (like Victarion)

Fire magic has come back after the return of the dragons. The magic the R'hllor priesthood uses is just part of it, the glass candles and pyromancer's magic is the same. I don't think there's any proof that an actual god is the source of any of it, else why would a god need dragons to exist for his power to work?

Personally, I doubt an actual "God of Light" exists in GRRM's world.

At least I doubt we'll get overt proof of his existence. It doesn't seem like GRRM's style to have that spelled out. I think people expecting direct actions from gods as part of the future plot are looking in the wrong direction.

 

[apana]

There wont be any real gods in this story. They will be revealed to be just very powerful creatures. I'm thinking mainly of the great Other. My main theory is that the Others were good creatures once, and somehow corrupted. Now they hate all the warmth in the world and want to snuff it out.

 

[Salvadora]

I think its more likely that we are going to see what happens with Cersei allowing the Church to rearm.

 

[endre]

So based on the description in I think it was SoS I've pictured the others as being almost alien creatures actually made of ice (and in my head they look a little insectile). How do other people visualize them?

I saw them almost as stone cold humans. Maybe something like this:http://thereadycheck.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/White_walker_by_arkoniel.jpg

 

[Pollux]

I think its more likely that we are going to see what happens with Cersei allowing the Church to rearm.

That is going to be such a clusterfuck for her. I can't wait.

 

[CrunchyB]

There wont be any real gods in this story. They will be revealed to be just very powerful creatures. I'm thinking mainly of the great Other. My main theory is that the Others were good creatures once, and somehow corrupted. Now they hate all the warmth in the world and want to snuff it out.

Bran could probably look back some 8000 years and see

The timeline is a bit curious. I could easily see The Others as some Children of the Forest weapon gone horribly wrong, but the Children fought the First Men 12,000 years ago and made peace around -10,000. Only around -8000 did the Others first appear during The Long Night.

So that origin doesn't fit at all.

 

[The Technomancer]

Also, its an incredibly tenuous connection, but Martin wrote a short story decades ago about another planet that humanity had traveled to and then regressed to pre-industrial revolution levels of culture...that experienced summer and winter in many-year cycles. I've always wondered if mayhaps there's any kind of connection or if he was just pulling ideas from older work.

 

[Basileus777]

Also, its an incredibly tenuous connection, but Martin wrote a short story decades ago about another planet that humanity had traveled to and then regressed to pre-industrial revolution levels of culture...that experienced summer and winter in many-year cycles. I've always wondered if mayhaps there's any kind of connection or if he was just pulling ideas from older work.

He's probably just reusing ideas. It's my understanding that he's done that with some other works too.

 

[Vaporak]

Dunno dude, it seems pretty clear R'hllor has legit power; I don't see any priests of the other gods doing magic. Whereas the Lord Of Light has apparently revived multiple characters and healed serious injuries (like Victarion)

You must have missed Melisandre thinking that her magic works much better lately and she doesn't have to resort to chemical tricks like she used to; just like every other wizard in the world. It's pretty clear to me that the priests of R'hllor are just another clan of wizards.

 

[elrechazado]

You must have missed Melisandre thinking that her magic works much better lately and she doesn't have to resort to chemical tricks like she used to; just like every other wizard in the world. It's pretty clear to me that the priests of R'hllor are just another clan of wizards.

Yep, the pyromancers, the rhllor crowd, all of the fiery based magic in the world seems to be coming alive with the dragons. My bet is the lord of light is just one interpretation within the world of some innate powers that don't have anything to do with a god as we would understand it in many other fantasy books.

 

[K-Style]

Dunno dude, it seems pretty clear R'hllor has legit power; I don't see any priests of the other gods doing magic. Whereas the Lord Of Light has apparently revived multiple characters and healed serious injuries (like Victarion)

They seem to be having legit visions too. Their powers must never have completely waned or else they would have forgotten how to use them. Moquorro is so confident of his visions.

 

[tirminyl]

Did more magic come back to the world due to the dragons or just different aspects of the magic as if there are other little pockets of things that keep some magic around...weak, but around. What magic allows the others to make their return to the world again before the dragons are born?

I don't think there are gods in the sense we would expect. Just powerful beings that are able to bend and twist the magic in ways others can't therefore, claiming they are gods or being seen as gods by others. Either way, I also agree that we will never see them. Just their workers or avatars.

Bran is in a curious position. He can see all the past but not beyond the point in which the faces were carved in trees to give the children sight or does that not matter for the trees?

You know...I really want to know the source but I think that would ruin it for me. Kinda like me with the show

Spoiler

Fullmetal Alchemist

. Can never be too safe with spoilers.

 

[CrunchyB]

Did more magic come back to the world due to the dragons or just different aspects of the magic as if there are other little pockets of things that keep some magic around...weak, but around. What magic allows the others to make their return to the world again before the dragons are born?

Some kinds of magic have always been around. There are prophecies made in the Dunk & Egg stories, that could be considered magic. There's warging. The Faceless Men have been using their face-changing magic for thousands of years. The Others have been gathering strength for a while. It seems like only the fire-related magic that has been boosted by the dragons.

Bran is in a curious position. He can see all the past but not beyond the point in which the faces were carved in trees to give the children sight or does that not matter for the trees?

The Children of the Forest (and their trees) were around 12,000 years ago, that's way before anything interesting happened in Westeros. 6,000 years ago the Andals came and destroyed most of the weirwood trees south of the neck, so that's another limitation. Nevertheless, I suspect Bran will discover a lot of stuff hidden in the past.

My guess is that a weirwood tree needs to have a face for a Greenseer to see through. Otherwise it would be just too powerful.

 

[apana]

Bran could probably look back some 8000 years and see

The timeline is a bit curious. I could easily see The Others as some Children of the Forest weapon gone horribly wrong, but the Children fought the First Men 12,000 years ago and made peace around -10,000. Only around -8000 did the Others first appear during The Long Night.

So that origin doesn't fit at all.

Also, its an incredibly tenuous connection, but Martin wrote a short story decades ago about another planet that humanity had traveled to and then regressed to pre-industrial revolution levels of culture...that experienced summer and winter in many-year cycles. I've always wondered if mayhaps there's any kind of connection or if he was just pulling ideas from older work.

I definitely think there is some kind of twist to the Others and my guess is they are much older than the children. I envision them as being "advanced" humanoids but not humans. Advanced in both magic and technology (relative to humans anyways). At some point they devolved into the more primitive and elemental creatures we see now. George has said that there is a reason why the seasons are the way they are, it's not just a natural part of this world and I suspect an actual magical device is causing these shifts. A device that was once used to make sure that the seasons only came in ways that would help life but is now malfunctioning. Maybe the creatures who took care of it are dead. Either Bran or Jon, maybe both, have to make the journey to where the Others are. A suicide mission most likely.

edit: I just realized that Bran means Raven in Welsh. There was a famous Bran in celtic mythology called Bran the Blessed. He was a giant who possessed a cauldron that could regenerate people, meaning bring them back from the dead, but he gave it away as a gift which was what led to his downfall. He died but instructed his men to cut his head off so he could instruct future generations by living on as a talking head. His severed head was capable of prophecy.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Gutshot posted this earlier, but I'll post it again: Martin's conversation with HBO Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?annota...pllWyvJ2eNCbZcNBJb4Q&feature=iv&v=3S51i0EANGA

Lots of stuff we've heard before but it's always fun hearing him talk. One thing I found funny was his discussion of preferring dead characters stay dead in fiction. O'rly!

edit: and lol @ George spoiling stuff from ADWD haha

 

[The Technomancer]

I've always thought that the seasons thing was either a natural problem with the planet's tilt and orbit or else some kind of disaster of massive magnitude threw it off.

 

[Dresden]

I've always thought that the seasons thing was either a natural problem with the planet's tilt and orbit or else some kind of disaster of massive magnitude threw it off.

It's something I always just glossed over as 'magic ain't gotta explain shit.'

As for the gods, still in belief that all the Rhllor shit and etc. are just aspects of two primal forces at work, summer vs. winter, fire vs. ice, which in ASOIAF's world are elemental and give not a fuck about the humans that worship it.

 

[apana]

I've always thought that the seasons thing was either a natural problem with the planet's tilt and orbit or else some kind of disaster of massive magnitude threw it off.

As far as I know George said that the reason was magical and would be explained in later books, maybe the last one.