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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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B

BruceLeeRoy

Banned
Pkaz01 said:
BruceLeeRoy I suggest you don't post in this thread until you are completely done with all the books and at least finish SoS before giving up on the series. I got Robb's death spoiled for me while still on book 1 and he was my favorite character but the second I read that I lost interest in him and it kind of desensitized his death. But theres still a lot of amazing things to to look forward to.
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Good advise. You guys convinced me to keep on going but ill be back.
 
E

endre

Member
I like the series very much, but I don't get why the rage if someone of the major characters dies? If anything that is what makes the series rise above other stories. Haven't we had enough of cheesy stories?
 
L

Lirlond

Member
endre said:
I like the series very much, but I don't get why the rage if someone of the major characters dies? If anything that is what makes the series rise above other stories. Haven't we had enough of cheesy stories?
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You've been reading the books for years now, the third book comes out, and the only character we really get to root for, is suddenly offed in a spectacular way. The Arya chapter right after ends in an ambigous way(I had though Sandor killed her on my first read). And you don't expect people to be upset? The fact you feel empathy for the characters is what makes it a great series, and that means you might throw a fit if a character you like dies.
 
E

endre

Member
Lirlond said:
You've been reading the books for years now, the third book comes out, and the only character we really get to root for, is suddenly offed in a spectacular way.
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To be honest I might be biased here since I read all the books at once. But its fictional. Or even if you find an example from the War of the Roses per se, it's called life. Stuff happen.

At least it is a spectacular end, and it is one of the biggest things that makes the series stand out. Haven't you had enough of stories where you know that nothing serious can happen to your favorite character?

Lirlond said:
The Arya chapter right after ends in an ambigous way(I had though Sandor killed her on my first read). And you don't expect people to be upset? The fact you feel empathy for the characters is what makes it a great series, and that means you might throw a fit if a character you like dies.
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Its ok to feel empathy for the characters, but to rage about it? Or be be upset about it? C'mon. To be anxious, or disappointed? Yes, I can go with that.
 
bengraven

bengraven

Member
Puddles said:
You should have seen my posts on this matter when I read the series a year ago. Robb was my favorite character by a country mile. I was destroyed and almost rage-quit the series.

Stick with it though. A Storm of Swords has some amazing payoff in the second half. You won't regret it.
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I love my old posts in the "Song of Ice and Fire is gud" thread. The first 10 pages are basically me saying the covers look generic and asking "would I like this if I hated Sword of Truth?". Someone convinces me that these books are about on SoT level and so I very arrogantly reply that yep, no thanks, not interested in this kind of series, sorry.

A few pages later I apologized like three times because I started the books and got hooked almost immediately.
 
A

adamsappel

Member
endre said:
Its ok to feel empathy for the characters, but to rage about it? Or be be upset about it? C'mon. To be anxious, or disappointed? Yes, I can go with that.
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In 1840, when Charles Dickens' The Old Curiosity Shop was serialized, people used to go to the docks and wait for ships to arrive from England and shout up to passengers, "What news of Little Nell?", one of the characters presumably dying of consumption.

Is it really that far a line from disappointment to being upset? Has no media ever moved you emotionally?
 
E

endre

Member
adamsappel said:
In 1840, when Charles Dickens' The Old Curiosity Shop was serialized, people used to go to the docks and wait for ships to arrive from England and shout up to passengers, "What news of Little Nell?", one of the characters presumably dying of consumption.
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And when War of the Worlds was played on radio some people actually thought aliens were attacking. In recent history some people in USA thought the Russians were waging war in the state of Georgia.

adamsappel said:
Is it really that far a line from disappointment to being upset? Has no media ever moved you emotionally?
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This is actually a legit and very good question. I found that when, fictional stories are considered I am hard to be moved. Also, for some reason (good) animated stories tend to touch me significantly more then any other forms of fictional story telling. I still haven't seen When the Wind Blows, waiting for the perfect opportunity. Perhaps all these have to do with the fact that i liked I Am Legend very much until the girls showed up.

In contrast I feel very bad when I see living beings suffering in real life.

EDIT: Just to be clear. I enjoyed SoIaF very much. And it is a somewhat interesting story how i got hooked. When my brother was traveling to Hungary I gave him a list of SciFi books to buy. I told him if he can't find any of those, then buy the first and second books of this serial. You can guess that he bought SoIAF. Buy the time I was into the second book I ordered the four book pack from bookdepository and he supprised me with the fifth book. Since it took more then a month to arrive I read the pirated version of the third book on my laptop. And boy do I hate reading from the computer, but I just had to find out what will happen next.

So, now i have all the Eng versions of the books (DWD hardcover), first two books in Hungarian, and the first three books in Hungarian on my computers. I am tempted to say that the Hungarian versions are extraordinary, and that when it comes to fiction(<- scratch that, i meant fantasy) I like HU versions, and when it comes to SciFi i like ENG and Serbian versions. In that order.
 
W

WeAreStarStuff

Member
zeroshiki said:
I was so upset at the Red Feast that I had to put the book down and take a long walk. That was one of the few times any work of fiction had any physical effect on me.
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I never felt any rage during the Red Wedding. I think I mostly felt shock and disbelief. It’s as if I didn’t really believe what I was reading and was waiting for a ‘dream’ to end or something. The fact that Arya might have died when The Hound took a swing to her head bothered me more than all of the Red Wedding –I also hated Cat and was glad to see her go.. Also, during my second time reading the series, reading through the Red Wedding again was so damn enjoyable; the tension….my goodness the tension as it builds up. Amazing writing, just amazing.
 
S

Supermanisdead

Member
WeAreStarStuff said:
I never felt any rage during the Red Wedding. I think I mostly felt shock and disbelief. It’s as if I didn’t really believe what I was reading and was waiting for a ‘dream’ to end or something. The fact that Arya might have died when The Hound took a swing to her head bothered me more than all of the Red Wedding –I also hated Cat and was glad to see her go.. Also, during my second time reading the series, reading through the Red Wedding again was so damn enjoyable; the tension….my goodness the tension as it builds up. Amazing writing, just amazing.
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I think the TV show's RW is going to be a lot sadder, I find Robb a lot more sympathetic on TV than in the books.
 
B

bluemax

Banned
BruceLeeRoy said:
You felt he was a secondary character? Well your obviously right cause he died but I have been nursing this hope all this time Rob was going to be a pivotal piece of the conclusion of the books. He is the only real good thing that was left.
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Yes. He had no POV, and he clearly wasn't one of the chosen ones. Ostensibly these books are about how Westeros deals with the Others and the return of Dragons. Things like the War of the 5 Kings are just background noise meant to distract from the main plot.

Also when Robb says "I'm not dead yet mother!" after returning from his campaign its pretty fucking obvious he's gonna die. That's like foreshadowing 101 right there.
 
C

chiQ

Member
endre said:
Its ok to feel empathy for the characters, but to rage about it? Or be be upset about it? C'mon. To be anxious, or disappointed? Yes, I can go with that.
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I fall in love with well-written fictional characters. I invest a lot of emotion in them. I get genuinely upset when they die or suffer. I have cried a number of times throughout A Song of Fire & Ice. I guess that's the trade-off of being an inveterate dreamer. I become completely immersed in books, and have vivid imagery in my head as I read, but I think it makes them more traumatic too.
 
bengraven

bengraven

Member
Supermanisdead said:
I think the TV show's RW is going to be a lot sadder, I find Robb a lot more sympathetic on TV than in the books.
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I'm not sure. In the books he kind of felt more innocent (?) in a way? Even up until the end he was a kid playing a man's game.

In the show he's already become his father's son quite quickly and he's becoming such a badass that he's almost becoming "too much" of a badass. To the point of becoming kind of abrasive.
 
S

Supermanisdead

Member
bengraven said:
I'm not sure. In the books he kind of felt more innocent (?) in a way? Even up until the end he was a kid playing a man's game.

In the show he's already become his father's son quite quickly and he's becoming such a badass that he's almost becoming "too much" of a badass. To the point of becoming kind of abrasive.
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Yeah at the end of episode 10, he did for sure, but in the beginning he was crying and slamming his sword on a tree. And before that when Catelyn comes to the tent for the first time he's like "Mother!" really excitedly and everyone (including him) realize he sounded like a child. You're probably right and that's how he'll be in season 2. Maybe something about the actor just makes me feel bad.
 
E

endre

Member
chiQ said:
I fall in love with well-written fictional characters. I invest a lot of emotion in them. I get genuinely upset when they die or suffer. I have cried a number of times throughout A Song of Fire & Ice. I guess that's the trade-off of being an inveterate dreamer. I become completely immersed in books, and have vivid imagery in my head as I read, but I think it makes them more traumatic too.
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Well, the only way to respond to this is for me to ask for apologies if I offended anyone. I am simply unable to get that emotional while reading fiction. I could get that emotional when I know the story is real. For example, I cant remember the title, but I read a book from a person who spent the majority of WW2 in a Nazi concentration camp. When someones faith was decided by the flip of a finger...

I can sympathize of course and join the emotional roller coaster, but can't get the rage of some of the readers. I have to admit that when I wrote that post I was still under the impression of people sending hate mail to GRRM. Or even worse I can imagine Jack Gleeson receiving hate mail. I have another real life example (or two) but i dare not post it.

On the flip side I'll guess you are maybe a good artist?!
 
Emerson

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
Supermanisdead said:
I think the TV show's RW is going to be a lot sadder, I find Robb a lot more sympathetic on TV than in the books.
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Totally agree. We can already tell that the show is going to follow Robb until then whereas in the books he disappeared for long periods of time. Also clearly we're going to watch him fall in love with Jeyne which will only make it more upsetting. Finally, a well-shot TV scene with sad music will emotionally trump text 99 times out of 100.
 
C

chiQ

Member
endre said:
Well, the only way to respond to this is for me to ask for apologies if I offended anyone. I am simply unable to get that emotional while reading fiction. I could get that emotional when I know the story is real. For example, I cant remember the title, but I read a book from a person who spent the majority of WW2 in a Nazi concentration camp. When someones faith was decided by the flip of a finger...

I can sympathize of course and join the emotional roller coaster, but can't get the rage of some of the readers. I have to admit that when I wrote that post I was still under the impression of people sending hate mail to GRRM. Or even worse I can imagine Jack Gleeson receiving hate mail. I have another real life example (or two) but i dare not post it.

On the flip side I'll guess you are maybe a good artist?!
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You didn't offend me at all.

It is hard to sympathise with people who operate differently to yourself, so I totally see why it seems weird to you that people become quite emotional. I have and would never get vocally upset with a writer though. I get upset privately.

I am creative, but not in a controlled way. I can't create on demand. It's very visceral and flaky. I can paint solidly for a week, then won't do it again for months and months, but will write poems instead :)

I am incredibly invested in some of the characters. If Tyrion or Arya don't win out in the end there will be tears.
 
D

Dragon

Banned
Emerson said:
Totally agree. We can already tell that the show is going to follow Robb until then whereas in the books he disappeared for long periods of time. Also clearly we're going to watch him fall in love with Jeyne which will only make it more upsetting. Finally, a well-shot TV scene with sad music will emotionally trump text 99 times out of 100.
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Yeah people reacted emotionally to Ned's death but Robb's is way more shocking and has less buildup the first time you read it.
 
E

endre

Member
I agree, Robb is way more likable on the tv show. I wonder if they'll show his beheaded body with the wolf head in full detail.
 
J

jett

D-Member
endre said:
I agree, Robb is way more likable on the tv show. I wonder if they'll show his beheaded body with the wolf head in full detail.
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Probably not, that's only mentioned in passing, never actually "shown", unless I'm misremembering. Still, it left a horrible image in my head.
 
E

endre

Member
I think you are right. Though it is f uped, they should show it in a manner like Ned's head.
Disclaimer: I am not sadistic or anything like that, I just want the show to be different just as like the book is. If sexposition is acceptable so should be gruesome stuff like this.
 
D

Dragon

Banned
So was Brienne killed by Lady Stoneheart or is she leading Jaime to die in her place? I can't see her doing the latter since she's basically in love with the dude but *shrug*

As far as Robb, he never lost a battle except the one to control his cock.
 
A

aceface

Member
If HBO really wants to troll the audience with the second season, people are going to shit bricks when they think Bran and Rickon are dead. I can't wait to read the reactions.
 
Z

zeroshiki

Member
Robb dying absolutely slayed me.

My favorite scene in the whole series is still the King in the North scene followed by the Whispering Wood. To feel so helpless as Catelyn was when they were slaughtering the Northmen in that chapter was really upsetting. When she took hold of that Frey's cloak and felt the armor, I almost lost it.
 
T

tmdorsey

Member
zeroshiki said:
Robb dying absolutely slayed me.

My favorite scene in the whole series is still the King in the North scene followed by the Whispering Wood. To feel so helpless as Catelyn was when they were slaughtering the Northmen in that chapter was really upsetting. When she took hold of that Frey's cloak and felt the armor, I almost lost it.
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This is why I hope Lady Stoneheart gets her vengeance. The Freys need to pay seriously.
 
J

jett

D-Member
aceface said:
If HBO really wants to troll the audience with the second season, people are going to shit bricks when they think Bran and Rickon are dead. I can't wait to read the reactions.
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They absolutely must do that, it was the highlight of my ACOK reading experience. I wanted to throw the book into a fire.

And for ASOS they must also make the audience believe the hound kills Arya right after the Red Wedding. The episode should end with a behind the shoulder shot of the Hound coming at Arya with his axe, cutting to black just as the axe is coming down. It must simply be done. HBO viewers all over the world are gonna be depressed as fuck after that episode. :lol
 
P

Pkaz01

Member
zeroshiki said:
Which reminds me, that whole Arya chapter after the Red Wedding was depressing as fuck.

"My mother is in there" ;_;
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Worst one was when she questioned if her mother would take her back and then her chapters with the faceless men where she hides needle and realizes she has nothing left
 
J

jett

D-Member
Pkaz01 said:
Worst one was when she questioned if her mother would take her back and then her chapters with the faceless men where she hides needle and realizes she has nothing left
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God AGOT+ACOK+ASOS are so good. I remember so little about AFFC and ADWD. :/
 
H

Harry Potter

Banned
This was posted on WiC. It's from the House Greyjoy video. Extra crispy.

9EkYf.jpg
 
A

AngryMoth

Member
cubicle47b said:
George R.R. Martin reading part of a Victarion chapter from the next book. Starts around 30:30.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlJblxV3QHQ
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Posted a few pages ago ;)

(twow)
There isn't a particular line or anything, but I got the distinct feeling during this reading that the dusky woman is under orders to kill Victarion when the time is right. Euron's too cunning, and Victarion too naive and arrogant for him not to meet a gruesome end, and sooner rather than later.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
AngryMoth said:
Posted a few pages ago ;)

(twow)
There isn't a particular line or anything, but I got the distinct feeling during this reading that the dusky woman is under orders to kill Victarion when the time is right. Euron's too cunning, and Victarion too naive and arrogant for him not to meet a gruesome end, and sooner rather than later.
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Her reaction to the red priest is certainly interesting. But I wonder whether Euron is actually somewhere in Mereen already, or even on Victarion's ship. It struck me as weird that he would kill one brother (Balon) to secure the throne, then put such enormous trust in another brother (Victarion) who clearly hates him. Besides, if it's true the horn binds dragons to whoever claims the horn, I don't see how Euron could possibly believe Victarion will simply hand over control of them to him once he returns to the Iron Isles. He can't be that dumb, and has to be playing Victarion somehow.

I also believe it's important that Dany and Drogon aren't in Mereen. The two dragons in the city will be bound to whoever claims the horn, meaning we'll have some two on one action depending on how things play out.

OR maybe the red priest's goal is to kill Victarion, steal the horn, and give it to Dany
 
A

AngryMoth

Member
PhoenixDark said:
Her reaction to the red priest is certainly interesting. But I wonder whether Euron is actually somewhere in Mereen already, or even on Victarion's ship. It struck me as weird that he would kill one brother (Balon) to secure the throne, then put such enormous trust in another brother (Victarion) who clearly hates him. Besides, if it's true the horn binds dragons to whoever claims the horn, I don't see how Euron could possibly believe Victarion will simply hand over control of them to him once he returns to the Iron Isles. He can't be that dumb, and has to be playing Victarion somehow.

I also believe it's important that Dany and Drogon aren't in Mereen. The two dragons in the city will be bound to whoever claims the horn, meaning we'll have some two on one action depending on how things play out.

OR maybe the red priest's goal is to kill Victarion, steal the horn, and give it to Dany
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Don't have my copy of ADWD to check stuff but from what I remember Bennero believes Dany is a saviour and Moqorro had the dream about the great other being kraken or something (or was that supposed to be bloodraven?) so I'm pretty sure Moqorro doesn't plan on letting anyone steal Dany's dragons

Don't know if this stuff needs spoilering but its partially informed by twow reading so better to be safe.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
AngryMoth said:
Don't have my copy of ADWD to check stuff but from what I remember Bennero believes Dany is a saviour and Moqorro had the dream about the great other being kraken or something (or was that supposed to be bloodraven?) so I'm pretty sure Moqorro doesn't plan on letting anyone steal Dany's dragons

Don't know if this stuff needs spoilering but its partially informed by twow reading so better to be safe.
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He has a vision of a one eyed kraken sailing, which seems to suggest the idea that Euron is closer than Victarion thinks.
 
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