No that would be too obvious. Even the few people who don't understand would go on google to find out what it was and get spoiled. The best place for it is probably as the last scene of episode 9 or first scene of episode 10 assuming that Red Wedding is in season 3.
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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No that would be too obvious. Even the few people who don't understand would go on google to find out what it was and get spoiled. The best place for it is probably as the last scene of episode 9 or first scene of episode 10 assuming that Red Wedding is in season 3.
That sounds hot as hell.
bengraven
Member
Thought about how it could end if they don't get a Season 5. You need a bittersweet, but conclusive ending. Something that says "this is the status quo from now on", no real cliffhangers, and just a hint that if they got a Season 5 there could more intrigue.
So I picture the final scenes as almost being a montage. The "bittersweet victory" montage.
Jon is proclaimed Lord Commander, he's being hoisted around by his friends and you see a shot of Stannis on a large throne-like chair, seated a bit above the rest of the crowd, as a subtle hint that he's the 800 pound elephant in the room. Thorne and Slint move their heads close to each other and begin whispering. Maybe a shot of Jon in Mormont's office, seating himself at the desk (yes, I know in the books it's destroyed and he uses Noye's armory, but you need to telegraph the story to TV viewers).
Dani is proclaiming a freedom speech to her people in Mereen with Barristan, Belwas, and Daario behind her. Some people cheer loudly. She sits down in her throne on the pyramid, overlooking the crowds. Barristan moves up near her. How long will we remain, your highness? I will not leave so quickly, she says, I intend to rule here. The camera either pans from her or swipes to another shot of two crooked looking men with anger and hatred on their faces looking up at her on high.
Double funeral for Joff and Tywin with Cersei in her mourning robes. We already saw Tyrion get on a boat and to freedom. She returns to the throne room and throws her mourning robes off and looks around the nearly empty throne room. Tommen is here with her, on the floor playing with his kittens. She walks up slowly to the top of the dai and sits down on the Iron Throne. Her face is one of mourning, but there's a hint of victory and smug smile there. We pan away from her on the throne, very slowly, eventually showing the "king" on the floor like a child and the true queen is sitting on the Iron Throne. Margaery walks into frame and kneels by Tommen, saying "hello my little husband...".
Fade to black.
A Lannister, maybe Lancel or Alton, is riding into a camp of the Brotherhood with banners. He proclaims that the North is under Bolton control and the Riverlands are the Freys and that these men are to disperse and release the Frey and Lannister hostages they have. He suddenly realizes as he looks up that the hostages are all dead and hanging from the trees around him. He starts to fume, but this is a front as he's obviously terrified when a cloaked figure walks out. It leans in on a Brotherhood knight and whispers something. We see a noose brought forth as warriors grab the Lannister and hold him. As he's being fitted for his noose, screaming, the cloak is pulled down and we see a zombified Catelyn Stark. We hear the Brotherhood screaming "the North remembers, the North remembers" as we fade to black on Cat's dead face.
End titles.
(after the titles, we get a card that says "finish the series in the official continuations of the show, written by show creator George R. R. Martin! Starting with Feast of Crows and A Dance with Dragons!)
Man, Martin puts so much density into his novels - every line, even those that sound like a throwaway, could be an "easter egg" to another part.
His books are loaded with more secrets and shocking trivia than any videogame I've ever played.
So yeah, it's almost a game at this point.
So I picture the final scenes as almost being a montage. The "bittersweet victory" montage.
Jon is proclaimed Lord Commander, he's being hoisted around by his friends and you see a shot of Stannis on a large throne-like chair, seated a bit above the rest of the crowd, as a subtle hint that he's the 800 pound elephant in the room. Thorne and Slint move their heads close to each other and begin whispering. Maybe a shot of Jon in Mormont's office, seating himself at the desk (yes, I know in the books it's destroyed and he uses Noye's armory, but you need to telegraph the story to TV viewers).
Dani is proclaiming a freedom speech to her people in Mereen with Barristan, Belwas, and Daario behind her. Some people cheer loudly. She sits down in her throne on the pyramid, overlooking the crowds. Barristan moves up near her. How long will we remain, your highness? I will not leave so quickly, she says, I intend to rule here. The camera either pans from her or swipes to another shot of two crooked looking men with anger and hatred on their faces looking up at her on high.
Double funeral for Joff and Tywin with Cersei in her mourning robes. We already saw Tyrion get on a boat and to freedom. She returns to the throne room and throws her mourning robes off and looks around the nearly empty throne room. Tommen is here with her, on the floor playing with his kittens. She walks up slowly to the top of the dai and sits down on the Iron Throne. Her face is one of mourning, but there's a hint of victory and smug smile there. We pan away from her on the throne, very slowly, eventually showing the "king" on the floor like a child and the true queen is sitting on the Iron Throne. Margaery walks into frame and kneels by Tommen, saying "hello my little husband...".
Fade to black.
A Lannister, maybe Lancel or Alton, is riding into a camp of the Brotherhood with banners. He proclaims that the North is under Bolton control and the Riverlands are the Freys and that these men are to disperse and release the Frey and Lannister hostages they have. He suddenly realizes as he looks up that the hostages are all dead and hanging from the trees around him. He starts to fume, but this is a front as he's obviously terrified when a cloaked figure walks out. It leans in on a Brotherhood knight and whispers something. We see a noose brought forth as warriors grab the Lannister and hold him. As he's being fitted for his noose, screaming, the cloak is pulled down and we see a zombified Catelyn Stark. We hear the Brotherhood screaming "the North remembers, the North remembers" as we fade to black on Cat's dead face.
End titles.
(after the titles, we get a card that says "finish the series in the official continuations of the show, written by show creator George R. R. Martin! Starting with Feast of Crows and A Dance with Dragons!)
Man, Martin puts so much density into his novels - every line, even those that sound like a throwaway, could be an "easter egg" to another part.
His books are loaded with more secrets and shocking trivia than any videogame I've ever played.
So yeah, it's almost a game at this point.
Because Blackfyre loyalists believe Daemon was Aegon IV's rightful heir. So what Varys said is true...from a certain point of view.
If it really is the Blackfyres I want to know what is so compelling that they are still at it, trying to get this throne. Was Daemon really that much better than Daeron? I know he was better looking but if George does go down this route I want to know why it is valuable to me as a reader to learn about these people. Also this story is going to end up being a joke if every character is a secret Targaryen.
My grip with Griffin wasn't exactly the whole "secret Targaryen" thing since it was heavily foreshadowed in the previous books, but rather why they did not introduced him earlier. As I have said before, the editing of the latter books has been poor, not the quality of the writting.
And about Dany, sorry, but there's something wrong when even I can think right now of several more expeditive yet coherent ways to cut the Meerense knot than the final route that Martin took (and without restorting to ZOMG magic). My main gripe with the series is that there's still so much more left to do. I mean:
- Resolve the Meerense knot once for all
- Dany reaching Westeros trought the shadow lands of Asshai
- Resolve the Stannis offensive against Ramsay
- Show what the hell happens to Jon
- The whole Azor Azahi prophecy
- Showing the Others
- Davos rescuing Bran
- The Braavosi intervention on the Westeros war
- Catelyn undead adventures
- Ayra's acting as a full flegded faceless man, possible murder attempt against Jon / Azor Azahi?
- Griffin rise (or fall)
- Tyrion finally meeting Daenerys
- The Other's heavily foreshadowed offensive
- The Other's defeat (or not)
In short, you would need far more than two books to tell all that, even if said books are two Storms of Swords.
And about Dany, sorry, but there's something wrong when even I can think right now of several more expeditive yet coherent ways to cut the Meerense knot than the final route that Martin took (and without restorting to ZOMG magic). My main gripe with the series is that there's still so much more left to do. I mean:
- Resolve the Meerense knot once for all
- Dany reaching Westeros trought the shadow lands of Asshai
- Resolve the Stannis offensive against Ramsay
- Show what the hell happens to Jon
- The whole Azor Azahi prophecy
- Showing the Others
- Davos rescuing Bran
- The Braavosi intervention on the Westeros war
- Catelyn undead adventures
- Ayra's acting as a full flegded faceless man, possible murder attempt against Jon / Azor Azahi?
- Griffin rise (or fall)
- Tyrion finally meeting Daenerys
- The Other's heavily foreshadowed offensive
- The Other's defeat (or not)
In short, you would need far more than two books to tell all that, even if said books are two Storms of Swords.
Steelyuhas
Member
Don't you mean Davos rescuing Rickon?
Pollux
Member
Just to clarify, the Blackfyres are just a cadet branch of House Targaryen? Meaning that if the took the Iron Throne they would still be Targaryens and not Blackfyres....
I hope that made sense.
Supermanisdead
Member
I care greatly. Rickon ~King in the North~
vitaminwateryum
corporate swill
I've only used Audible, but they seem like one of the better places to buy from. You can get an audiobook for free if you sign up for their 14-day free trial, as well.
Also, you can use their app on your phone (I would think ipad as well) and it's able to track your progress through the book as you listen.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Agreed 100% on editing. Editors are often friends with their writers, but I really think Martin's friendship with his has hurt the series. This is the time when the story needs severe focus. It's hard for me to fathom that no one told Martin that Dany's chapters were extremely repetitive in Dance, or that ending a book without a proper climax doesn't work - especially with this series. Consider the climax moments of the previous books:
-GOT: birth of Dany's dragons
-ACOK: Battle Of the Blackwater
-ASOS: hell, choose one
-AFFC: I'm not sure there is one; the arrest of Cersei perhaps
Jon's "death" feels so anti-climatic to most people because it's obvious he's not dead. Dany regaining control of Drogon also falls flat given the amount of time it took to get to that point, not to mention how bad that last Dany chapter is before that moment.
While I can understand the battle Of Winterfell not being in Dance, it really makes little sense that the battle for Meereen didn't at least get one chapter. Dany's POV could have been condensed to allow time for her to kill Jhogo, take command of the Khalasar, and at least begin the march toward Meereen; at the same time, another Barriston chapter detailing more of the siege would have been possible.
-GOT: birth of Dany's dragons
-ACOK: Battle Of the Blackwater
-ASOS: hell, choose one
-AFFC: I'm not sure there is one; the arrest of Cersei perhaps
Jon's "death" feels so anti-climatic to most people because it's obvious he's not dead. Dany regaining control of Drogon also falls flat given the amount of time it took to get to that point, not to mention how bad that last Dany chapter is before that moment.
While I can understand the battle Of Winterfell not being in Dance, it really makes little sense that the battle for Meereen didn't at least get one chapter. Dany's POV could have been condensed to allow time for her to kill Jhogo, take command of the Khalasar, and at least begin the march toward Meereen; at the same time, another Barriston chapter detailing more of the siege would have been possible.
I'm pretty certain they'll condense Books 4 and 5 into one season. Much of the stuff with Dany daydreaming about blue beards can be stuffed into one scene or disregarded entirely. The show already has no problem pacing Cersei, Jamie's and Tyrions arcs. I'm afraid Dorne might be cut out entirely though, for better or worse. All they really need to say is that they side with the Targaryens when Dany comes. The most impact the Martells have ever had on the story was the release of the dragons in Meereen, and that can be done by anyone really.
EDIT: And damn, if they really do stuff AFFC and ADWD into one season, GRRM needs to release TWOW by April of 2014, and ADOS a year after that.
How was the secret Targ heavily foreshadowed? I've only read through once, so I may have missed it, but the only foreshadowing I caught was the "mummer's dragon". It just seems like it would've been so easy to slip in Illyrio making a vague reference to "the boy" or something in his Book 1 convo with Varys if you really wanted to hint at it. That scene referenced so much of what was to become ADwD but made no reference to Aegon.
As for Varys himself, I hope the Varys Blackfyre theories don't end up being true. It would be pretty lame to have the whole series hinge on a historical even that isn't really clearly explained outside of the short stories. And he just doesn't seem like someone who would be so motivated by family loyalty. I really just believe Varys when he says he wants what's good for the realm. That and his story about how he hates magic are really the only times I've ever felt like he's being earnest. I think he really believes that he can make things better for everyone by having this boy he's raised to be a perfect king. The Targaryen name is just the only way he has to make the people accept his perfect king.
Steelyuhas
Member
KING IN THE NORTH
Realizing that Rickon is an important character in ADWD was fucking awesome.
I am a member of Audible. It costs me $14 a month and I get a free book each month, of any value. It's a quit anytime you like arrangement, so if you do the free trial deal you get one book free. You just have to remember to quit before the month rolls over.
They don't need to cut it down to two seasons, there is no reason for them to. If anything they need to buy themselves more time for George to write the books. The Winds of Winter by 2014 is still a bit optimistic. I'm sticking to my 2016 prediction. Even if he were to release it by 2014 it would be all the more reason for them to make two seasons to cover ADWD/AFFC just in case he can finish book 7 by 2017 or 2018 and they can film the entire series. Oh and lol at A Dream of Spring one year after Winds of Winter.
arglebargle
Member
PhoenixDark
Banned
"The North Remembers" was the best part of ADWD by a mile. Gave me goose bumps. Too bad I bet Davos finds Rickon is fucked up some how - maybe Osha introduces him to Shaggy Dog and says "this is Rickon Stark"
arglebargle
Member
ive only read through the series once, but i reread this chapter the other day just because of how good i remember it being and how much people talk about it on here. manderly really is a great character, and the whole set up with davos is good too.
The thing is that there is no emotional attachment whatsoever to Rickon.
Sansa, Arya, or Bran triumphing over evil and ruling the North? Awesome. It would be a great end to what has been an incredible journey for each of them. But Rickon? Who the fuck is he? He's had like two speaking lines in the entire series. He has zero characterization. Building him into a major character at this point would take 100+ pages that could be much better used on other characters.
Rickon might make a good plot device, but if he turns out to be a major character at this point in the series, GRRM has lost it.
Sansa, Arya, or Bran triumphing over evil and ruling the North? Awesome. It would be a great end to what has been an incredible journey for each of them. But Rickon? Who the fuck is he? He's had like two speaking lines in the entire series. He has zero characterization. Building him into a major character at this point would take 100+ pages that could be much better used on other characters.
Rickon might make a good plot device, but if he turns out to be a major character at this point in the series, GRRM has lost it.
I agree with puddles. Similar to what GRRM did with Aegon.. we all know he isn't going to be king thats bull these characters wouldn't be POVs so someone like Aegon or Rickon can become king. Would be too much of a who gives a shit ending.
I wouldn't mind all the starks reuniting because people were trying to win the north for the starks but I wouldn't want him to be lord of winterfell instead of Bran or even Jon.
I wouldn't mind all the starks reuniting because people were trying to win the north for the starks but I wouldn't want him to be lord of winterfell instead of Bran or even Jon.
arglebargle
Member
puddles initially said they should drop the rickon narrative. i disagree with that. i dont necessarily think he should or will end up as king, though i guess i see how you could get that from my post. rickon is an important piece in the war for the north.
Steelyuhas
Member
The North Remembers.
Yeah pretty much. Rickon has to be a plot device, and not a major character.
Honestly though, after ADWD, I realized that at this point, the only thing I care about if the Starks revenge and ruling the north at the end of the series (hopefully as a separate kingdom).
Is Westeros actually better off with the North splitting and forming an independent kingdom? I know it sounds great because most of us are on team Stark and we get all excited when we hear someone say "King in the North" but there is no guarantee that the descendants of the current Starks will be as good as Ned and his family were. The Starks are generally speaking more noble but they have had their bad guys and unworthy rulers. I can see both positives and negatives to the North actually becoming independent.
I actually think he might be under contractual obligation to finish the books before the series catches up. He already has to write an episode per season. Contracts on licensed material tend to be really forward thinking. JK Rowling for example had to finish the books before the movies caught up. I would imagine HBO did the same with GRRM.
Would George sign something like that? Also wouldn't someone have leaked it if he did? Besides I don't think HBO or David and Dan went into this thinking they would do the whole series. The goal was to get to the Red Wedding and finish off Storm of Swords. Regardless I think we are getting two seasons for Dance with Dragons and Feast for Crows adaptation if they choose to do it.
It's inevitable the series will overtake the books with the pace George writes. I just hope HBO has permission to take the show in a completely different direction after they catch up (or hell, after they reach the end of ASoS) and give the series a proper ending. Hell, it may be the closest thing to an ending ASoIaF ever gets.
Basileus777
Member
They aren't going to mess with the show to stall things for books that
I don't imagine there's any way GRRM signed anything like that. And the one episode per season he writes is a contractual obligation? Where does that come from?
He can't be a major character, he's still a really young kid.
Basileus777
Member
Rickon's had like 2 Davos chapters devoted to his "plotline," there's a ton of other stuff you'd cut before that.
Yeah but there is more than enough material from the books to do AFFC/ADWD in two seasons. It would be very rushed in one and if the ratings continue to be good they have no real incentive to do it in one season.
Takamura-San
Member
Does anyone have any hopes for what should be the prologue for TWOW?
I for one would hope it would be from the perspective from one of the people from the black that organized the attack/murder of Jon.
A chapter leading to that would be great IMO.
I for one would hope it would be from the perspective from one of the people from the black that organized the attack/murder of Jon.
A chapter leading to that would be great IMO.
Regarding the show catching up with the novels:
http://entertainment.time.com/2011/04/15/george-r-r-martin-on-game-of-thrones-from-book-to-tv/
George R.R. Martin said:
http://entertainment.time.com/2011/04/15/george-r-r-martin-on-game-of-thrones-from-book-to-tv/
LegendofJoe
Member
I've been thinking about Winds of Winter today and how many pages that will have to be
devoted to finishing up the plot lines introduced in ADwD. I think there will have to be at least 6 POV chapters:
1 of Melisandre to cover the aftermath of the stabbing
1 or 2 for Theon/Asha to cover the Battle for Winterfell
1 or 2 for Barristan and/or Tyrion to tell us what is happening in Mereen
1 for Dany to tell us what happens when she returns to Mereen
1 for for Jaime/Brienne to tell us what happened to them
That should add up to more or less 100 pages. What does everyone else think?
Edit: That doesn't even mention the other POV chapters he's already written, such as Arienne, Damp Hair. and Sansa. That gives George a HUGE headstart on Winds. He's got at least 150 pages of material that should almost write itself. There's also the fallout after these events concluse that should be easier to write than having to come up with brand new plot lines. George should be able to get on a roll with this much of a head start, who knows maybe that's what his editor had in mind all along?
devoted to finishing up the plot lines introduced in ADwD. I think there will have to be at least 6 POV chapters:
1 of Melisandre to cover the aftermath of the stabbing
1 or 2 for Theon/Asha to cover the Battle for Winterfell
1 or 2 for Barristan and/or Tyrion to tell us what is happening in Mereen
1 for Dany to tell us what happens when she returns to Mereen
1 for for Jaime/Brienne to tell us what happened to them
That should add up to more or less 100 pages. What does everyone else think?
Edit: That doesn't even mention the other POV chapters he's already written, such as Arienne, Damp Hair. and Sansa. That gives George a HUGE headstart on Winds. He's got at least 150 pages of material that should almost write itself. There's also the fallout after these events concluse that should be easier to write than having to come up with brand new plot lines. George should be able to get on a roll with this much of a head start, who knows maybe that's what his editor had in mind all along?
So yeah he seems to be expecting at least two seasons for AFFC/ADWD and says that he will be done before they can catch up. So the due date to finish all the books in his mind has to be 2017 or 2018, or am I counting wrong?
PhoenixDark
Banned
I wouldn't be surprised if Dany has 100 pages before she even returns to Meereen...
The Theon TWOW chapter suggests he might die but you bring up an interesting point about seeing the battle from someone's POV. If he does get executed/sacrificed, I guess we'll see it from Asha's POV.
I really hope a lot of these secondary characters like Theon, Asha, etc die in TWOW to lower the POV count and streamline things.
Fiftyeight
Neo Member
Can someone throw me a refresher on the whole Rickon and Davos thing?
The only thing I recall is Davos being sent to rescue one of the Stark boys. He was shown a map and told where to go and he was extremely displeased/terrified by it. I don't remember who it was who ordered him to go, and I don't even recall Rickon being mentioned. I had always just assumed Davos was going to retrieve Bran.
The only thing I recall is Davos being sent to rescue one of the Stark boys. He was shown a map and told where to go and he was extremely displeased/terrified by it. I don't remember who it was who ordered him to go, and I don't even recall Rickon being mentioned. I had always just assumed Davos was going to retrieve Bran.
LegendofJoe
Member
Kill me now
GRRM has talked about combining POVs and killing off characters for the remaining books, so that's definitely going to happen. Takers on who is going to eat dirt and/or fire in WoW?
My money is on Theon, Barristan, Damp Hair, and Brienne (unfortunately). Although I would love George forever if Dany eats it early in Winds, I know it's not going to happen.
bodyofanamerican
Member
Yep, 2017. I still think it's gonna get super fluid once season 3 is finished, because that's when you have event after event after event that ends Storm, working Theon and Ramsay into the plot and then moving into AFFC/ADWD proper. Regarding Dance and Feast though, there is a TON of fat to cut there IMO, so if I were GRRM, I'd be planning on 2016.
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
disgunbegood.gif
Ideal situation is no Dany povs until after she returns to mereen with the khalasar, having taken it over off screen. /stupiddream
I agree with those first 4. Sadly, Barristan will probably die of old age. Hopefully Damphair gets killed by Euron. Theon and Brienne are in big danger too, I'll be very sad to see them go though. Also, Victarion is totally a goner, preferably death by dragon. Lastly, Jon Con is already doomed by his greyscale, and is likely to go out in some act of desperate heroism.
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