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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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How could anyone have predicted Aegon before ADWD came out?
Basileus777
Member
Aegon baby swap theories have been around since at least ACOK, it an old staple like Tyrion being a Targ or Ashara Dayne being alive.
GRRM's original plan when he finished ASOS was to have Dany invade Westeros by book 4, resolving that war in book 6 with the ending of the series. So he has a story to tell of Dany in Westeros that justifies 3 books worth of content. We're now going into book 6 and Dany finally has the means to invade using Victarion's fleet, the Unsullied and possibly Jhaqo's khalassar. It will still take her a whole book to mop up on Meereen and sail west (or east if she's going around the world like the prophecy implies). So then we'll be in book 7 and she lands to claim the Iron Throne, and unfold GRRM's 3 books of Dany in Westeros. Does he really think he'll live long enough to write another 4 books?
First it was gonna be 3 books. Then it was 6. Now it's 7 and he's nowhere close to bridge Dany to Westeros. At this point they might wrap the show before the books are done, or he'll die of fat.
First it was gonna be 3 books. Then it was 6. Now it's 7 and he's nowhere close to bridge Dany to Westeros. At this point they might wrap the show before the books are done, or he'll die of fat.
Basileus777
Member
Might? I'd say it's a certainty, the show isn't going to be running into the late 2010s and into 2020s like the books will.
He might have changed his story, maybe he only needs her to be in Westeros for a short time now. That's why he showed her ruling at Meereen and failing, maybe that is what he had in mind for her at Westeros.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
This. Finding out that GRRM basically pulled yet another claimant to the throne out of his arse (and one who made Dany's claim moot to boot) four books in pissed me off something shocking.
My working theory is that Aegon isn't actually who he's claimed to be, but is a Targaryen offshoot, like the Blackfyres and Valerions (sp?).
PhoenixDark
Banned
Personally I hope he goes back to the GoT approach to Dany's chapters and skips large periods of time between each chapter. We don't need to know every minute detail as Dany sails east west south wherever. Aegon got to Westeros in no time, I see no reason for it to take Dany hundreds of pages of detail to get there.
Her story was never really running side by side with the Westeros stuff anyway, it wouldn't hurt to skip some time and also show her from Tyrion's perspective for awhile (assuming they travel together). For instance after the Meereen stuff is resolved in a mixture of Dany, Tyrion, Barriston, and Victarion chapters:
1 chapter: leaving Meereen
2-3 chapters: in Asshai
2-3 chapters: some other location
2-3 Tyrion chapters to fill in the gaps
Then bam, she's in Westeros at the end of the book. By the time she gets there a lot of changes would have been made, which would make up most of the book: the North could largely be settled with the Boltons victorious or Stannis victorious, we would have seen Aegon's quick rise (or fall), Littlefinger's plan, Davos bringing back Rickon perhaps, Bran's exposition, etc. Having 20-30 Dany chapters would only slow things to a crawl, there's no point in that. As with GoT, they should be used in part to note the passage of time.
I think Martin took AFFC's criticism to heart too much, and figured "hey, I'll give them a shit ton of Dany, Jon, and Tyrion! Well it worked for Jon, and for Tyrion depending on who you ask (I loved his chapters) but most agree Dany had the weakest POVs. I still argue they were not "bad," just tedious and often repetitive.
Her story was never really running side by side with the Westeros stuff anyway, it wouldn't hurt to skip some time and also show her from Tyrion's perspective for awhile (assuming they travel together). For instance after the Meereen stuff is resolved in a mixture of Dany, Tyrion, Barriston, and Victarion chapters:
1 chapter: leaving Meereen
2-3 chapters: in Asshai
2-3 chapters: some other location
2-3 Tyrion chapters to fill in the gaps
Then bam, she's in Westeros at the end of the book. By the time she gets there a lot of changes would have been made, which would make up most of the book: the North could largely be settled with the Boltons victorious or Stannis victorious, we would have seen Aegon's quick rise (or fall), Littlefinger's plan, Davos bringing back Rickon perhaps, Bran's exposition, etc. Having 20-30 Dany chapters would only slow things to a crawl, there's no point in that. As with GoT, they should be used in part to note the passage of time.
I think Martin took AFFC's criticism to heart too much, and figured "hey, I'll give them a shit ton of Dany, Jon, and Tyrion! Well it worked for Jon, and for Tyrion depending on who you ask (I loved his chapters) but most agree Dany had the weakest POVs. I still argue they were not "bad," just tedious and often repetitive.
Basileus777
Member
I always dismissed those Aegon theories as crackpot, I thought GRRM would never do something like that. Well, after ADWD I can't dismiss many theories out of hand, in fact I expect more soap opera type twists in the future.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Eh...the prophecy of the murmer's dragon dates back to ACOK, it's nothing new. There's almost no way Aegon is a real Targ.
At the end of Winds of Winter Dany is going to get on a ship to sail to Westeros. At the opening of Dream of Spring she is going to ask the ship's captain how much more time it will take and he will tell her that they are lost. She lands in Westeros in the epilogue of the final book.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Or they get lost and her face gets burned off by one of the dragons thus forcing her to wear a mask, and she finally reaches land. At which point they ship wreck and she finds herself in Quarth telling a young girl with silver hair that she must go east before she goes west
endlessflood
Member
There have only been a few things that really annoyed me about the series, but suddenly introducing Aegon is one of them. It needed to be foreshadowed a long time before it was revealed, but it felt like it was just dropped in our laps. In a story which already had way too many players why Martin felt the need to introduce another major one so late in the piece is beyond me.
The other things that have shitted me were Gendry being introduced as a character and then suddenly being discarded for no apparent reason, and the whole concept of the Unsullied being an army that Dany got by clicking her fingers. That just seemed way too contrived and artificial even for a fantasy series. And finally Jon becoming Lord Commander, especially the manner in which it happened, just seemed way too sloppy and clichéd.
Those elements all made me feel like Martin really didn't have much of a plan and was throwing things together as he wrote them. At times when he should have been tightening the story up instead it feels like the threads have gotten looser and looser. I just don't see how he can bring them together now in a way that won't feel like we're being cheated and the story rushed.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
Varys (and thereby Aegon) being a Blackfyre makes an awful lot of sense. The blood-magic surrounding the confiscation of his manhood in becoming a eunuch points to some kind of Targ connection (Melisandre keeps pointing out that the blood of kings is a powerful ingredient for magic). And it would explain why he indulged the Mad King's paranoia and let the realm spiral out of Targ control, believing that he was working toward the stability of the realm. But why would he lie to Kevan Lannister, who was about to be very dead? Perhaps he truly does feel like he fucked up and wants to make things right. Or maybe he saw the Mad King's reign as poisoned and wanted to make a change, but was unable to rope Rhaegar into his plans, and therefore allowed the Usurper victory to play out with a long game in mind.
Euron might actually have a bigger role to play in the end-game, though. I saw some speculation that Marwyn, the Citadel maester, could be on the way to Dany with nefarious intent. Well, let's not forget that Jaqen H'ghar is also posing as a Citadel novice. If there's a threat to the dragons, I think a death cult like The Faceless Men might be at the forefront of it. Since we know Euron likely used the Faceless Men to off Balon, then maybe Jaqen finding out a way to neutralize or control the dragons in the Citadel is his Plan B in case Victarion using the Dragon Horn to put Dany and the dragons to heel goes awry. Or those could all just be independent moving parts and Euron is simply the unstable mad-man he appears to be. Who knows if he even landed in Valyria?
I'll disagree. The series is extremely dense, but in that denseness you can feel Martin positioning all these divergent pieces toward a cohesive narrative conclusion. That is not the bloat of mid-volume WoT or, in its later volumes, Malazan. If the narrative arch of the first three books are indicative of how Martin's going about things, then AFFC/ADWD was the set-up, WoW will elevate the stakes with significant interaction and ADoS will show the consequences with major events. Martin saying there'll be no new POVs from here on out - except for prologue/epilogue ones - seals it. (WoW Opening)
But I wouldn't be surprised if he needs another book for a two-part conclusion or middle phase.
Euron might actually have a bigger role to play in the end-game, though. I saw some speculation that Marwyn, the Citadel maester, could be on the way to Dany with nefarious intent. Well, let's not forget that Jaqen H'ghar is also posing as a Citadel novice. If there's a threat to the dragons, I think a death cult like The Faceless Men might be at the forefront of it. Since we know Euron likely used the Faceless Men to off Balon, then maybe Jaqen finding out a way to neutralize or control the dragons in the Citadel is his Plan B in case Victarion using the Dragon Horn to put Dany and the dragons to heel goes awry. Or those could all just be independent moving parts and Euron is simply the unstable mad-man he appears to be. Who knows if he even landed in Valyria?
Kem0sabe said:The series has gotten progressively more bogged down in side stories and progressing too slowly. It´s starting to remind me of the Wheel of Time
I'll disagree. The series is extremely dense, but in that denseness you can feel Martin positioning all these divergent pieces toward a cohesive narrative conclusion. That is not the bloat of mid-volume WoT or, in its later volumes, Malazan. If the narrative arch of the first three books are indicative of how Martin's going about things, then AFFC/ADWD was the set-up, WoW will elevate the stakes with significant interaction and ADoS will show the consequences with major events. Martin saying there'll be no new POVs from here on out - except for prologue/epilogue ones - seals it. (WoW Opening)
Arianne Martell on her way to meet Aegon is a good pay-off for all those Dorne chapters already.
The problem with the series spiraling from a trilogy to an envisioned 9-10 book saga is that Martin is a notoriously slow writer, taking his age, his involvement with the TV series and the pace of writing for the books up to now, i very much doubt we will see an end to this penned by his own hand.
Take Jordan as an example, the poor man died before he had the chance to reign in and finish the WoT series.
Anyways, im all for more Game of Thrones books, i love the setting and style of writing, it´s just that i want it to have a decent payoff for all the time invested reading it and not spend a lifetime waiting for the next book to move the story slightly forward.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
When did this happen?
Tim the Wiz
Banned
The problem with the series spiraling from a trilogy to an envisioned 9-10 book saga is that Martin is a notoriously slow writer, taking his age, his involvement with the TV series and the pace of writing for the books up to now, i very much doubt we will see an end to this penned by his own hand.
Take Jordan as an example, the poor man died before he had the chance to reign in and finish the WoT series.
Anyways, im all for more Game of Thrones books, i love the setting and style of writing, it´s just that i want it to have a decent payoff for all the time invested reading it and not spend a lifetime waiting for the next book to move the story slightly forward.
Where is this "9-10 book saga" coming from? A Song of Ice and Fire has obviously become a series of two cycles: GoT -> ACoK -> ASoS // AFFC/ADWD -> WoW/?? -> ADoS/?? The pieces on the board are pretty much set and - again - Martin saying there'll be no new POVs should be encouraging news. Now the game just needs to be played to its conclusion.
I think Robert Jordan's death and Pratchett's diagnosis has brought an over-wrought amount of pessimism into fandom. Jordan died from a pretty rare illness and Pratchett is desperately unlucky, too. Martin is 63 and is, best case scenario, two or three books and more or less several years away from completion. I very much doubt he'll die before he finishes the series.
The Mad King hired Varys as his spymaster from Pentos in the throes of paranoia about his family and subjects. Varys didn't seem to curb this much and counselled Aerys that Rhaegar might be planning to move against him. However, he also advised Aerys not to open the gates of King's Landing to Tywin Lannister after Robert won out at the Trident. Even as a Blackfyre seeking the destruction of Aerys's reign, he probably didn't want to see Tywin sack King's Landing.
I think Arya and Dany are going to meet and maybe Dany will help Arya remember who she is. They will have a girl power moment and then be killed by the faceless men.
Or maybe Arya and Dany will kill their enemies with dragons and sail to the Wall where they meet up with Jon and rescue Bran and then head back to Winterfell. Where they are killed by Ramsay Bolton who is hiding in the crypts.
Or maybe Arya and Dany will kill their enemies with dragons and sail to the Wall where they meet up with Jon and rescue Bran and then head back to Winterfell.
Where they are killed by Ramsay Bolton who is hiding in the crypts. 
bengraven
Member
Oh wow, I wasn't really thinking of Varys as a Blackfyre supporter, just a supporter of the Targ bloodline in a whole.
You might be right. The books and especially the short stories put a LOT of spotlight on the Blackfyre rebellions - possibly more information than even Robert's Rebellion. I can see it being the major event that shapes the last couple books.
It would definitely help us keep track. There are wayyyyy too many factions in this series.
I had a theory that the Others and Children were actually co-conspiring so color me shocked when we finally, FINALLY got some Children. But no more outlook of the Others.
bengraven
Member
Well he is bald. "Varys" sounds kind of Valyrian. Like "Rhaenys" or "Aerys".
Someone made a point about how that mage burned his testicles in a fire and did magic - similar to Melisandre's magic when she burns kings.
(Holy shit. Or: what if he's actually a chick?)
(oh it's going to get worse man. I'm re-reading Dance now - my bugfuck theories aren't done)
I agree with you. I think George is enjoying the journey a bit too much. End a chapter with someone setting out and start a chapter with them getting there. We've already seen almost all of the Western world and a huge chunk of the East. I don't think we care as much anymore about the sights in between.
That said, Tyrion's chapters on the river are still my favorites in Dance.
I don't know if it's about keeping his family on the throne for selfish purposes. It's about the realm. I think he truly believes a Targ on the throne is for the best. He did live through several kings after all.
As for his birds, I don't know. Maybe he sends them off to become eunich slaves to Illyrio or unsullied. Somewhere to get them to shut up. Still pretty horrible, but considering the rules of this world, not as bad.
Well it is awfully convenient that whatever is best for the realm just happens to be another Blackfyre like himself. I think maybe he has convinced himself that what he is doing is best for the realm but underneath he has shitty ambitions to restore his line of the family. I guess I just wan't to know what is so compelling about the Blackfyres that inspires such strong loyalty from someone like Varys aside from being related to them. I also want to know why we as readers should care about this Targaryen civil war aside from the fact that it explains the motivations of certain characters.
The House of the Undying and the vision of the Mummer's Dragon. I predicted a false Aegon would show up before ADwD, although I incorrectly believed it would be Aurane Waters and not a new character.
I still wouldn't be surprised if Aurane Waters shows up in Mereen in the next bookb also claiming to be Aegon.
I think Arya and Dany are going to meet and maybe Dany will help Arya remember who she is. They will have a girl power moment and then be killed by the faceless men.
Or maybe Arya and Dany will kill their enemies with dragons and sail to the Wall where they meet up with Jon and rescue Bran and then head back to Winterfell.
Or Arya stabs Dany and hooray no more Mary Sue.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
I'd rather Sansa do away with Dany. By the time she's done turning the tables on Littlefinger she'll be a much better rule than Dany could ever be.
bengraven
Member
You took that wrong. I didn't necessarily mean that Varys is a Blackfyre, I mean that he might be a Targ of either bloodline, but that Aegon could very likely be a Blackfyre.
What I was saying was that Varys might want someone on the throne no matter which line of Targ they come from.
Besides, weren't Illyrio and him setting Dani up to marry Aegon? Maybe he wants to blend the two houses (legit and bastard) together finally.
While the theories against Aegon being legit are very strong, I still think there's a possibility that Aegon is in fact Rhaegar and Elia's kid.
The "mummer's dragon" doesn't have to mean a false Targ. Varys is a mummer before and could still be considered one. He supports Aegon on the throne. Thus, the mummer's dragon.
Basileus777
Member
They seemed to think of Dany as an afterthought. Illyrio said as much to Tyrion. Until she had three dragons, she wasn't more than a tool to get some Dothraki allies.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
Yeah, I could see the 'dragon controlled by a mummer' as being a way to resolve that while still having Aegon be legitimate. It's certainly a possible outcome.
Aegon's legitimacy seems like a pretty hard matter to prove conclusively either way. Varys and maybe Illyrio are the only people who would know the truth, and neither of them are exactly big on telling the truth.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
Also there's the whole why would Varys lie to a dying Kevan Lannister thing. It could be an action of spite, I suppose. Pretty much an even chance at this point.
People actually read all that stuff and thought about it?
Basileus777
Member
ACOK came out in 1998, people have had forever to speculate and theorize about everything ASOIAF related. These books have been picked apart and apart and apart.
How do you guys want the Red Wedding to be done? I think they really need some epic haunting music to get it done properly. Something like "Long Ways To Go Yet" from the LOTR Two Towers soundtrack. They should show it in all the graphic detail of course. I'd have Arya in the Stark camp as Freys rush down on them, a really frenzied slaughter. The key thing for me is having a scene where the camera slowly goes up a line of injured body parts and blood up to a throne with Robb's body and the direwolf head on it. That would be either the end of episode 9 or start of episode 10. It may be too much to show the wolf's head and red wedding together. I also wouldn't make the viewers question whether or not Arya was killed. That is just too much to take and I think most book readers didn't really question that she would live.
Steelyuhas
Member
Approved
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
AC/DC's Highway to Hell or no sale.
The wolf head thing didn't even happen during Catelyn's narration. It was only during the descriptions of the aftermath. I don't think they're gonna show it but rather just talk about it.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
Steelyuhas
Member
I laughed haha
Nah, I think that image is too brutal for Dan and David to pass up an opportunity to use.
Also, damn you Apana! I'm just rolling through LOTR OST right now. So good.
What? That would be the worst possible thing to do. The incredible visual of the wolf's head on Robb's body would be remembered for a long time to come. Much better than "Hey bro did you hear what they did with that wolf's head...".
Linkin Park "In The End".
The Rains of Castamere is the only option. Getting the way the sounds were described in the chapters would be an essential part of the whole thing.
Complete with drums like these when Catelyn is pleading with Walder.
Fair enough. Let´s hope he can, in the remaining 2-3 books tie up all the loose ends in the ongoing power struggle, pen a successful dragon invasion, and explain who the other´s realy are and what are their motivations.
Given that I find it increasingly unlikely that Dany will ever succeed in invading Westeros and taking the throne or, if she does, keep it for any significant amount of time this seems like the most likeliest option. Or at least what I hope is going to be the finale of the whole Arya-training-to-be-master-assasin subplot.
Alternatively the whole "blood of the dragon" thing blows up in Dany's face and she gets eaten by her out-of-control dragons. Either would be fine.
Chuckie
Member
Shouldn't this be shown in the House of the Undying? (Ofcourse without making it clear who it is).
Haven't we seen visions of her on the Trident riding Drogo?
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