Agreed. Martin has really lost control of the series, and I don't think he will ever get it back.
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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
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bodyofanamerican
Member
Oh and one last thing about GRRM's writing and the TV show's timeline...he needs to have TWOW done by 2017, but even that only gives him a year for ADOS. Ideally (lol not happening) it'd be TWOW in 2014 and ADOS in 2017.
As has been said in this thread before, I fully expect HBO to pass him and finish it if they find themselves in a position to do so.
As has been said in this thread before, I fully expect HBO to pass him and finish it if they find themselves in a position to do so.
The problem with the book timeline is that for the first 3 books, the themes and threads were inspired by the War of the Roses. The story of Dany coming to Westeros was going to replace those themes by the 4th book going on to the 7th. He fucked it up when he changed his plan by making stories to bridge the two themes, which are not following any particular theme, structure or inspiration.
velvet_nitemare
Member
Fucking hell, I finally mustered up the will to reread Dance, and i can't find my bloody copy. The paper back doesn't come out until July i think, conflicted if i should wait or not.
How do you lose something that big???
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
To be fair to him it wasn't GRRM's desire to end with so many cliffhangers. His editors made him drop lots of stuff from the end of the book.
velvet_nitemare
Member
I carried it around with me for months until i wanted to read it. I must have left it someplace, no idea where. I'm on spring break now, so the timing's good.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
You people are worrying about season 6+? For fucks sake it would be a miracle if it even went that long! George will do what he do and if by that same miracle the showrunners think they might catch up, having some breathing room to tell such a complex story is not a bad thing. But honestly, these aren't soprano numbers, enjoy what we get!
Gamer @ Heart
Member
It took me awhile to muster it up as well and it was worth it. The lows make the highs that much sweeter still and knowing fan theories adds a new dimension to it.
Basileus777
Member
He ends his chapters on cliffhangers all the time, it's one of his most notable writing techniques. Maybe it comes from his TV history, but he loves cliffhangers and it's not because of his editor.\
Zephyr is still banned right? You should be fine then.
LegendofJoe
Member
God he was annoying, I've never seen a bigger apologist.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
You're right but back in ASOS it was all fucking awesome. I don't think it's the same as how ADWD ended which was the doing of the editors. Of course that was indirectly because the book became so long.
THAT is your problem with the books? Cliffhangers are in most books, they're there in order to keep you reading. GRRM just happens to have several plots going on at once, so duh, several cliffhangers. And to say that's hoping to die before finishing off the books is in extremely poor taste. Cliffhangers tend to stop only when the series is finished.
As for Jon and Stannis, even if they ARE dead (read up on theories, that will cool some of your rage. At the very least, we know
Stannis
Basileus777
Member
It's not new, and it works well a lot of the time. But I can understand the thought that he goes to that well a bit too often.
He's still fighting the good fight at something awful, so he hasn't given up yet.
Hah good, I thought I was the only one who noticed this.
bengraven
Member
PhoenixDark
Banned
Honestly I hesitate to recommend the series to people who liked the show because I know they won't like the later books
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
It was much easier to recommend when the series was just the first 3. Back then you recommend it to someone and once they're done the usual response was, "Holy shit! That was so fucking awesome!"
After AFFC they weren't quite as enthusiastic, "It was pretty good, but the last book kind of sucked."
I don't even recommend the books anymore after how ADWD turned out unless people ask me about them. Can't be a crazy fanboy after that. Hopefully TWoW will return to the pace of ASoS.
The mummer's dragon prophecy, the theories about the fate of the other brothers of Daenerys that were floating way before ADWD came out... I don't think that Griffin was an afterthought at all, specially because Griffin is the resolution of the Varys plot. He is Varys's creation and his ultimate goal. We always wondered who Varys side was, and lo and behold, it is Griffin. IMHO, Varys is one of the few characters with a true statesman mind. His goal was, avobe all, the good governance of Westeros. And Griffin is the catalysis of that, the kind of "perfect prince" touted by Machiavello.That's why I don't feel that the Griffin plot line is an afterthought, because I think of it like an extension of the Varys storyline.
BertramCooper
Banned
I dunno.
I really think Daenerys should go back to Meereen. I still think she can get it all sorted out if she tries really hard.
Also, she should marry Daario because he's sooooooo dreamy.
I really think Daenerys should go back to Meereen. I still think she can get it all sorted out if she tries really hard.
Also, she should marry Daario because he's sooooooo dreamy.
Pfft. Feast and Dance were fine. They just weren't as fast paced as the first 3 were, for pretty obvious reasons. Things are winding down now, the war is over, but stories are still progressing in their usual way. It's not what people expect, I know, because I felt something was off the first time I read them as well. Then I reread the series and Feast read much better the second time around. Do that, and if you still have issues then, then come back and tell us.
Basileus777
Member
No, he doesn't have to reread the books before he can dislike them. Hell, my reread of AFFC lowered my opinion of it and made me realize just how bloated and structureless it is.
It's just a suggestion. It certainly made me appreciate the book more and has for many others, though not all.
Anyway, it wasn't nearly as bloated as many make it out to be. The entirety of Dany's stay in Quarth in Clash of Kings could have been cut down significantly, but I never see anyone complain about that. There isn't that much more in feast that can be cut down than there is in the other books.
RobotsAnger
Member
I think the reason it felt off is because there were too many separate storylines and few of them actually intersect. From a reading stand point (also, from someone who read 1-5 continuously) I didn't mind this too much. However, I have no idea how they will film season 5-6 (Feast and Dance) while keeping the viewers interested. By this point we'll have 10 different stories from characters across the world and I think viewers will be pissed that instead of getting any form of resolution to these arcs, we just get more characters and more separate story lines.
lolz.
GRRM kind of lost the plot along the way but the first three books are amazing and I certainly don't regret getting into the series.
velvet_nitemare
Member
Can't wait to reread how he used her in every way imaginable.
Dany had 5 chapters in ACoK and 10 in ADwD, only 1 of which was enjoyable to read.
Basileus777
Member
Individual chapter length also ballooned in size after ASOS, so the difference in word count is probably even more than double.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
I think I'd probably call it 3. The first (?) one where she was presiding over court and the dude showed up with the dead kid was good enough. The fighting pits one was awesome, and the last was interesting as it actually featured plot development.
velvet_nitemare
Member
Word. The change was staggering, even though i agree with those that say she is now more in line with what we expect from a teenage girl rather than this all conquering badass heroine.
velvet_nitemare
Member
This would have been a good place for "I ain't even mad", but i'll abstain.
To be fair, The Winds Of Winter is set up to be even more action packed then the second half of A Storm Of Swords. Seriously, let's list all the stuff that has to happen:
- Battle of Winterfell
- Battle of Meereen
- Cersei's Trial
- Jaime & Brienne going to meet Stoneheart
- Sansa being wedded (possibly)
- Aegon sieging Storm's End
- Jon Snow's fate
- What the khalasar does to Daenarys
- Davos finding Rickon
- Finding out what the Damphair has been up to (even if he is the least interesting POV for me)
- Arya going off on assassin's apprenticeship
- Whatever is going down in Oldtown
And that's just towards the front-end of the book. ADWD and AFFC may not be the most exciting books but they certainly help set up one massive set of interesting stories for the next one. Certainly, the bit in ADWD where the two books merge begins to pick up the pace again.
I will admit, I think both AFFC and ADWD needed to cut down on Brienne, Cersei and Daenarys chapters quite a lot. The whole subplot where Brienne ends up battling some of Vargo Hoat's lackeys really didn't need to exist.
- Battle of Winterfell
- Battle of Meereen
- Cersei's Trial
- Jaime & Brienne going to meet Stoneheart
- Sansa being wedded (possibly)
- Aegon sieging Storm's End
- Jon Snow's fate
- What the khalasar does to Daenarys
- Davos finding Rickon
- Finding out what the Damphair has been up to (even if he is the least interesting POV for me)
- Arya going off on assassin's apprenticeship
- Whatever is going down in Oldtown
And that's just towards the front-end of the book. ADWD and AFFC may not be the most exciting books but they certainly help set up one massive set of interesting stories for the next one. Certainly, the bit in ADWD where the two books merge begins to pick up the pace again.
I will admit, I think both AFFC and ADWD needed to cut down on Brienne, Cersei and Daenarys chapters quite a lot. The whole subplot where Brienne ends up battling some of Vargo Hoat's lackeys really didn't need to exist.
RobotsAnger
Member
I don't hate Daario, I hate how Dany reacts to Daario.
Basileus777
Member
I don't think GRRM will even get to it all in one book.
'Enjoyable' is a very subjective criticism and hardly the point. The point is that all the books are bloated, often with things some readers don't find interesting at all. In that sense, Feast and Dance aren't any different from the first 3 books.
They intersect less, but the implications of how they all connect are still there. Cersei is ruining Westeros, and Brienne feels the effects. Baelish and Sansa are preparing their counterstrike, as is Dorne. Jaime is meanwhile helping finish up the war. Arya is training as an assassin, which spells doom for many characters in the series. It's all still connected. Feast just suffers from slow pacing and lots of it being set up, but that doesn't make it a bad book, it just needs the rest of the story to justify itself.
I didn't like the first time I read her chapters, but I think I will when I reread them. Also, it's the opposite of what you said. Dany was attempting to be a mature adult, where as before she acted like a teenager. Her strategy with the other cities in Essos were to pass a city, conquer them if they were being evil, then put the oppressed in charge because she thought everything would be cool afterwards. If that's not naivety, I don't know what is. Instead, she tried to stay and try her hand at ruling peacefully, being a good queen. She SUCKS at it, but that does not make her immature, as she realizes it at the end of the book and she is disillusioned. Now I think she is going to go back to being a conquer, but she won't be living in the dream that she's somehow a hero and fixing the world because of this. THAT is adulthood.
The character arc is a good one, but it's hurt not by it's content or writing, but that where she was competant in her actions before, she now struggles to rule. It's not as fun to read about someone who makes mistakes as it is about someone who is kicking ass, but ASoIaF is not about fun. I'm not sure why people don't realize that by now. Ruling simply not her forte. Also, the names were very confusing, and that they were all new characters was hard to keep them straight in your head or think about them the same as you do of Varys and the rest of the council in Westeros that we are familiar with, which made them harder to connect with. But the pure content and arc of her section? Awesome.
It's no different than Tyrion constantly going to Shae.
Agreed. Dany needed this lesson, to learn her limits and her strengths. It wasn't always fun to read, so Martin failed in that regard, but it made sense and had to happen. I also suspect all the annoying characters with similar names were (more or less) intentional. I hate them all and can't wait until the Meerenese clusterfuck will be resolved and the invasion of Westeros begins!
The entire book (and to a lesser extent AFFC) felt like an annoying intermezzo during which stuff is set up. Hopefully, the next book will start to resolve some things. At the very least, the Battle of Fire and the Battle of Ice (Stannis lives!) will be fought!
I don't think Martin failed because he didn't make it fun. He always said that he is striving to make his stories lifelike and life isn't always fun, so why should it be here? I'd still argue that it was well written, it's just harder to connect to (due to the names) and not what people expected, which would lead to some disappointment regardless of it's quality.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
I really really hope Daario makes it through because he seems like the perfect person to help Dany wreck some shit now that she remembers she is a fucking dragon! Dragons dont sow motherfucker!
Steelyuhas
Member
Does the fact that Tyrion was convicted of killing the King and was supposed to be executed annul his marriage with Sansa?
It was like 2000 pages of a "little bump".
He's the kind of dude that gets the girls GAFfers want but never get. Hence why a lot of people hate him.
Personally I didn't hate his character, I just hated how much time GURM spent making Daeny fantasize about him. I don't even care that she wanted to fuck him, just get it over and done with and move on to something more relevant!
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Supermanisdead
Member
Daario = Gambit? God, his "hot" description just reads gross and scummy to me. A blue, parted beard? Swords with naked women carved on the hilts?
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