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[blainethemono]

One of the Stark ancestors sailed a fleet of ships west and was never heard from again.

One of the coolest little pieces of lore in the series. Imagine if that guy actually found another continent analogous to the Americas and just stayed there. An entirely new line of Starks could be prospering over there. They could even come back with an army

 

[tokkun]

One of the coolest little pieces of lore in the series. Imagine if that guy actually found another continent analogous to the Americas and just stayed there. An entirely new line of Starks could be prospering over there. They could even come back with an army

That exact plotline happens in another popular fantasy series with 700+ page books.

 

[q_q]

That exact plotline happens in another popular fantasy series with 700+ page books.

Which series is that?

 

[Veelk]

Which series is that?

The one that comes after ASOIAF. It's scheduled for release in 2058.

Edit: I only reread the post you quoted and realized that I misread it and my reply makes no sense. I'm an idiot.

 

[tokkun]

Which series is that?

Spoiler

The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

 

[Jack Scofield]

One of the coolest little pieces of lore in the series. Imagine if that guy actually found another continent analogous to the Americas and just stayed there. An entirely new line of Starks could be prospering over there. They could even come back with an army

Preferably an army technologically advanced compared to the rest of the world, at least to the equivalent to the 19th century. The known world of ASOIAF (and for most fantasy) needs to get off their asses and discover gunpowder already. Their culture and warfare has been stagnant for thousands of years.

It'd be awesome if that's how the last book ended. "And then the long-lost Starks flew back from the west with jets and took over Westeros with their machine guns and tanks. The end."

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

Preferably an army technologically advanced compared to the rest of the world, at least to the equivalent to the 19th century. The known world of ASOIAF (and for most fantasy) needs to get off their asses and discover gunpowder already. Their culture and warfare has been stagnant for thousands of years.

It'd be awesome if that's how the last book ended. "And then the long-lost Starks flew back from the west with jets and took over Westeros with their machine guns and tanks. The end."

I'm of the opinion that the culture hasn't been stagnant for thousands of years, merely hundreds. It's just that all their history books are trashy propaganda designed to legitimise the ruling class by tracing their unbroken lines of ancestry back through ridiculous periods of time. Every time a new generation comes to power, they add a few ancestors to the trunk of their family tree. Thing is, it's been happening for so long that only a very few ancestors they have in their history actually existed.

 

[Basileus777]

I'm of the opinion that the culture hasn't been stagnant for thousands of years, merely hundreds. It's just that all their history books are trashy propaganda designed to legitimise the ruling class by tracing their unbroken lines of ancestry back through ridiculous periods of time. Every time a new generation comes to power, they add a few ancestors to the trunk of their family tree. Thing is, it's been happening for so long that only a very few ancestors they have in their history actually existed.

Just think of it as the King Arthur leading medieval Knights in platemail effect, current generations project their current social values and technology back on historical figures and myths/legends.

Though it's probably best not to analyze it too much. Much of GRRM's world building is there for a sense of scale and drama, not realism. He wants things to be bigger and more dramatic than the real world so he makes things unrealistic in terms of time and size. He doesn't want cities or a bunch of cousin branches of Great Houses so he handwaves them away. The whole season system makes little sense and the world would have dramatically different lifeforms and human civilization in such a scenario, but he keeps things basically the same as our world except when it's convenient for him. GRRM really cares about dynastic politics and history, and it's there his world building shines.

 

[Walshicus]

Well, I was disappointed because I thought we are getting the written stories of a history of Westeros on top of the maps, but instead all I got is a bunch of maps

Yeah, what's up with that? What happened to the stuff he was writing for them?

 

[RatskyWatsky]

Yeah, what's up with that? What happened to the stuff he was writing for them?

You're confusing The Lands of Ice and Fire map set with the extensive encyclopedia The World of Ice and Fire, which GRRM is still working on.

 

[Walshicus]

You're confusing The Lands of Ice and Fire map set with the extensive encyclopedia The World of Ice and Fire, which GRRM is still working on.

Aww nuts. Oh well, they're good maps.

 

[Veelk]

I made the mistake when I typed in "World of Ice and Fire" on amazon and it immediately brought up Lands of Ice and fire. Since World and Land can both be a reference to the history of Westeros, I just thought nothing of it and assumed I had been mistaken with the name of the book.

They're good maps and I don't regret getting them, but MAN I was hoping for some good fake history

 

[Aiii]

Still annoyed GRRM isn't finishing the series first and doing the encyclopedia stuff later. It's his choice and all, but damn the time it takes between one book and the next just utterly kills me.

 

[Randdalf]

Still annoyed GRRM isn't finishing the series first and doing the encyclopedia stuff later. It's his choice and all, but damn the time it takes between one book and the next just utterly kills me.

He's working on both at the same time... he's also not the one doing the bulk of the work for the encyclopedia, just providing the information and writing some fake history for it.

 

[blainethemono]

As long as he actually manages to get The She-Wolves of Winterfell out in 2013 i'll be happy. He really seems to be swamped with a ton of different stuff though. All that on top of his responsibilities regarding the show, conventions, interviews etc.

 

[Aiii]

He's working on both at the same time... he's also not the one doing the bulk of the work for the encyclopedia, just providing the information and writing some fake history for it.

Yeah, he's doing both, writing 100 pages of encyclopedia backstory and saying not to expect the next book until 2014.

 

[Veelk]

I'd just like to point out that working on a single thing nonstop can give you some serious tunnel vision that ultimately harms the final product. Stopping to work on other things for a short while and then coming back to it later gives you perspective.

It's annoying that it takes longer, but if you don't let grrm work at it his way, all that's gonna happen is that you get a product that probably isn't as good in the end.

 

[blainethemono]

I'd just like to point out that working on a single thing nonstop can give you some serious tunnel vision that ultimately harms the final product. Stopping to work on other things for a short while and then coming back to it later gives you perspective.

It's annoying that it takes longer, but if you don't let grrm work at it his way, all that's gonna happen is that you get a product that probably isn't as good in the end.

Stephen King rushing the last 3 books of The Dark Tower is proof of this. He let the thought of his own mortality get to him and the series ended up suffering as a result. Not that books 5 and 7 were bad, but they were definitely very disappointing compared to the first four books and some of the choices he made almost ruined the series for me...I always imagine how much better those books could have been if he had just waited and wrote them at his own pace rather than just rushing towards the end to get it done. I respect that about GRRM. He's going to just take his time with it and make sure the books are as good as they can possibly be

 

[Massa]

He can take all the time he wants, but it will be pretty funny if HBO gets to spoil his ending for the rest of the world.

And by funny, I mean

 

[ahoyhoy]

I'm of the opinion that the culture hasn't been stagnant for thousands of years, merely hundreds. It's just that all their history books are trashy propaganda designed to legitimise the ruling class by tracing their unbroken lines of ancestry back through ridiculous periods of time. Every time a new generation comes to power, they add a few ancestors to the trunk of their family tree. Thing is, it's been happening for so long that only a very few ancestors they have in their history actually existed.

I can agree with this concept, although during the time of the First Men and into the Age of Heroes it was clear that bronze weapons and tools represented the bulk of their industry, sort of akin to the the days of ancient Greece and Rome.

Even still, I thought the nature of Westeros, as well as the overall unique seasonal properties in which they lived would be one of the causes of this slow progress. The isolated yet continious contient of Westeros made warfare easier and more inevitable as kingdoms rose and spread into other territories, generatings massive upticks in weapon production but not research. After all, with all this constant warfare, who had the time to research new technologies? Indeed, the precense of low-magic and natural Weapons of Mass Destruction like dragons also helped downplay the need to adopt new advancements in warfare.

This, coupled with the constant threat of a long and brutal winter punishing those kingdoms that dedicated resources to new technology rather than adequately tilled the soil and put aside seasonal stores kept the development of things like steel at bay.

 

[TestOfTide]

So I finished ADWD. rereading random parts of ASOS. I have one question:

WHy does everyone insist that Sandor Clegane is alive. He literally was at the point where he was wishing for mercy in the form of death and for a while had a horse named stranger. I thought the whole point of how the faceless men work is that kill people who are at the point where they want to die or want someone dead and are willing to give up everything to make that happen.

 

[hemtae]

There's a gravedigger that Brienne saw that would match his description.

 

[CloudWolf]

WHy does everyone insist that Sandor Clegane is alive. He literally was at the point where he was wishing for mercy in the form of death and for a while had a horse named stranger. I thought the whole point of how the faceless men work is that kill people who are at the point where they want to die or want someone dead and are willing to give up everything to make that happen.

Because the only characters that know that Sandor is "dead" (although he is probably the grave digger of the Quiet Isle) are Brienne, The Brotherhood Without Banners and that one septon. The rest of the world still thinks that Rorge, who stole Sandor's helmet, is Sandor. And I don't know why you brought up the Faceless Men, because they only intervene when they are hired to kill someone, not whenever someone wants to die.

 

[Veelk]

And I don't know why you brought up the Faceless Men, because they only intervene when they are hired to kill someone, not whenever someone wants to die.

No, in their legends, the first faceless helped people who wanted to die pass on and they still do that in the temple. It'd fit the faceless men's MO. But I don't know why he bothers bringing it up because there were no faceless around and arya wasn't even considering being one at that point.

 

[elrechazado]

Because the only characters that know that Sandor is "dead" (although he is probably the grave digger of the Quiet Isle) are Brienne, The Brotherhood Without Banners and that one septon. The rest of the world still thinks that Rorge, who stole Sandor's helmet, is Sandor. And I don't know why you brought up the Faceless Men, because they only intervene when they are hired to kill someone, not whenever someone wants to die.

You realize rorge is dead, and his death was witnessed by tons of people right?

 

[CloudWolf]

You realize rorge is dead, and his death was witnessed by tons of people right?

Those tons of people were all part of (or at least, affiliated with) The Brotherhood Without Banners. Of course, Pod, Hyle Hunt and the rest of Rorge's gang were also there, but aside from perhaps Pod those are all dead. My point still stands.

Maybe Septon Meribald also knows that Sandor is dead, but it was not entirely clear where he was at the time of Rorge's death (he could just have been hiding inside the inn and therefore missed the duel between Brienne and Rorge).

 

[elrechazado]

Those tons of people were all part of (or at least, affiliated with) The Brotherhood Without Banners. Of course, Pod, Hyle Hunt and the rest of Rorge's gang were also there, but aside from perhaps Pod those are all dead. My point still stands.

Maybe Septon Meribald also knows that Sandor is dead, but it was not entirely clear where he was at the time of Rorge's death (he could just have been hiding inside the inn and therefore missed the duel between Brienne and Rorge).

I don't think it does, since the brotherhood kills tons of people and "advertises" them regularly. There's a battle for the hearts and minds along the trident, and killing the mad dog of the saltpans is obviously a win. Remember, the populace all knows Lem by his cloak and who he rides with, and he took the helm and has been riding all over in it. Everyone knows the hound is dead.

 

[Apath]

My friend called me up crying today. She couldn't believe that I never warned her that Jon dies.

 

[LuchaShaq]

Really? Letdown if true

Are-yuh.


Wait what exlpain

Basically a bunch of garbage looking maps folded 20 times into little cardboard squares.

It's not a map book/almanac it's a shitty box with mediocre maps.

You could download some fanmade high res maps offline and print them somewhere on nice thick paper for a better map book.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

My friend called me up crying today. She couldn't believe that I never warned her that Jon dies.

Muahahahaha!

Basically a bunch of garbage looking maps folded 20 times into little cardboard squares.

It's not a map book/almanac it's a shitty box with mediocre maps.

You could download some fanmade high res maps offline and print them somewhere on nice thick paper for a better map book.

Hrm. So is the content of the maps good? It's disappointing to hear that the quality of the paper and the manner of storage/shipping is shitty. :/

 

[Admiral Bone to Pick]

My friend called me up crying today. She couldn't believe that I never warned her that Jon dies.

But...he doesn't necessarily? Isn't his fate uncertain?

 

[Jack Scofield]

But...he doesn't necessarily? Isn't his fate uncertain?

I guess he could technically be alive, since he's such an important chacracter. If so, then the Night's Watch is full of incompetent assholes if they couldn't even manage to finish off a dying man with multiple stab wounds.

 

[Apath]

But...he doesn't necessarily? Isn't his fate uncertain?

It's only uncertain to the informed reader. I told her to re-read the prologue when she finishes the book.

 

[blainethemono]

So I finished ADWD. rereading random parts of ASOS. I have one question:

WHy does everyone insist that Sandor Clegane is alive. He literally was at the point where he was wishing for mercy in the form of death and for a while had a horse named stranger. I thought the whole point of how the faceless men work is that kill people who are at the point where they want to die or want someone dead and are willing to give up everything to make that happen.

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2010/09/16_the_golem_and_the_/index.html

The most important bit of evidence to me is when Meribald says that he himself died at the Trident. When he says Sandor is dead it can be taken literally or in this other way, meaning he started a new life

 

[qindarka]

It's only uncertain to the informed reader. I told her to re-read the prologue when she finishes the book.

What does the prologue have to do with it? Don't have the book at hand now.

 

[PhoenixDark]

My friend called me up crying today. She couldn't believe that I never warned her that Jon dies.

Did you tell her he's probably not dead?

 

[q_q]

What does the prologue have to do with it? Don't have the book at hand now.

It shows that wargs can survive in animals even if their body is killed. So the prevailing theory is Jon will live in Ghost until Melisandre heals his body the same way Victarions arm was healed.

 

[tokkun]

It's only uncertain to the informed reader. I told her to re-read the prologue when she finishes the book.

Even without the prologue, I would have been certain he's not really dead. GRRM has just done so many fake deaths at this point that the default is to assume that a death is fake unless given overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I think Tyrion has had a fake death in every book he's appeared in so far.

 

[Admiral Bone to Pick]

Considering the R+L=J theory and how central Jon Snow is to the plot, it would just be poor writing at this point to kill him off. It basically sets up his story for one of two situations:

1. He is revived in zombie form, further cheapening the significance of character deaths in the series.

2. He actually is dead, which means that his entire character arc of becoming Lord Commander is pointless and the Watch loses its most important character by far. With Sam in Oldtown, there would be no major character to give a POV for the Night's Watch and that's a pretty bad idea with the Others likely having a much larger role in the next two books.

 

[The Albatross]

I guess he could technically be alive, since he's such an important chacracter. If so, then the Night's Watch is full of incompetent assholes if they couldn't even manage to finish off a dying man with multiple stab wounds.

I'd bet my bottom dollar that he's alive, or at least, that he's not "ned dead." Sadly in these books, you can say that a character is "Dead" and they're still "Alive," so, my meaning is "ned dead."

Top theories [of mine, and others]:
1) Jon is stabbed something serious but ol' Melisandre and her black magic raise him up, Azor Ahai and all that stuff.
2) Jon was stabbed someething wicked but enough not to kill him *on purpose* by his friends up at the watch, knowing that it was the only thing that could keep him at the Wall; he'd flee south otherwise, so they mame him as best they can to keep him there.

Frankly, I could just be naive, but it would be just a horrific waste of time if Jon were truly killed off at this point. Just... ridiculous and it would convince me that GRRM got mad that readers figured out the story before he could tell it, so he twisted it into some bull shit to throw people off.

But, I don't for a moment believe JOn is actually dead. Either Jon Zombie (which I would be disappointed by, sick of zombies in this book; kind of wnt dead people to stay dead), or not zombie not dead.

 

[Apath]

Did you tell her he's probably not dead?

No, that would ruin the fun of it. She still has to finish the book.

 

[fallout]

2. He actually is dead, which means that his entire character arc of becoming Lord Commander is pointless and the Watch loses its most important character by far. With Sam in Oldtown, there would be no major character to give a POV for the Night's Watch and that's a pretty bad idea with the Others likely having a much larger role in the next two books.

I don't think it would be pointless. It shows how they set him up to be Lord Commander and he failed. There's lots of discussion to be had, there.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

I don't think it would be pointless. It shows how they set him up to be Lord Commander and he failed. There's lots of discussion to be had, there.

I don't know, he's already done that with Robb as King in the North.

 

[ultron87]

He has reached the point in his story where he can't just kill off characters for shock value anymore (not that he's ever really done that). Killing Jon for reals at this point would be only a slightly less terrible writing decision than killing off Dany before she has any effect on Westeros.

 

[fallout]

I kind of thought that the whole point of ASoIaF was that everything sucks and will continue to suck.

... There are probably more eloquent ways of putting that.

 

[Mackenzie 92]

My friend called me up crying today. She couldn't believe that I never warned her that Jon dies.

I hope he stays dead. Dude was as annoying and dumb as Ned.

Has the big man made any progress reports on Winds lately?

 

[Loofy]

Finally finished ADWD. Man I love how george is like one giant troll, making us think something is good/bad then flipping it around. I bet by the next book we'll all be cheering for Cersei to triumph:/
Im wondering who will end up being danys 2 other dragon riders. Thought quentyn had a chance.. lol. Probably Tyrion though that would look weird. Euron has the horn so he'll probably get one..

 

[hemtae]

Has the big man made any progress reports on Winds lately?

Well judging from what happened to the Jets a few days ago, he probably just murdered the shit out of everybody and the next book will be Brienne wandering about the Riverlands and ten chapters of Davos sailing to Skagos only to find Rickon dead.

 

[Jack Scofield]

Finally finished ADWD. Man I love how george is like one giant troll, making us think something is good/bad then flipping it around. I bet by the next book we'll all be cheering for Cersei to triumph:/
Im wondering who will end up being danys 2 other dragon riders. Thought quentyn had a chance.. lol. Probably Tyrion though that would look weird. Euron has the horn so he'll probably get one..

Logically, I would have guessed Aegon and Jon if we're basing it on dragon's blood. GRRM loves throwing out red herrings though so I'm betting Aegon dies fairly quickly and readers will be apathetic about his death (kind of like Quentyn). Anything can go on these books, though, so maybe GRRM swill switch things up and have Penny and Nymeria fly the other two dragons.

 

[Rob Schnoddor]

Euron has the horn so he'll probably get one..

I'm really interested in this. He has the horn, but does he have someone stupid enough to use it for him? I mean nearly every Ironborn has either seen what happens when you use it, or at least got told the story, can't see that anyone of them is eager to do this for his captain. ^^

Maybe he gets a slave or a prisoner to do that.