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[Trasher]

What was the initial plan for Theon and Jeyne and the spearwives once they escaped Winterfell? Was it to go to the Wall or to Stannis? Either way, if Mance had written the letter, what's the point of him wanting to get them back after he just helped organize their escape? I guess I'm just struggling to see any reason why he would have sent that letter to Jon.

Edit: Unless Mance's goal is to lure Jon away from the wall so he can maybe sneak back up there and reunite his wildlings underneath himself again.

Are there any other wildlings that would have had all of that information? Someone who potentially wants to see Jon overthrown?

I was also reading that a lot of people believe Melisandre wrote the letter.

This is all too fucking confusing. Damn you George!

 

[Geido]

Wow... my mind is blown. Mance writing that letter never crossed my mind.

It does bring up a lot of interesting points. My first thought is that he's being controlled by Melissandre though, not in the magical sense, but doing her bidding. As if she wanted Jon to get stabbed to 'death'. I think she has shown to be very adept at playing the game, not only through magic. It would certainly play into the Jon getting revived by Melissandre theory. He will be utterly under her control after that (again, not in the magical sense).

 

[Emerson]

You know what is corious in that letter? He wrote black crows. Only the wildlings think of the Night's Watch as black crows

I could be wrong (someone with better memory or more reads of the series should correct me) but I don't really think this is true.

Regardless, I don't see how Mance could have written that letter. The implications of it don't really make a ton of sense.

 

[freddy]

The last part of the letter:

I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.

 

[bengraven]

Jesus Christ, these books are so fucking dense. Say what you will about his speed, the man rarely wastes a sentence (except when talking about food or cock).

It's like playing a game you can never 100% without reading the internet.

 

[Emerson]

The last part of the letter:

I know that's what the letter said. I meant I'm not sure that only Wildlings use the term crow.

 

[freddy]

I know that's what the letter said. I meant I'm not sure that only Wildlings use the term crow.

Yea, I realised that after a bit. Agreed on the term being more widely used though. I tend to think of it as more of a nickname used in the north than one exclusively used by the Wildlings. I could see it being used a somewhat derisive description by Northmen in general just as easily.

 

[Emerson]

Yea, I realised that after a bit. Agreed on the term being more widely used though. I tend to think of it as more of a nickname used in the north than one exclusively used by the Wildlings. I could see it being used a derisive description by Northmen on general just as easily.

Yeah, I tried to search for some quotes or other evidence as to how widely the term is used but found nothing. Hopefully Basileus or somebody else who remembers a lot of that stuff can shed some light.

 

[Moff]

ramsays letter was one of the few moments in ADWD that got me as excited as ASOIAF should.
if its not really from him, although I appreciate the twist, it would be kinda lame, honestly.

 

[Aiii]

To be honest, I don't believe anyone other than wildlings have ever used the term crow.

 

[freddy]

This is all I could find on the origin.

Men of the Night's Watch are garbed all in black, a tradition that earned them the nickname "crows," particularly among the wildlings. While some use this name derogatorily, many in the Night's Watch have adopted the term for their own use. They are also called "the black brothers," and in song they've been called the "black knights of the Wall."

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Night%E2%80%99s_Watch

 

[cubicle47b]

Quentyn was supposed to be the shocking death of ADwD, but unlike Ned in AGoT or Robb and Cat, Martin utterly failed convincing most people of his importance to begin with.

Quentyn's death is supposed to be shocking? Why do you think that? It's not surprising at all. It just has potentially huge political ramifications in the next book.

Now Jon's death, on the other hand, was supposed to be shocking. No one believes he actually died or is going to stay dead, of course.

 

[Aiii]

Quentyn's death is supposed to be shocking? Why do you think that? It's not surprising at all. It just has potentially huge political ramifications in the next book.

Now Jon's death, on the other hand, was supposed to be shocking. No one believes he actually died or is going to stay dead, of course.

Well, we could all just be deluding ourselves because we don't want him to be.

 

[Basileus777]

Well, we could all just be deluding ourselves because we don't want him to be.

Well, that would just be poor writing if he was really dead.

 

[Veelk]

It's poor writing if he's alive because it's predictable, it's poor writing if he's dead because it's a waste.

GRRM can't win.

 

[Diablos54]

It's poor writing if he's alive because it's predictable, it's poor writing if he's dead because it's a waste.

GRRM can't win.

But it's great writing if he becomes Ghost!

 

[Basileus777]

It's poor writing if he's alive because it's predictable, it's poor writing if he's dead because it's a waste.

GRRM can't win.

Because writing is done in binary, every character either lives or dies, there's nothing else involved.

 

[Aiii]

Because writing is done in binary, every character either lives or dies, there's nothing else involved.

Have we been reading the same books?

 

[Basileus777]

Have we been reading the same books?

I'm not sure how this is a response to my post.

 

[Aiii]

I'm not sure how this is a response to my post.

Because in these books plenty of people are both alive and dead.

 

[Basileus777]

Because in these books plenty of people are both alive and death.

Did you really read that as a serious statement? It's not.

 

[badcrumble]

To be honest, it is totally plausible for GRRM to produce poor writing. Nothing unfair about that.

 

[Jayof9s]

Well, we could all just be deluding ourselves because we don't want him to be.

That is always a possibility, though most major character deaths have had some purpose in advancing the plot to a certain place. Maybe Jon is dead and it will advance the plot some where I'm not expecting but more than likely I think his story isn't done yet so he'll either somehow survive the attack or be brought back to life.

His death just didn't make sense to me, from the point of view of the story and so it seemed like a forgone conclusion that he wasn't truly dead, and that was before I'd picked up on all the major theories about him (I don't tend to read very deep into things, I had figured Lyanna had died giving birth but I never really followed through to the implications of a Targ child or that it would have been Jon, though that does all seem almost obvious in retrospect).

And as a lot of people have said on this last page; as readers we've had so many near/fake deaths in the recent books that we now don't expect any death to be permanent. It has been too long since a major character died and at this point I think just about every single one of them has been nearly killed or portrayed as having been killed or has actually been killed and returned from the dead.

At this point it is going to be hard for the readers to believe that anyone that dies (especially if they're important to the story) is actually dead / will stay dead. Which really takes the impact of it away if/when it does happen.

 

[Dresden]

It's clearly setting up the undead boogaloo death match with Stoneheart.

 

[Basileus777]

I just want Jon Connington to turn into a stone monster. He'd put those zombies and ice demons to shame.

 

[Dresden]

Connington is the stone dragon that'll awake when 'royal' blood is spilled. RIP Aegon, all hail Rockman.

 

[daripad]

In my opinion Connington was as interesting as a rock.

 

[Veelk]

Because writing is done in binary, every character either lives or dies, there's nothing else involved.

Well....yes? Either someone is alive or they are not. Unless you count things like Cat being undead, those are pretty much the only 2 states of living that a person can take.

 

[diaspora]

I just finished GoT through to aDwD and it's a bit astonishing to see how useless Daenerys is. I feel like I could have just skipped her chapters.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

In my opinion Connington was as interesting as a rock.

That's how I feel about most of the Ironborn. Everything they are the Dothraki did better.

 

[daripad]

That's how I feel about most of the Ironborn. Everything they are the Dothraki did better.

And Areo Hotah, that guy is just a wall

 

[Dysun]

Areo is just a POV at Doran without Doran being the POV, same for Aegon/Connington. I barely acknowledge them as real characters

 

[aronnov reborn]

I just finished GoT through to aDwD and it's a bit astonishing to see how useless Daenerys is. I feel like I could have just skipped her chapters.

without a doubt the most un-interesting character for me personally. It was a chore for me to read through her stuff.

 

[Basileus777]

Areo is just a POV at Doran without Doran being the POV, same for Aegon/Connington. I barely acknowledge them as real characters

Davos pretty much started out the same way. Being a lens to view other figures doesn't prevent good characterization as well. There's still some hope for Connington. Though Areo is pretty much at the level of a prologue POV. And IIRC that's actually how he got started before GRRM broke up that massive prologue to AFFC into separate POVs. Or was that just the Ironborn POVs? It's been so long.

 

[Wh0 N0se]

OK, I'm talking to my dad, who's only read the first book and watches the TV show. We're debating the magic side of it and yadayadayada but he makes the point about the 'shadow baby' essentially being a Deus Ex Machina.

When I think about it, Melisandre only does this once in the books right? (I do get a vague sense it may have happened again but I'm pretty sure it didn't) So, why does GRRM introduce this one time thing when he could have written it another way as to kill Renly.

Am I missing something here? It seems strange that he introduces this piece of magic that just kills a character and we haven't seen anything about it since.

 

[Basileus777]

OK, I'm talking to my dad, who's only read the first book and watches the TV show. We're debating the magic side of it and yadayadayada but he makes the point about the 'shadow baby' essentially being a Deus Ex Machina.

When I think about it, Melisandre only does this once in the books right? (I do get a vague sense it may have happened again but I'm pretty sure it didn't) So, why does GRRM introduce this one time thing when he could have written it another way as to kill Renly.

Am I missing something here? It seems strange that he introduces this piece of magic that just kills a character and we haven't seen anything about it since.

She does it twice. Once against Renly, and once when Davos sneaks her into Storm's End to kill the castellan.

 

[Angry Grimace]

OK, I'm talking to my dad, who's only read the first book and watches the TV show. We're debating the magic side of it and yadayadayada but he makes the point about the 'shadow baby' essentially being a Deus Ex Machina.

When I think about it, Melisandre only does this once in the books right? (I do get a vague sense it may have happened again but I'm pretty sure it didn't) So, why does GRRM introduce this one time thing when he could have written it another way as to kill Renly.

Am I missing something here? It seems strange that he introduces this piece of magic that just kills a character and we haven't seen anything about it since.

In the books she does it twice.

 

[Wh0 N0se]

She does it twice. Once against Renly, and once when Davos sneaks her into Storm's End to kill the castellan.

OK, so my question is, why can't they just take her near Kings Landing and do this?
(I'm probably being really blind here but still...)

 

[Basileus777]

OK, so my question is, why can't they just take her near Kings Landing and do this?
(I'm probably being really blind here but still...)

There is some implication that Stannis is burnt out and can't father anymore shadow babies. But really? Not much reason at all. Sneak her into KL and have her kill Joffrey. But that wouldn't suit the plot. It's an eagles and Mordor situation.

 

[John Harker]

To be honest, it is totally plausible for GRRM to produce poor writing. Nothing unfair about that.

Yea, it's called Feast for Crows.


zing.

 

[aronnov reborn]

my question is about the assassin that mormont saved dany from in book 1 /season 1? if Vary's is pro Targean how did he allow that assassin to basically have a free shot at Dany? Wouldn't he have put in the order for robert to have it done?

He did nothing to save her, wasn't it mormont's love?

 

[Wh0 N0se]

Yea, it's called Feast for Crows.


zing.

I like AFFC...

There is some implication that Stannis is burnt out and can't father anymore shadow babies. But really? Not much reason at all. Sneak her into KL and have her kill Joffrey. But that wouldn't suit the plot. It's an eagles and Mordor situation.

It's a shame really, especially when he could have just written into the plot a situation where they had a man spying in Renly's camp. Is it possible that it was written that way to show how powerful Melisandre is or to make it seem that she's powerful as with most cases involving her.

EDIT:

my question is about the assassin that mormont saved dany from in book 1 /season 1? if Vary's is pro Targean how did he allow that assassin to basically have a free shot at Dany? Wouldn't he have put in the order for robert to have it done?

He did nothing to save her, wasn't it mormont's love?

Some people think that Varys and Illyrio are putting all their eggs in the Aegon basket and weren't truly bothered about Dany, she didn't have the dragons at that point and they probably didn't see her and Viserys as likely candidates to make it to Westeros and take the Iron Throne.

 

[John Dunbar]

There is some implication that Stannis is burnt out and can't father anymore shadow babies. But really? Not much reason at all. Sneak her into KL and have her kill Joffrey. But that wouldn't suit the plot. It's an eagles and Mordor situation.

There have also been scenes where Mel has been trying to get it on with both Davos and Jon, seeming to imply she doesn't need Stannis specifically to create shadow babies (or perhaps some other kind of magic would have been the result of those pairings, I'm not up to snuff on shadow baby genetics). But since it's pretty clear she can make sweet magic happen with multiple people (I see no reason to believe that those three just happen to be somehow special in this regard), she could just use one of the Queen's men, so her not using more of them doesn't really make sense outside the "that's not how the story goes" reasoning.

 

[Wh0 N0se]

There have also been scenes where Mel has been trying to get it on with both Davos and Jon, seeming to imply she doesn't need Stannis specifically to create shadow babies (or perhaps some other kind of magic would have been the result of those pairings, I'm not up to snuff on shadow baby genetics). But since it's pretty clear she can make sweet magic happen with multiple people (I see no reason to believe that those three just happen to be somehow special in this regard), she could just use one of the Queen's men, so her not using more of them doesn't really make sense outside the "that's not how the story goes" reasoning.

Kings blood maybe? We know it's supposed to be important, perhaps she was just trying to seduce Jon and Davos to win them to her cause.

 

[John Dunbar]

Kings blood maybe? We know it's supposed to be important, perhaps she was just trying to seduce Jon and Davos to win them to her cause.

Been a while since I read the books, but I seem to remember Mel heavily implying there would be some magical consequences were they to take a roll in the hay. Of course I can't say for sure.

 

[cubicle47b]

That is always a possibility, though most major character deaths have had some purpose in advancing the plot to a certain place. Maybe Jon is dead and it will advance the plot some where I'm not expecting but more than likely I think his story isn't done yet so he'll either somehow survive the attack or be brought back to life.

His death just didn't make sense to me, from the point of view of the story and so it seemed like a forgone conclusion that he wasn't truly dead, and that was before I'd picked up on all the major theories about him (I don't tend to read very deep into things, I had figured Lyanna had died giving birth but I never really followed through to the implications of a Targ child or that it would have been Jon, though that does all seem almost obvious in retrospect).

And as a lot of people have said on this last page; as readers we've had so many near/fake deaths in the recent books that we now don't expect any death to be permanent. It has been too long since a major character died and at this point I think just about every single one of them has been nearly killed or portrayed as having been killed or has actually been killed and returned from the dead.

At this point it is going to be hard for the readers to believe that anyone that dies (especially if they're important to the story) is actually dead / will stay dead. Which really takes the impact of it away if/when it does happen.

I don't think Jon will stay dead (if he actually died) but I think the attack on him is a pretty important part of the story and his arc. There are obviously going to be major repercussions to the attack and I see it driving the Wildlings and the Night's Watch apart and think that split will be a major factor in why the wall falls at the end of book 6 (my prediction).

I don't think GRRM has brought too many people back to life (it was Beric who traded off with what's left of Catelyn and then Gregor, kind of) but he does use possible character deaths as chapter cliffhangers too often. edit: I guess there are a couple examples of people we know (not assume) to be dead still being alive like Aegon (he's a fake, though) and Mance.

 

[Trasher]

Yeah, I tried to search for some quotes or other evidence as to how widely the term is used but found nothing. Hopefully Basileus or somebody else who remembers a lot of that stuff can shed some light.

For what it's worth, this is what ASOIAF wiki has when you search "crow":

Crow is the term used by the wildlings to refer to people who live south of the wall.

 

[Ikael]

Yea, it's called Feast for Crows.


zing.

Is called "shit editing", rather than shit writting. Same thing with ADWD.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

I might get crap for this, but GRRM didn't scrap/rework enough material for ADwD, nor did he forshadow enough stuff he was clearly planning as far back as ACoK (just finished the House of the Undying chapter in a reread) like Aegon, who, to the average reader, just came out of nowhere.

He left Quentin in the story, but for what? He wasn't interesting at all, just an entitled prince with an inferiority complex who achieved literally nothing until his untimely death by stupid. If he was supposed to be ADwD's Ned, why didn't GRRM give him a plan that the average reader thought might actually work instead of the vague "IMMA MARRY A PRINCESS / NOOOO THEY BE TAKIN MAH PRINCESS / IMMA TAKE A DRAGON / NOO THEY BE TAKIN MAH DRAGON" path he eventually took.

Seriously, Dany barely even registered that he was a person. If she didn't find him interesting, why should we? Find some other way of freeing the dragons. Maybe they escape when Hizdahr Zo Loraq's sons of the harpy come to kill them ahead of his assassination attempt.

 

[Drkirby]

I think Quentin was just to give us anther set of eyes in Slaver's Bay, since people used to complain that we only had Dany for all of Essos. Plus, him showing up and just dying out of the blue would likely have been even worse. He is pretty underwhelming, but maybe that was the point.