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[Moff]

Wouldn't legitimacy through conquest make everybody a valid claimant ?

yes, that is correct. conquest is one of a few differenct acceptable legitimacies, I think this was mentioned in AGOT.
and yes, if you lead a host powerful enough to overthrow the king, you are a valid claimant. the targaryens lost their legitimacy when they lost at the trident and jaime killed aerys.
but of course, there will alway be several claimants, which is why even after conquest sons, daughters and bastards are killed.

in the end the question is who people will follow, as varys put it in his famous riddle to tyrion.

 

[Aiii]

Robert dethroned the previous royal family and had the entire realm bend the knee to him. Thus making the Baratheons the rightful heirs to the throne.

Thus I'd say Stannis has more claim to the throne than the Targaryens do at this point. After all, that's exactly how the Targaryens got to be the royal family in the first place.

Throne belongs to anyone that can get all lords to pledge fealty to them really, and it's right of succession for as long as nobody succesfully does this over the current royal house.

 

[phaze]

The second you sit upon the throne and everyone believes you to be King something magical and your blood becomes kingly.

But seriously that's how it seems to work in the books. Robert's Bastard apparently had some King blood in him. Same with Mance and his child. Unless Melisandre is completely full of shit.

Yes but that makes him the de facto king and not the legitimate king.

Legitimacy is just a matter of perception. No one has some divine right to rule. Even in our medieval history, dynasties were cast out for "less legitimate" alternatives.

Just because they were cast out didn't make them illegitimate just unlucky. : ) Edward III and Richard III were not the rightful kings of respectively France and England though that didn't stop them calling themselves that. They were still however not the legitimate kings.
The overwhelming perception in Westeros is the hereditary nature of your position in society. That's how the titles and possesions are passed in the noble (others as well I suppose) families and by that hereditary nature the iron throne is Dany's.

yes, that is correct. conquest is one of a few differenct acceptable legitimacies, I think this was mentioned in AGOT.
and yes, if you lead a host powerful enough to overthrow the king, you are a valid claimant. the targaryens lost their legitimacy when they lost at the trident and jaime killed aerys.
but of course, there will alway be several claimants, which is why even after conquest sons, daughters and bastards are killed.

in the end the question is who people will follow, as varys put it in his famous riddle to tyrion.

So you at least agree with me that Stannis is not a rightful claimant to the throne ? : P At least no more than anyone else in Westeros.

Robert dethroned the previous royal family and had the entire realm bend the knee to him. Thus making the Baratheons the rightful heirs to the throne.

Thus I'd say Stannis has more claim to the throne than the Targaryens do at this point. After all, that's exactly how the Targaryens got to be the royal family in the first place.

Throne belongs to anyone that can get all lords to pledge fealty to them really, and it's right of succession for as long as nobody successfully does this over the current royal house.

It seems we differ in our definition of "legitimate" There was a clear and commonly accepted line of succession that was broken by Robert's rebellion. The events of ASOIAF show that many nobles bend the knee only to avoid the inevitable defeat at Robert's forces hand. If Dany came back and defeated everyone would that make her the legitimate her again ?

Wouldn't that line of reasoning also mean that Joffrey was and now Tommen is, the rightful heir ?

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Wouldn't that line of reasoning also mean that Joffrey was and now Tommen is, the rightful heir ?

Indeed. "Some wars are won with words".

 

[Moff]

So you at least agree with me that Stannis is not a rightful claimant to the throne ? : P At least no more than anyone else in Westeros.

No, I already said he has the best claim and no reason to bend the knee to Daenerys.

It breaks down like this:

7 kingdoms
aegon conquers them -> legitimacy through conquest
now important for you: the heirs of the old 7 kingdowms lost their claim because of that, only targaryens matter now
targaryens rule for 800 years -> legitimacy through heritage
now important for you: sill, only targaryen heritage matters now, the 7 old kings still dont mean anything
robert host smashes aerys IIs army and kills him -> legitimacy through conquest
now important for you: just like before with the targaryens, the old rulers lost ALL their claim, only the baretheon line is important now
robert dies, he has no kids of his own, his oldest brother, sannis, is the one true king -> legitimacy through heritage

 

[Lach]

No, I already said he has the best claim and no reason to bend the knee to Daenerys.

It breaks down like this:

7 kingdoms
aegon conquers them -> legitimacy through conquest
now important for you: the heirs of the old 7 kingdowms lost their claim because of that, only targaryens matter now
targaryens rule for 800 years -> legitimacy through heritage
now important for you: sill, only targaryen heritage matters now, the 7 old kings still dont mean anything
robert host smashes aerys IIs army and kills him -> legitimacy through conquest
now important for you: just like before with the targaryens, the old rulers lost ALL their claim, only the baretheon line is important now
robert dies, he has no kids of his own, his oldest brother, sannis, is the one true king -> legitimacy through heritage

If I remember correctly Robert had SOME heritage claim to the throne through a targaryen marriage some generations ago...but it was mostly the conquest (and exiling the Targaryen children)....

 

[Duane Cunningham]

If I remember correctly Robert had SOME heritage claim to the throne through a targaryen marriage some generations ago...but it was mostly the conquest (and exiling the Targaryen children)....

Yeah, otherwise Ned probably could've just taken it instead (which Robert probably would've preferred anyway) and everyone would've been a lot better off.

...Well, actually the Lannisters still would've eaten him alive I imagine.

 

[Moff]

I dont think robert becoming king instead of ned had anything to do with his minor targaryen heritage. it was his rebellion, roberts rebellion, he was its leader. and if I remember correctly, its explained in the novels that Ned never had any desire to be king, he didnt even want to be hand.

 

[hemtae]

Renly said the only people that cared about Robert's Targaryan blood was Ned and the Maesters. But then again he was trying to justify his huge host and bid for the throne.

 

[Angry Grimace]

robert was rightful king
legitimacy through conquest

just like aegon tagaryen

so stannis is the rightful king and doesnt need to and wont bend the knee to anyone

If I remember correctly Robert had SOME heritage claim to the throne through a targaryen marriage some generations ago...but it was mostly the conquest (and exiling the Targaryen children)....

He was also the legitimate king anyways. He was the closest remaining male heir to the Targaryens since his father was first cousins with Aerys. But as someone said before, nobody really cared about that anymore other than say, Ned.

 

[hemtae]

He was also the legitimate king anyways. He was the closest remaining male heir to the Targaryens since his father was first cousins with Aerys. But as someone said before, nobody really cared about that anymore other than say, Ned.

Well actually Viserys was still alive.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Well actually Viserys was still alive.

I don't think it was common knowledge that Viserys was alive, though.

 

[Iksenpets]

If Stannis was the saint he sees himself as, he wouldn't support his brothers rebellion.

Wasn't Stannis confronted with that exact reasoning at one point, and answered that loyalty to family takes precedence over fealty to the king? So the moment Robert rebelled, it was his duty to rebel as well. I think that's part of why he's able to reconcile the fact that he wanted Robb dead, and in his mind is maybe even responsible for Robb's death, but is at the same time promising the Northmen revenge against the Freys and Boltons. Robb was a traitor in Stannis' eyes, but his various lords were just doing their duty to him. Likewise, even though Frey and Bolton brought about what Stannis wanted by killing Robb, they're criminals in his eyes because their loyalty should have been primarily to Robb.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Yeah, it seemed like Robert just wanted to bust heads and didn't really care about the throne. Really nobody wanted it, they just wanted the Targs off. Or specifically Mad Aerys off. Most people who remember Rhygar have a positive memory of him, except Robert who hated his guts more than anything because he "kidnapped" Robert's fiancee.

Even though Robert probably needed to spend some time listening to this song: http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/3530822107858574905/

 

[PhoenixDark]

I don't think it was common knowledge that Viserys was alive, though.

Everyone knew he had escaped alongside his sister.

Legitimacy strikes me as irrelevant. Robert won the throne with his war axe, not because of a tenuous connection to the previous line. Ned could have become king instead if the rebellion played out differently.

Likewise Dany has no real claim to the throne considering her family lost. If she can win the war she'll become queen, but the same was true of Renly and everyone else who was crowned.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

The thing about kingship that it's important to remember is that at the end of the day, it's always about leadership/effectiveness and all that guff about legitimacy and a divine right to rule etc. is just propaganda to mollify that bit of human nature that doesn't think it's very wise or particularly fair for that one guy should be in charge just because his dad was.

In medieval France (sort of... it was Francia, so it was technically proto-France or a ß-version of France), the kings came from the Merovingian line of succession. Thing is that somewhere along the way, they had either delegated away or had their effective power/control usurped by their nobles and officials, to the point where the king was just a bearded puppet for the man who was really in control - the Mayor Domo, Charles Martel.

It got to the point where Martel pulled an Odoacer and just declined to appoint a new king when the old one died. His son Pepin later wrote to the Pope, asking whether kingship lay in titles and heritage or where actual power resided. The Pope, needing Pepin to keep local Italian powers in check and himself wanting to break from the nominal power of the Emperor in far-off Qarth Constantinople, answered that the latter was true and anointed Pepin the king of Francia.

Incidentally, this story is why I think the Tyrells in Highgarden and the Martells in Dorne are badly named. The Martells should be ruling in Highgarden (France) and the Dornish (Spanish) should be the Castels/Aragorns/Asturians or something equally pseudo-Spanish-sounding.

 

[electroshockwave]

Yeah, otherwise Ned probably could've just taken it instead (which Robert probably would've preferred anyway) and everyone would've been a lot better off.

...Well, actually the Lannisters still would've eaten him alive I imagine.

He would have been married to Catelyn at that point so it's not like they would have gotten to the throne via Cersei but then who knows how Tywin would have acted.

 

[Wh0 N0se]

Haha, I just teased my dad that a real life event inspired the major event that will happen later on in the season. He thinks that someone major is going to change sides, I guess you could technically say he's true!

EDIT: Above ^^ Yeah, The whole landscape would be different had Ned taken the throne, Cersei would not have been married to Robert (Maybe) and thus the children may not have been born etc etc

Tywin may have decided to rebel but with Ned being as honourable as he was I think a lot of the realm would have backed him, although do we think Varys would have still been plotting for a Targ to take the crown had Ned taken the crown?
Weird how different everything could be if one person had decided to do one thing differently, I guess that's what's great about the books is that the characters motivations are very complex and do change with the situation rather than being one dimensional.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Haha, I just teased my dad that a real life event inspired the major event that will happen later on in the season. He thinks that someone major is going to change sides, I guess you could technically say he's true!

Yeah, someone is going to the "other side", all right!

 

[ahoyhoy]

He would have been married to Catelyn at that point so it's not like they would have gotten to the throne via Cersei but then who knows how Tywin would have acted.

It wouldn't have mattered if Ned had married Cersei or not. They would have had the strength of The North, The Vale, The Riverlands, and The Stormlands behind him, just as Robert did before he wed into House Lannister. The only way Tywin could have threatened their rule is if he had somehow created an alliance between Casterly Rock, Highgarden, and Sunspear (which would have been difficult, proving the events that transpired during the rebellion as well as historical malice between The Reach and Dorne/Westerlands).

Ned could have easily become king and held it while Tywin would have had to bite his tongue. The only real risk would have been Tywin hatching a plot to marry Cersei to Viserys, but with Illyrio/Varys meddling I couldn't see that happening.

 

[Joni]

Yeah, otherwise Ned probably could've just taken it instead (which Robert probably would've preferred anyway) and everyone would've been a lot better off.

Ned didn't want to though.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

Ned didn't want to though.

No but neither did Robert, I don't think. I bet if everyone had twisted Ned's arm, and told him that it was for the good of the kingdom, he would have reluctantly taken it (and would have been a thousand times better a king than Robert. Or Joffrey, or the mad king Aerys).

 

[Joni]

No but neither did Robert, I don't think. I bet if everyone had twisted Ned's arm, and told him that it was for the good of the kingdom, he would have reluctantly taken it (and would have been a thousand times better a king than Robert. Or Joffrey, or the mad king Aerys).

After they took King's Landing Ned and Robert did have the falling out that lead to Ned leaving King's Landing in a hurry, so at that point it might not have been wise for Arryn to convince Robert to give Ned the crown. A lot depends on when Robert was crowned: before or after Lyanna's death and his renewed friendship with Ned.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

"Legitimacy" like power in the riddle, lies who whomever people believe it lies with. Robert's claim was strong for reasons of conquest and relation. Some people would be swayed by one reason, and some by the other reason. More importantly, other contenders would be deterred by the fact that he had two pillars to stake a claim on.

And even so, there are doubtless many closeted Targ loyalists.

 

[Wh0 N0se]

"Legitimacy" like power in the riddle, lies who whomever people believe it lies with. Robert's claim was strong for reasons of conquest and relation. Some people would be swayed by one reason, and some by the other reason. More importantly, other contenders would be deterred by the fact that he had two pillars to stake a claim on.

And even so, there are doubtless many closeted Targ loyalists.

Are there really? I mean other than Varys and Illyrio the only people who I can think of who are Targ supporters would be Dorne

 

[Moff]

Are there really? I mean other than Varys and Illyrio the only people who I can think of who are Targ supporters would be Dorne

I cant name any lines, but I think the books left the impression that the targaryens are/were quite beloved with the peolpe and many would welcome a targaryen king.

or maybe that was just jorah trying to motivate danaerys.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

It remains to be proven, but the suggestion was that there were Targ loyalists in the Southern kingdoms, and that Aegon's arrival would spark them. I'm sure there were some other mentions as well.

Despite the long Summer, it's been referenced that Robert has been a pretty terrible King as well, and I am sure that would also leave some pining for Targs.

 

[Cornballer]

A long article on ASoIaF and Game of Thrones (HBO) in the London Review of Books. I figure this is more appropriate for this thread. Spoilers throughout the series.

- When did you get hooked?

 

[hemtae]

Are there really? I mean other than Varys and Illyrio the only people who I can think of who are Targ supporters would be Dorne

House Darry was pretty big Targaryan supporters after the war but I think they were all wiped out in the War of Five Kings. Tyrion bribed some guard to show the old tapestries in the vault or something.

 

[Chris R]

Even if they weren't Targ supporters then, if they didn't like the reign of Robert or Joff and see any way for their house to move up the food chain as it were they will jump at the first chance. Get in with the new team while still on the ground floor and hope they become king one day and remember who their loyal friends are.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Well actually Viserys was still alive.

Viserys had fled across the sea, though.

With Viserys and Dany out of the picture, Robert actually was the legitimate heir to the throne, which is an important distinction to make. That's one of the reasons why the transition to Robert's rule was relatively painless once the rebellion was over.

 

[cubicle47b]

When did you get hooked?

That was interesting. GRRM really had the first numbered ticket at the first Comic-Con. That's insane.

 

[sega4ever]

Wasn't Stannis confronted with that exact reasoning at one point, and answered that loyalty to family takes precedence over fealty to the king? So the moment Robert rebelled, it was his duty to rebel as well. I think that's part of why he's able to reconcile the fact that he wanted Robb dead, and in his mind is maybe even responsible for Robb's death, but is at the same time promising the Northmen revenge against the Freys and Boltons. Robb was a traitor in Stannis' eyes, but his various lords were just doing their duty to him. Likewise, even though Frey and Bolton brought about what Stannis wanted by killing Robb, they're criminals in his eyes because their loyalty should have been primarily to Robb.

the freys and boltons broke the ancient law of guest right, which means their going to get wrecked.

there is only one man the north can turn to for justice
the one man who answered to wall's call for aid
the one true king
protector of the realm
azor ahai reborn
stannis baratheon the first of his name

 

[Wh0 N0se]

A long article on ASoIaF and Game of Thrones (HBO) in the London Review of Books. I figure this is more appropriate for this thread. Spoilers throughout the series.

- When did you get hooked?

An interesting read, a couple of mistakes, like the amount of kings in ACOK but I enjoyed it and he covered most points that I encounter when talking to people about the series.

The main being, of course, that they don't like things with Magic and stuff, my dad enjoys the series, I made him read the first book, he hasn't read any past that but he prefers reading books about actual historical stories. He dislikes the magic in the series but I try to point out that even in the first scene of the whole series, it's set up that there is magic in the world, you just have to accept it. He really didn't like the 'Shadow baby' stuff in ACOK, which is strange and funny because most people in the book forum seem to have enjoyed that moment.

It's a shame that people can't look past the magic in fantasies considering most of the stuff they watch is generally not real anyway, I think people still perceive it to be maybe a tad childish (Which is a problem gaming used to have). I hope that people can look beyond that when they're looking for new books, the viewing figures for the S3 premiere and the increase in book sales seem to suggest that we're hopefully moving in the right direction and people are willing to read and experience fantasy books.

 

[Jack Scofield]

I never liked Stannis in the books. He's so boring and humorless. In the show he's great, though. But it's the opposite with Dany: I can't stand her in the show, but she's one of my favorite characters in the books (until her storyline screeched to a halt in AFFC, that is).

 

[lingiii]

the freys and boltons broke the ancient law of guest right, which means their going to get wrecked.

there is only one man the north can turn to for justice
the one man who answered to wall's call for aid
the one true king
protector of the realm
azor ahai reborn
stannis baratheon the first of his name

lolnope. note a chance

also fr srs, I can't wait for the shit to come raining down on the Freys/Boltons. I'm hanging my hat on the crannogmen being some serious motherfuckers, come pouring out of the bogs to reclaim passage across the Neck for the Forces of Good, someone else drives the Freys/Boltons into them to get murdered.

goddamn when is Howland Reed going to show up. This guy is seriously my most favorite character I hope it doesn't turn out he's a shit head.

 

[Trojita]

I never liked Stannis in the books. He's so boring and humorless. In the show he's great, though. But it's the opposite with Dany: I can't stand her in the show, but she's one of my favorite characters in the books (until her storyline screeched to a halt in AFFC, that is).

I feel the opposite. I liked book Stannis better.

 

[Wh0 N0se]

lolnope. note a chance

also fr srs, I can't wait for the shit to come raining down on the Freys/Boltons. I'm hanging my hat on the crannogmen being some serious motherfuckers, come pouring out of the bogs to reclaim passage across the Neck for the Forces of Good, someone else drives the Freys/Boltons into them to get murdered.

goddamn when is Howland Reed going to show up. This guy is seriously my most favorite character I hope it doesn't turn out he's a shit head.

Wait, has anyone actually even seen Howland Reed and Superman in the same room!?!?!?!??!

But yeah, seriously, it'd be nice if he made an appearance in the books sooner rather than later!

I never liked Stannis in the books. He's so boring and humorless. In the show he's great, though. But it's the opposite with Dany: I can't stand her in the show, but she's one of my favorite characters in the books (until her storyline screeched to a halt in AFFC, that is).

I think Stannis is quite amusing in the books, Dany's story in ACOK didn't really come across well on the TV and I think the character suffered for it, all that 'I am the blood of the dragon' etc etc. She just came across as a whiny spoilt girl.

 

[John Dunbar]

Regarding Stannis and his legitimacy: he has a Targ grandparent so he's still more "legitimate" than Daenerys, since according to the laws of Westeros women can't claim the throne as long as there is a single male heir. So Targ or Baratheon, Stannis is the King.

(Jon is a bastard and Aegon is a fake)

 

[hemtae]

Regarding Stannis and his legitimacy: he has a Targ grandparent so he's still more "legitimate" than Daenerys, since according to the laws of Westeros women can't claim the throne as long as there is a single male heir. So Targ or Baratheon, Stannis is the King.

(Jon is a bastard and Aegon is a fake)

I'm not entirely sure that's true as Alys Karstark was suppose to inherit Karhold over her uncle.

 

[Snake]

Regarding Stannis and his legitimacy: he has a Targ grandparent so he's still more "legitimate" than Daenerys, since according to the laws of Westeros women can't claim the throne as long as there is a single male heir. So Targ or Baratheon, Stannis is the King.

(Jon is a bastard and Aegon is a fake)

Rhaegar was a polygamist in true Targaryen fashion and Jon is legit. Too legit, in fact, and for that reason Stannis must quit.

 

[lingiii]

A: Dany ain't going to inherit shit, she's going to take it. Fuck laws.

B: Jon won't sit the throne because his Night's Watch vows. Although, maybe after all the stabbings they'll release him from those / cast him out, but I don't see him being super eager to go play the game of proper thrones over the game of Frozen Thrones after he was, you know, stabbed to fuck and back as Lord Commander.

also what if he's just straight dead! :lol

 

[sega4ever]

A: Dany ain't going to inherit shit, she's going to take it. Fuck laws.

B: Jon won't sit the throne because his Night's Watch vows. Although, maybe after all the stabbings they'll release him from those / cast him out, but I don't see him being super eager to go play the game of proper thrones over the game of Frozen Thrones after he was, you know, stabbed to fuck and back as Lord Commander.

also what if he's just straight dead! :lol

you must have missed the part where jon was going to march on winterfell with an army of freefolk. i think that counts as breaking a vow or two.

 

[arglebargle]

lolnope. note a chance

also fr srs, I can't wait for the shit to come raining down on the Freys/Boltons. I'm hanging my hat on the crannogmen being some serious motherfuckers, come pouring out of the bogs to reclaim passage across the Neck for the Forces of Good, someone else drives the Freys/Boltons into them to get murdered.

goddamn when is Howland Reed going to show up. This guy is seriously my most favorite character I hope it doesn't turn out he's a shit head.

its probably too cliched for the series, but i love the idea of reed and the crannogmen, the mormonts, the wulls, the manderlys, and a few other northern houses completely destroying the freys, boltons, and maybe even the karstarks. the karstarks may deserve a punishment less dramatic than the others.

 

[electroshockwave]

Regarding Stannis and his legitimacy: he has a Targ grandparent so he's still more "legitimate" than Daenerys, since according to the laws of Westeros women can't claim the throne as long as there is a single male heir. So Targ or Baratheon, Stannis is the King.

(Jon is a bastard and Aegon is a fake)

Yes but his Targ grandparent was a woman. Dany is from the firstborrn male line of inheritance. In the same way Sansa or Arya would have a stronger claim than their random cousin in the Vale.

B: Jon won't sit the throne because his Night's Watch vows. Although, maybe after all the stabbings they'll release him from those / cast him out, but I don't see him being super eager to go play the game of proper thrones over the game of Frozen Thrones after he was, you know, stabbed to fuck and back as Lord Commander.

Hear my words and bear witness to my vow. Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

 

[lingiii]

yeah, I'm saying I don't really see him leaving the Watch. Jon's pretty honorable anyway, I don't see him wanting to leave after settling the Bastard of Bolton, which is really indirectly important for the Watch.

 

[Emerson]

yeah, I'm saying I don't really see him leaving the Watch. Jon's pretty honorable anyway, I don't see him wanting to leave after settling the Bastard of Bolton, which is really indirectly important for the Watch.

Considering he was stabbed to death by a bunch of prominent Nights Watch comrades I have the feeling he'll be able to justify leaving if his vows aren't breached.

 

[lingiii]

Considering he was stabbed to death by a bunch of prominent Nights Watch comrades I have the feeling he'll be able to justify leaving if his vows aren't breached.

Northerners at least are pretty insistent about killing deserters. I suppose he could just go down to Dany, WRECK SUCH SHIT ON THE WALKERS that the Watch can be disbanded before he's but to death.

race for your life, Jon!

 

[Wh0 N0se]

Jon's not exactly going to want to stay around with a group of people who just killed him.

 

[Memento Mori]

I never liked Stannis in the books. He's so boring and humorless. In the show he's great, though. But it's the opposite with Dany: I can't stand her in the show, but she's one of my favorite characters in the books (until her storyline screeched to a halt in AFFC, that is).

He's not humorless. "Her own father got this child on her? We are well rid of her, then. I will not suffer such abominations here. This is not King's Landing."