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[Trojita]

Even if he wasn't on the Kingsguard in the book at that point, I don't think Loras would agree to the marriage proposal. He would see it as a betrayel of Renly and the fact that he was on the Rainbow Guard.

 

[BeEatNU]

no that's not the one The one I'm referring to actually has all the evidence laid out, like actual quotes and everything.

OH snap I found it by accident: http://www.towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.html

That's the one. Really good stuff.

holy shit.

 

[Eidan]

The whole point of the Willas union was that Sansa would be safe in Highgarden and The Tyrell's were mainly doing it to plot and get a potential Stark heir (if Robb dies) married to the heir of their family. Besides being a power play it would piss the Lannisters off. The other thing is that Willas might have been loving to Sansa, while we know Loras has no interest towards her. Has it ever been said Loras is the heir of Highgarden on the show either? Logic would dictate it would be dumb as fuck for the Tyrell's to bring both children to Kings Landing. There is a reason Willas was left in Highgarden, and it isn't because he is a cripple.

I'm still not seeing what the big deal is.

1) Sansa would still go to Highgarden, as is mentioned on the show.
2) Even if Loras is not the heir to Highgarden, being married to Sansa would still give the Tyrells the North.
3) The move would still piss the Lannisters off.
4) Willas might have been loving to Sansa, true. What's your point?

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

one big change though that they haven't shown is Loras' fighting ability. he was supposed to be 2nd to jaime when it comes to swordfighting.

i mean, he killed what, 3 knights in his rage when Renly died?

I might be wrong but I seem to remember Garlan being the most skilled Tyrell with a sword whilst Loras was more able with lance and steed. However given Loras is an amalgamation of all the Tyrell boys in the show I guess it's possible he's more proficient with a blade.

 

[Trojita]

I'm still not seeing what the big deal is.

1) Sansa would still go to Highgarden, as is mentioned on the show.
2) Even if Loras is not the heir to Highgarden, being married to Sansa would still give the Tyrells the North.
3) The move would still piss the Lannisters off.
4) Willas might have been loving to Sansa, true. What's your point?

The change isn't a big deal to me. I'd say this would be disappointing to hear that Willas might then not appear in the books, but the shows introduced characters later anyway.

But for Sansa, besides getting to go to Highgarden, Sansa was a little reproachful to hear he couldn't use his legs, but the fact that his sister hinted he was a good person had her elated.

I don't think the change was needed, he would be mentioned once or twice and the audience would realize she had an older brother. I think its a bit different with the show expecting people to know who Rhaegar is a few seasons into the show without a competent backstory about him.

 

[Trojita]

I might be wrong but I seem to remember Garlan being the most skilled Tyrell with a sword whilst Loras was more able with lance and steed. However given Loras is an amalgamation of all the Tyrell boys in the show I guess it's possible he's more proficient with a blade.

He might be on the same level as Loras or better, but because of how humble he is and that he doesn't seek glory, he isn't nearly as popular as his brother.

 

[exYle]

Never mind the implied relationship between him and Oberyn.

Shit! I knew they talked and had an amiable relationship, but I never put those two together.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I loved seeing people complain about the significance of Willas being who Sansa is proposed to, as if that significance is lost if Loras is the one Sansa is proposed to. Book purism at its finest.

Hell, I'm the token book purist here and even I think it's fine. I only object to changes that significantly alter the plot, or that alter character personalities and/or motivations. This does absolutely nothing of the sort.

Shit! I knew they talked and had an amiable relationship, but I never put those two together.

Why would you? Why would anyone think they had anything more?

 

[Moff]

He didn't actually kill the sorcerer. In character he might be planning to use him to understand more about magic or gain knowledge for his own needs.

If this was the case though, showing him to Tyrion was somewhat out of character as he gave up a potential advantage.

true, he didnt kill him, yet.
but anyway, this still does not the match the varys I know from the books, I never saw him as a "man you dont want to mess with", not at all. and in the show thats now exactly what he is. a player in the game that plays for himself, like anyone else, and not for the realm, like in the books. its what made him special. for me, this is the biggest change of a character we've seen so far. but apparently no one else seems to be bothered by this.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

true, he didnt kill him, yet.
but anyway, this still does not the match the varys I know from the books, I never saw him as a "man you dont want to mess with", not at all. and in the show thats now exactly what he is. a player in the game that plays for himself, like anyone else, and not for the realm, like in the books. its what made him special. for me, this is the biggest change of a character we've seen so far. but apparently no one else seems to be bothered by this.

I had a reaction to it. Not the revenge angle, but rather that it was happening right then. Varys speaks with some serious venom about that mage in the books.

Also, based on the last epilogue*, I've been wondering if Varys was indeed cut. This seems to make it more likely.

* Varys is described as having a deeper voice than he normally does.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

holy shit.

crazy stuff eh, the stuff you pick up by reading analysis online. Makes me want to go back and read things.

 

[blainethemono]

crazy stuff eh, the stuff you pick up by reading analysis online. Makes me want to go back and read things.

Their whole essays & analysis section is amazing. I love the layout too. The one about sandor and gregor is my favorite

 

[Angry Grimace]

The whole point of the Willas union was that Sansa would be safe in Highgarden and The Tyrell's were mainly doing it to plot and get a potential Stark heir (if Robb dies) married to the heir of their family. Besides being a power play it would piss the Lannisters off. The other thing is that Willas might have been loving to Sansa, while we know Loras has no interest towards her. Has it ever been said Loras is the heir of Highgarden on the show either? Logic would dictate it would be dumb as fuck for the Tyrell's to bring both children to Kings Landing. There is a reason Willas was left in Highgarden, and it isn't because he is a cripple.

This requires a lot of insight that only really exists within the books. The Loras change is fine, because practically no TV viewer is going to notice/care that it wouldn't be prudent to send the Heir of Highgarden to King's Landing. That's book logic.

 

[Minus_Me]

I consider myself an attentive reader but reading through tower of the hand puts my understanding of the series to shame. They've done some amazing work all around. Is there any way to donate some money to them?

 

[PhoenixDark]

I'm still not seeing what the big deal is.

1) Sansa would still go to Highgarden, as is mentioned on the show.
2) Even if Loras is not the heir to Highgarden, being married to Sansa would still give the Tyrells the North.
3) The move would still piss the Lannisters off.
4) Willas might have been loving to Sansa, true. What's your point?

Agreed 100%. I've also heard people argue changing it from Willas to Loras makes the emotional hit less dramatic or something. If anything it makes it even bigger of a blow; going from Loras to Tyrion is definitely worse than Willas to Tyrion, from Sansa's perspective.

Sansa shippers and fans are pretty annoying. We don't have any on GAF but if you listen to the Podcast of Ice and Fire you know what I'm talking about.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Agreed 100%. I've also heard people argue changing it from Willas to Loras makes the emotional hit less dramatic or something. If anything it makes it even bigger of a blow; going from Loras to Tyrion is definitely worse than Willas to Tyrion, from Sansa's perspective.

Sansa shippers and fans are pretty annoying. We don't have any on GAF but if you listen to the Podcast of Ice and Fire you know what I'm talking about.

It even makes sense considering the books since Sansa originally presumed that the QoT meant Loras since we weren't particularly familiar with either Garlan or Willas.

I always thought it was rather odd that Willas is unmarried as it is given the way marraige pacts work in Westeros plus the fact that Willas is the heir to Highgarden. I may have missed something in the book that explained why.

 

[Drkirby]

Maybe it was taboo for a "king" to have Grandkids while still in power? All I know is that none of the high lord heirs in the entire kingdom were married at the start of the series.

 

[bone_and_sinew]

http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-reader-friendly-combined-reading-order-for-a

Thats the only one I know of, I think there are supposed to be a few variations though

This is going to make my series reread before tWoW comes out in 4 years much better.

 

[bengraven]

Holy shit.



Who is Wylla? So she's a wetnurse to Jon and Edric, right? Some nurse that Ned trusted his deepest, darkest secret to?

What if Wylla wasn't actually Wylla, but someone else claiming to be a Dayne wetnurse? Some significant person.

Maybe the Septa that traveled with Tyrion. Fuck, maybe Lyanna herself.

This is going to make my series reread before tWoW comes out in 4 years much better.

That's the version I'm re-reading.

 

[Forsaken82]

Yeah, they tell Sansa she can marry Loras instead.




That's right, I swore he became a Kingsguard to replace the Hound right after the engagement of his sister was announced.

I believe he becomes Kingsguard for Tommen

 

[Trasher]

Holy shit.



Who is Wylla? So she's a wetnurse to Jon and Edric, right? Some nurse that Ned trusted his deepest, darkest secret to?

What if Wylla wasn't actually Wylla, but someone else claiming to be a Dayne wetnurse? Some significant person.

Maybe the Septa that traveled with Tyrion. Fuck, maybe Lyanna herself.



That's the version I'm re-reading.

Wait, you didn't know about the R+L=J theory?

Or what exactly are you "holy shit'ing" at?

Edit: Or were you referring to the AFFC/ADWD combined reading guide?

 

[PhoenixDark]

It even makes sense considering the books since Sansa originally presumed that the QoT meant Loras since we weren't particularly familiar with either Garlan or Willas.

I always thought it was rather odd that Willas is unmarried as it is given the way marraige pacts work in Westeros plus the fact that Willas is the heir to Highgarden. I may have missed something in the book that explained why.

Garlan had some interesting info in ASOS, he sounds like a badass (and is married). I agree about Willis though, his situation is very odd. Definitely a character I'm very interested in; I don't know how we'd see him in a POV but I hope it happens. He sounds like the second smartest Tyrell behind QoT.

Seems like Arrianne and Connington are the only POV chapters in that vicinity, and they're still pretty far away from him.

 

[bengraven]

Wait, you didn't know about the R+L=J theory?

Or what exactly are you "holy shit'ing" at?

Edit: Or were you referring to the AFFC/ADWD combined reading guide?

No, what I'm saying is:

Why did Ned trust his secret to a wetnurse in some faraway land (even if he was fucking her or loved her in his young way), but couldn't tell his wife?

What's make Wylla more important than Cat when it comes to the secret of his nephew's origin? Maybe convenience: she was there, he needed her at the moment to feed this kid. Or maybe she never even knew that it wasn't his kid.

But she obviously knew she had to pretend to be it's mom.

Why couldn't he tell Cat, but he could tell her?

 

[ahoyhoy]

From The Golem and the Gravedigger

From AGOT, Bran III:

One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

What.
The.
Fuck.

GRRM sure knows how to play the long-game. He hinted at the battle over Cersei's fate all the way back in GoT.

 

[LAUGHTREY]

Holy shit.



Who is Wylla? So she's a wetnurse to Jon and Edric, right? Some nurse that Ned trusted his deepest, darkest secret to?

What if Wylla wasn't actually Wylla, but someone else claiming to be a Dayne wetnurse? Some significant person.

Maybe the Septa that traveled with Tyrion. Fuck, maybe Lyanna herself.



That's the version I'm re-reading.

Where did you get that? He just has to find someone to nurse Jon because his mom wasn't around.

 

[Trasher]

No, what I'm saying is:

Why did Ned trust his secret to a wetnurse in some faraway land (even if he was fucking her or loved her in his young way), but couldn't tell his wife?

What's make Wylla more important than Cat when it comes to the secret of his nephew's origin? Maybe convenience: she was there, he needed her at the moment to feed this kid. Or maybe she never even knew that it wasn't his kid.

But she obviously knew she had to pretend to be it's mom.

Why couldn't he tell Cat, but he could tell her?

Yeah I've always wondered why he couldn't tell Cat. Just because Lyanna made him promise not to? Seems like there's something more to it than just that. Maybe Lyanna knew that Cat was good at fucking things up lol.

And Howland Reed must know too...or maybe he just knows a fraction of it or something. Either way though, whether anyone knows anything, it still makes you wonder why.

From The Golem and the Gravedigger



What.
The.
Fuck.

GRRM sure knows how to play the long-game. He hinted at the battle over Cersei's fate all the way back in GoT.

Yeah someone in this thread linked that a little while back for me to read. Pretty crazy haha.

 

[Trojita]

Garlan had some interesting info in ASOS, he sounds like a badass (and is married). I agree about Willis though, his situation is very odd. Definitely a character I'm very interested in; I don't know how we'd see him in a POV but I hope it happens. He sounds like the second smartest Tyrell behind QoT.

Seems like Arrianne and Connington are the only POV chapters in that vicinity, and they're still pretty far away from him.

Garlan was also the only one to praise Tyrion for his role in the Battle at Blackwater Bay and disliked how Joffrey treated the book Tyrion gave him for his wedding gift.

 

[Trojita]

Yeah I've always wondered why he couldn't tell Cat. Just because Lyanna made him promise not to? Seems like there's something more to it than just that. Maybe Lyanna knew that Cat was good at fucking things up lol.

And Howland Reed must know too...or maybe he just knows a fraction of it or something. Either way though, whether anyone knows anything, it still makes you wonder why.

Tell no one Ned.

To Ned that means no one.

 

[Trasher]

Tell no one Ned.

To Ned that means no one.

But someone has to know!

WE must know!

 

[MuddyDonut]

Finally finished ADWD
What should I do now?

 

[bengraven]

Just weird to me that this woman knows, he could trust her with his secret. Howland, no excuse - he's a friend and he was there.

He could have easily just told her it was a commoner's child or his bastard from somewhere else (and maybe he did, but we just don't know yet), but if she knows then she's in on it.

And yet he wouldn't let his wife in on it, even years later when he truly loved her.

Finally finished ADWD
What should I do now?

Welcome to the long waiting game.

Fill the void with Jack Vance, Joe Abercrombie, Scott Lynch, Jack Vance, Glenn Cook and of course Gene Wolfe and Jack Vance.

Maybe The Name of the Wind or Robert Jordan or the Malazan books and the Demon Cycyle by Peter Brett. The Night Angel Trilogy.

 

[Chris R]

I really wish the Dunk & Egg collection would come out I really want to read them but I've been too lazy to track down the other things they appear in.

 

[timetokill]

Finally finished ADWD
What should I do now?

Start posting in the No Book Spoilers show thread, post haste!

Spoiler

don't do this

 

[CrunchyB]

Tell no one Ned.

To Ned that means no one.

He probably told "The Gods" though. So it's only a matter of time until Bran knows.

 

[Trasher]

He probably told "The Gods" though. So it's only a matter of time until Bran knows.

Oooo. Didn't think about that. Bran will know all. Except how will that play out...

"I know who Jon's parents are."

"Oh yeah, who told you?"

"...the trees..."

"..."

 

[Chris R]

Poor Bran stuck inside the tree internet forever

 

[FootballFan]

Finally finished ADWD
What should I do now?

Read the Dunk and Egg novellas.
Watch the TV show.
Wait.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Oooo. Didn't think about that. Bran will know all. Except how will that play out...

"I know who Jon's parents are."

"Oh yeah, who told you?"

"...the trees..."

"..."

"Whelp, this kid is fucking crazy"

 

[CrunchyB]

Poor Bran stuck inside the tree internet forever

I wonder if he is going to make a habit of hijacking Hodor. I'm assuming the big man will join Jojen and Meera back to the south. If he can master speech as well, that would be crazy.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Finally finished ADWD
What should I do now?

I guess go to westeros.org and look up theories. Welcome to The Watch. We are the sword in the darkness of Wildcards, NFL seasons, and conventions

thoughts on ADWD?

 

[negreenfield]

Finally finished ADWD
What should I do now?

I went over all of the theories and have started a re-read when I realized I missed a lot. I'm about 10 chapters through book 1.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I always thought it was rather odd that Willas is unmarried as it is given the way marraige pacts work in Westeros plus the fact that Willas is the heir to Highgarden. I may have missed something in the book that explained why.

Maybe being a cripple has something to do with it. Though I imagine there must be quite a few men who suffered crippling war wounds and are still easy to marry, so I dunno... I found that strange too. Maybe they were just waiting for the right bride?

 

[bengraven]

You think Bran is stuck in the tree forever?

Something makes me go "yes".

I'm not sure what that is...

 

[ZeroRay]

I think Bran knows already. Remember the crow cawing "Jon Snow! King!" in his last chapter?

But yeah, Bran ain't going anywhere. He probably won't even get a POV anymore either.

We'll see a near-dead and horrified Meera halfway through Winds drag herself to the Wall to let us know of Jojen's horrific fate and warn everyone of Bloodraven's evil intents.

 

[FootballFan]

I think Bran knows already. Remember the crow cawing "Jon Snow! King!" in his last chapter?

But yeah, Bran ain't going anywhere. He probably won't even get a POV anymore either.

We'll see a near-dead and horrified Meera halfway through Winds drag herself to the Wall to let us know of Jojen's horrific fate and warn everyone of Bloodraven's evil intents.

I hope Bloodraven aka Brynden Rivers does not turn out to be an evil entity in the story. And if Jojen did get turned into paste (which I sincerly hope did not happen), then it must of been some sort of necessary sacrifice in order to unleash Bran 'The Treenet' Stark's dormant powers. Bran will effectively become a god in that cave, and like you said will never leave it.

 

[Last Hearth]

Honestly, Jojen paste is very much a crackpot theory. I don't know why people are acting as though it is semi-canon a la R+L=J.

 

[hemtae]

I haven't read the Dunk and Egg stories, but why do people think Bloodraven is evil? It doesn't sound like he was all that evil, people just hated him due to the kinslaying stigma.

 

[Trojita]

lol wut this is the first time I'm hearing about Jojen paste.

 

[Last Hearth]

I haven't read the Dunk and Egg stories, but why do people think Bloodraven is evil? It doesn't sound like he was all that evil, people just hated him due to the kinslaying stigma.

He's also believed to be a practitioner of black magic.

 

[FootballFan]

He's also believed to be a practitioner of black magic.

It is known.