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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**
- Thread starter Pollux
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I'm waiting to get the first book back from the person I loaned it to because I want to reread as well. Going to do the combined AFFC&ADWD when I get that far and see how that works compared to reading them one after the other.
Archaeopteryx
Member
I always start at the beginning during re reads of any series. It doesn't feel right otherwise.
I am about 3/4 the way through AGOT and I still wish Ned had just up and left Kings Landing immediately after his fight with Robert. He'd still be alive, although the plot would have advanced very differently.
...?
bengraven
Member
Wow, just realized Stannis and his daughter are the only legit Baratheons left.
Sure, we have bastards, but they're not legit. And Tommen and Myrcella are legally Baratheons, but technically are illegal.
Same! A fellow GAFfer made a combined copy and my wife was lucky to have read that as her first time through.
I'll be reading that version.
(not saying their name just in case people frown on that)
Yeah, because I know I'm going to want to keep reading after I'm done...plus see above.
Sure, we have bastards, but they're not legit. And Tommen and Myrcella are legally Baratheons, but technically are illegal.
Same! A fellow GAFfer made a combined copy and my wife was lucky to have read that as her first time through.
I'll be reading that version.
(not saying their name just in case people frown on that)
Yeah, because I know I'm going to want to keep reading after I'm done...plus see above.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I also believe the Doom had something to do with the technological devolution the world seems to be in. The world allegedly has thousands of years worth of history yet overall it hasn't advanced much; Tyrion noted Westerosi stonemasons can't pave roads, something dragons and magic created years ago, but has since been lost. The seasons play a part too - obviously if you're having 20-30 year winters, it's going to be hard to make much technological advancement with all activity being stopped and tons of people dying due to weather.
I just hope there's not some moment where we find out that either Valyria has been rebuilt in secret, or that there's another mystery continent featuring technically advanced people who arrive just in time to take Dany to Westeros/kill the Others.
I just hope there's not some moment where we find out that either Valyria has been rebuilt in secret, or that there's another mystery continent featuring technically advanced people who arrive just in time to take Dany to Westeros/kill the Others.
ASoIaF is the only series of books I ever re-read. I ended up reading them all 3 times.
It's surprisingly fun the second time and third time. You know what's coming, so you can pay extra attention to all the subtle hints, foreshadowing and implied events.
For instance, Ned showing his cards to Cersei in AGoT is just painful on a second read, because you know how she will react. The books are full of stuff like that.
Dragonsteel is thought to be another name for Valyrian steel, although not confirmed.
Love the name of those valyrian blades by the way:
- Widow's Wail
- Oathkeeper
- Heartsbane
- Longclaw
- Lady Forlorn
- Red Rain
- Nightfall
- Ice
- Blackfyre
- Brightroar
- Dark Sister
BertramCooper
Banned
The series is going to end like The Village.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Just FYI in case someone's confused: the NW brothers find dragonglass daggers, not "dragonsteel". Dragonglass is another name for obsidian.
Dawn is neither Valyrian Steel nor dragonglass, but made from metal mined from a fallen meteorite.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Someone in the non book show thread brought up a point and I'm curious cause I may have missed it whilst reading. It was about how Barristan should have known she spoke high valerian because he worked for the Targaryens, I believe. I don't feel like digging it up again.
Daenerys happens to speak high valerian because of she was essentially raised in Essos and lived with Illyrio. Essos, I am assuming was more likely versed in the 'arts' of the language moreso than their Westerosi counterparts.
Or was that because most of the Targaryens spoke it as well? I may have missed that.
Daenerys happens to speak high valerian because of she was essentially raised in Essos and lived with Illyrio. Essos, I am assuming was more likely versed in the 'arts' of the language moreso than their Westerosi counterparts.
Or was that because most of the Targaryens spoke it as well? I may have missed that.
Basileus777
Member
I don't recall the Targs being noted for speaking High Valyrian. So yeah, your assumption is probably accurate.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Yeah, the "Valyrian is my mother tongue" bit is show-only, I'm sure. Dany's mother tongue is the Andal language spoken in Westeros (aka the "common tongue"). She's no doubt fluent in Valyrian since she was raised in Essos and was around people who spoken the vulgar form of it, and of course she learned Dothraki, but her mother tongue is no doubt Andal.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
I think my main thing was whether the Targs spoke it when they ruled Westeros. I never recalled it being mentioned but I assume they'd been so far removed that they spoke the common tongue.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I just checked the book, and Barristan does know some Valyrian, but not as much as Dany. Presumably he's well read, being a highborn knight, but yeah, I don't think it's because Targs spoke it at court.
No. All Targaryen, including those in Dunk'n Egg have spoken the common tongue, though that isn't to say they didn't learn and speak High Valyrian, as a formality. Sort of like learning Latin.
I think the Targaryens have more or less completely adapted to Westeros culture. They even took the faith of the seven, even though Valyrians had their own religion.
smokeandmirrors
Banned
Eh. Probably the least consequential change they've made thus far.
What about Willas!?!?!?
Haha, don't really see why they removed him, he's only there in name anyways.
I wish they kept Willas =(
He seemed like such a gentle, conscientious person. Probably would make a great lord.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
Nearly a the end of ASoS and Bran walked through the Black Gate, Oberyn just got killed, Dany sent Jorah away and Jon just got arrested by Janos Slynt. Sansa just met Lysa and Arya is doing something or other with the Hound.
It's really hard for me to care about Arya.
Anyone got the link to the suggested Feast/Dance combo order?
It's really hard for me to care about Arya.
Anyone got the link to the suggested Feast/Dance combo order?
blainethemono
Member
http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-reader-friendly-combined-reading-order-for-a
Thats the only one I know of, I think there are supposed to be a few variations though
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Arya used the coin at the end of the book to book a ship to Braavos.
We learn later that Saltpans was destroyed after she left.
Moff
Member
It was a cool scene, but I wonder why it has not stirred up a bigger fuss.
I think its one of the biggest changes from the books we have seen yet , bigger than arya in my opinion.
Or did I miss something?
Varys is a eunuch, he does not have a legacy, even the people he kills in ADWD, he kills for his plan, for the realm. never for himself.
I am aware that there are theories that he is lying when he says he ha no own agenda and only wante the best for the realm, but is that really certain? Have I missed something?
So the scene in the last episode was quite shocking for me, because that was the first thing I saw of him that he did only for himself, petty vengeance. Its something littlefinger would do, but not varys.
Boom Boom Pow
Banned
maybe the shower creator know something we don't? remember, George talked to the show producers
I'd say pretty high on Loras, as to why I'm not really sure, we'll see.
I don't think the Varys things is that important, It's only a slight change when you think about it, you'll still get the same end result even if they've gone a different route.
Also, I think GRRM doesn't look at every script, he may look at stuff that varies from the book to make sure there's nothing that messes anything up but it's possible they did the Varys stuff without him knowing too much about it.
I don't think the Varys things is that important, It's only a slight change when you think about it, you'll still get the same end result even if they've gone a different route.
Also, I think GRRM doesn't look at every script, he may look at stuff that varies from the book to make sure there's nothing that messes anything up but it's possible they did the Varys stuff without him knowing too much about it.
Low. Very low I'd wager. That seems like a hard lie to tell. Not sure why they would lie about it either.
Did we see the last of Loras? No, of course not.
Moff
Member
I am not saying its impossible, I am just wondering why no one has adressed this yet, because changes from the book are often discussed here, and I thik varys being a vengeful killer is a pretty big one.
toddhunter
Member
He didn't actually kill the sorcerer. In character he might be planning to use him to understand more about magic or gain knowledge for his own needs.
If this was the case though, showing him to Tyrion was somewhat out of character as he gave up a potential advantage.
Boom Boom Pow
Banned
one big change though that they haven't shown is Loras' fighting ability. he was supposed to be 2nd to jaime when it comes to swordfighting.
i mean, he killed what, 3 knights in his rage when Renly died?
i mean, he killed what, 3 knights in his rage when Renly died?
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
This details the for and against the theory
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Loras_Tyrell/Theories
Cpt.Underpants
Member
They were likely caught off guard
bengraven
Member
Um, so the show is having Sansa marry Loras...but he's a Kingsguard. We all know that Kingsguard can't marry, obviously, but do non-readers?
It already mentioned a few episodes ago that Kingsguard can't marry, I wonder if anyone is going "hey, didn't Tyrion tell his dad that Jaime can't marry...".
It already mentioned a few episodes ago that Kingsguard can't marry, I wonder if anyone is going "hey, didn't Tyrion tell his dad that Jaime can't marry...".
Answer is simple really. He's not a kingsguard.
toddhunter
Member
He becomes kingsguard later, in part to actually avoid the prospect of an arranged marriage.
Dumbing down the Targaryen tree for the viewers convenience I am guessing. Not that it matters.
Actually, got to thinking, that makes current Targaryens even less removed from the Baratheons, unless they pushed back Rhaelle as well.
Never mind the implied relationship between him and Oberyn.
He cut down two of the Rainbow Guards who had been charged with protecting Renly when he died. Seem to me they didn't fight back.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
They got rid of Willas?
bengraven
Member
Yeah, they tell Sansa she can marry Loras instead.
That's right, I swore he became a Kingsguard to replace the Hound right after the engagement of his sister was announced.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
Not on the show he didn't.
This is a big reason as to why I think it's more likely that Loras isn't injured as badly as Cersei thinks.
TWOW spoiler
Coupled with Kevan saying Loras was searching Dragonstone despite him supposedly being seriously injured
TWOW spoiler
According to The Winds of Winter, Waters has apparently established himself as a pirate chief in the Stepstones off of Dorne. If Waters and Loras were conspiring, this would allow Waters to harass the forces of House Martell, the longtime enemies of House Tyrell.
Coupled with Kevan saying Loras was searching Dragonstone despite him supposedly being seriously injured
bengraven
Member
I guess not.
Didn't he say the only thing he wanted from Joffrey is for him to forgive his sister or to marry his sister?
Fuck, I never re-watched Season 2.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
In the book, after the battle of Blackwater in the throne room, Loras offers Joffrey his sister Margaery's hand, and also asks to be part of his Kingsguard (since Mandon Moore died and there's a vacant post). Joffrey accepts.
In the show, he only offers Margaery's hand. I found that strange initially, but now I think it was intentional, cause since there's no Willas they can play around with the bogus marriage proposal. When Sansa marries Tyrion, they can have Loras join the Kingsguard after.
In the show, he only offers Margaery's hand. I found that strange initially, but now I think it was intentional, cause since there's no Willas they can play around with the bogus marriage proposal. When Sansa marries Tyrion, they can have Loras join the Kingsguard after.
Steelyuhas
Member
Yeah, the Loras marrying subplot was one that a lot of people called prior to the season considering that he didn't ask to be in the Kingsguard after Blackwater.
It's assumed it will play out like this:
-Tyrell's start the planning to marry Sansa to Loras
-Tywin finds out, and has the King name Loras to the Kingsguard so he can't marry Sansa
-Marries Tyrion to Sansa instead
A small and nice change IMO. Doesn't try to introduce a character that to this point in the books hasn't appeared and makes realistic use of character that's already established in the show. It also adds a little subplot for Tywin, and a special wrinkle for book readers because he'll essential do the same thing to the Tyrell's that the Mad King did to him when he named Jaime to the Kingsguard.
Still, the rage about it in WiC's Twitter recap of the episode was hilarious. People acting like cutting Willas was the most egregious action ever.
It's assumed it will play out like this:
-Tyrell's start the planning to marry Sansa to Loras
-Tywin finds out, and has the King name Loras to the Kingsguard so he can't marry Sansa
-Marries Tyrion to Sansa instead
A small and nice change IMO. Doesn't try to introduce a character that to this point in the books hasn't appeared and makes realistic use of character that's already established in the show. It also adds a little subplot for Tywin, and a special wrinkle for book readers because he'll essential do the same thing to the Tyrell's that the Mad King did to him when he named Jaime to the Kingsguard.
Still, the rage about it in WiC's Twitter recap of the episode was hilarious. People acting like cutting Willas was the most egregious action ever.
I loved seeing people complain about the significance of Willas being who Sansa is proposed to, as if that significance is lost if Loras is the one Sansa is proposed to. Book purism at its finest.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
The whole point of the Willas union was that Sansa would be safe in Highgarden and The Tyrell's were mainly doing it to plot and get a potential Stark heir (if Robb dies) married to the heir of their family. Besides being a power play it would piss the Lannisters off. The other thing is that Willas might have been loving to Sansa, while we know Loras has no interest towards her. Has it ever been said Loras is the heir of Highgarden on the show either? Logic would dictate it would be dumb as fuck for the Tyrell's to bring both children to Kings Landing. There is a reason Willas was left in Highgarden, and it isn't because he is a cripple.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I never even caught that he wasn't in the Kingsguard in the show. Am I imagining all of those lines about Loras protecting Margarey? They really do run together between the book/show since I'm concurrently reading ASOS with the show.
I'm not surprised they rejiggered that plot and I agree with it. The single biggest problem in adapting ASOIAF to the screen is managing loads and loads of characters.
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