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A Song of Ice and Fire -- **Unmarked Spoilers For All Books including ADWD**

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Reyne

Member
I haven't read the Dunk and Egg stories, but why do people think Bloodraven is evil? It doesn't sound like he was all that evil, people just hated him due to the kinslaying stigma.

"How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have, the riddle goes. A thousand eyes, and one." Is a reference to Bloodravens extensive spy network. People had good reason to be afraid of such a person with spies in every corner, just like people are afraid of Varys, calling him a spider, evil etc.
Moreover, because of this, people thought Bloodraven was sorcerer, which isn't too far from the truth if you consider that he was a greenseer, the three-eyed crow. His network of spies went beyond that of just people.
Also, he was an albino with red eyes and a wine-stained birthmark that looked like a raven. People would have thought him evil for no other reason than his appearance.
prz4tOk.jpg
 

Apath

Member
Garlan was also the only one to praise Tyrion for his role in the Battle at Blackwater Bay and disliked how Joffrey treated the book Tyrion gave him for his wedding gift.

He also told Joffrey to his face that dumping wine on Tyrion's head was ill-done, IIRC.
 
Garlan was also the only one to praise Tyrion for his role in the Battle at Blackwater Bay and disliked how Joffrey treated the book Tyrion gave him for his wedding gift.
He was just fanning the fires because he was in on rhe conspiracy to frame Tyrion for Joffrey's murder.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Maybe being a cripple has something to do with it. Though I imagine there must be quite a few men who suffered crippling war wounds and are still easy to marry, so I dunno... I found that strange too. Maybe they were just waiting for the right bride?
Someone else did bring up another good point about the other Great House Heirs. At first, I was thinking that most of them are too young (e.g. Robb was 15, Joffrey was 13) or the title was questionable (House Lannister, House Greyjoy), but then the same question comes up with Edmure, and there isn't anything wrong with him.
 
Someone else did bring up another good point about the other Great House Heirs. At first, I was thinking that most of them are too young (e.g. Robb was 15, Joffrey was 13) or the title was questionable (House Lannister, House Greyjoy), but then the same question comes up with Edmure, and there isn't anything wrong with him.

Well there was that song about the floppy fish.
 

Joni

Member
Someone else did bring up another good point about the other Great House Heirs. At first, I was thinking that most of them are too young (e.g. Robb was 15, Joffrey was 13) or the title was questionable (House Lannister, House Greyjoy), but then the same question comes up with Edmure, and there isn't anything wrong with him.
Hoster Tully might have been waiting for Walder Frey to die. Walder was quite bullish about marrying one of his daughters to different lords, and the heir of his liege lord would be a good choice for one of Walder's daughters. Either Hoster wanted to avoid this, or he wanted to see the power struggle Walder's death would cause to see which daughter is the highest placed.
 
Bran is not staying in a tree. From his viewpoint and the way George had written, he's going to break fantasy tradition (as Martin usually does). He won't want to stay and will gain enough knowledge before leaving but it won't go smoothly. I'm sure something bad will happen once he makes that decision. It might have been his destiny to stay there but the way Bran is, he's going to want to go back home or see his family again or battle in his own way.
 

Wh0 N0se

Member
try to track down the Dunk and Egg stories, get disappointed they aren't readily available

I haven't read them yet because of this, I would like them all in one volume, any news on him finishing the last one or is it finished and they're waiting for others to put it in with?
 

Reyne

Member
Wait what

I only saw a Theon and Arianne one. What are the other four? Where are they? ME WANT NAO

I am pretty sure Theon and Arianne are the only ones that has been put up in their entirety on GRRM website, though Martin have done public readings on Tyrion, Victarion, Barristan and another Arianne chapter for which there are transcripts and synopses of varying degrees.
 

Dysun

Member
Theon I and Arianne I are out

Barristan I, II
Arianne II
Tyrion I
Victarion I

Have detailed summaries, they were read at conventions
 

Bazza

Member
try to track down the Dunk and Egg stories, get disappointed they aren't readily available

Finally found books in stock on Amazon that included the 3 dunk and egg stories, shame they are not available on their own but apparently the other story's in the compilation books are quite good.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I'm trying to keep away from the preview chapters as much as I can.
I used to be like that, but I don't have that kind of willpower anymore. xD GRRM just takes too long... :(

Barristan I, II
Arianne II
Tyrion I
Victarion I

Have detailed summaries, they were read at conventions
Got any link to those summaries or transcripts?

Btw, regarding D&E, if you have trouble obtaining the novellas, the first two have been made into graphic novels, and they're worth the money. Gorgeous art, very faithful adaptations, muuuuch better than the rather, ahem, ghastly art in the official GoT graphic novel (I'm still bummed they haven't kept the D&E artist). I hope The Mystery Knight is turned into a graphic novel soon too. I want to see
Bloodraven
!
 
I think ADWD would have received less mixed reactions from fans if those Tyrion, Victarion, and especially Barriston chapters weren't moved to TWOW. I thought the book was great but it does suffer from having two huge climaxes removed.

Which of course means TWOW will have the most action packed start of the series; two huge battles, the reaction to Kevan's death, the aftermath of Jon's...situation, and Dany burning that khal until he screams/taking his khalasar.
 

Trasher

Member
I think ADWD would have received less mixed reactions from fans if those Tyrion, Victarion, and especially Barriston chapters weren't moved to TWOW. I thought the book was great but it does suffer from having two huge climaxes removed.

Which of course means TWOW will have the most action packed start of the series; two huge battles, the reaction to Kevan's death, the aftermath of Jon's...situation, and Dany burning that khal until he screams/taking his khalasar.

Wait what? How do you know this?
 
Agreed, I mean can you imagined the reactions to A Clash of Kings if it ended right before the Battle of Blackwater?

ADWD was well written, but it lacked a satisfying conclusion. Frankly I'd have cut out all the Quentyn Martell chapters to get the finale in. I mean those chapter were ok, but the plot would not have suffered at all if we just find out later in Barristan's POV that Quentyn got burnt trying to submit one of the dragons.

In earlier books this used to happen. We didn't see Robert getting gored by the boar, we just saw the aftermath.
 
We can thank his editors for that, I would have rather waited another year to get some kind of conclusion.
Agreed. His editor seems like a fan girl to me; she did well with the previous books but this one should have sent some red flags to any editor. Personally I really like the book, it's very good IMO, but could have been much better. Martin has described his personal editing process as cutting fat but leaving the muscle, for instance.
http://grrm.livejournal.com/217066.html

But I'd argue some of the muscle needed to be cut, and an editor is typically the one to do it. The main offender is Dany; I'm pretty much fine with all the other POVs overall. Dany simply has too many chapters. Much of them consist of repetitive events like Lorraq asking Dany to open the gladiator pits, and a cumbersome city legislative process. The editing goal should have been to get Dany to the pit in fewer chapters; that fixes much of the problem. The faster she leaves the faster Barriston takes over; he had some of the absolute best chapters in the book, and has two amazing chapters in TWOW that should be in ADWD. Just eliminating five Dany chapters could have made room for two Barriston chapters, two Victarion, and one more Tyrion chapter - all of which relate to the battle.

Of course an even deeper editing process could cut/consolidate some Jon and Tyrion chapters too, creating more room for the Mereen battle and getting closer to the Winterfell battle. I don't think the Winterfell battle could be added back without greatly increasing the size of the book (winter slows everything down) but adding Theon's TWOW chapters would get us closer to it.
 

lingiii

Banned
I used to be like that, but I don't have that kind of willpower anymore. xD GRRM just takes too long... :(


Got any link to those summaries or transcripts?

Btw, regarding D&E, if you have trouble obtaining the novellas, the first two have been made into graphic novels, and they're worth the money. Gorgeous art, very faithful adaptations, muuuuch better than the rather, ahem, ghastly art in the official GoT graphic novel (I'm still bummed they haven't kept the D&E artist). I hope The Mystery Knight is turned into a graphic novel soon too. I want to see
Bloodraven
!

Is that this: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0785125787/?tag=neogaf0e-20 ?

That's bucks for days! I wonder if they'll reprint this kind of thing now shit's popping off with GoT?
 
I guess go to westeros.org and look up theories. Welcome to The Watch. We are the sword in the darkness of Wildcards, NFL seasons, and conventions

thoughts on ADWD?
This was the book that took me the longest to finish, and that was mostly due to how long things took to get to the point. I felt like it had the most fluff and would probably rate it the lowest of the series. However, I still really enjoy it overall and can't wait for GRRM's next effort.
 

Atruvius

Member
Oh man, I can't wait start my second re-read of the series next week, when I get the English versions. I was reading the first sentence of Game of Thrones when I stopped and decided to order the English ones online. I read the last time a year ago.

The Finnish translation are actually pretty good. The translator offered to translate the books for several Finnish publisher and they all declined. So she decided to start her own publishing company. The first two books have some illustrations made by Petri Hiltunen, which is a nice touch. He also made the covers to Finnish translations.

The cover of Clash of Kings
 

RaidenZR

Member
Agreed. His editor seems like a fan girl to me; she did well with the previous books but this one should have sent some red flags to any editor. Personally I really like the book, it's very good IMO, but could have been much better. Martin has described his personal editing process as cutting fat but leaving the muscle, for instance.
http://grrm.livejournal.com/217066.html

But I'd argue some of the muscle needed to be cut, and an editor is typically the one to do it. The main offender is Dany; I'm pretty much fine with all the other POVs overall. Dany simply has too many chapters. Much of them consist of repetitive events like Lorraq asking Dany to open the gladiator pits, and a cumbersome city legislative process. The editing goal should have been to get Dany to the pit in fewer chapters; that fixes much of the problem. The faster she leaves the faster Barriston takes over; he had some of the absolute best chapters in the book, and has two amazing chapters in TWOW that should be in ADWD. Just eliminating five Dany chapters could have made room for two Barriston chapters, two Victarion, and one more Tyrion chapter - all of which relate to the battle.

Of course an even deeper editing process could cut/consolidate some Jon and Tyrion chapters too, creating more room for the Mereen battle and getting closer to the Winterfell battle. I don't think the Winterfell battle could be added back without greatly increasing the size of the book (winter slows everything down) but adding Theon's TWOW chapters would get us closer to it.

I'm not going to defend the editor of AFFC/ADWD, but I don't think that Anne Groell should be receiving all the blame here (she did edit AFFC too right?). Certainly George is an accomplished writer for various media. He should have outlines or structure somewhere, either in his head, his iphone, or scribbled on cocktail napkins if need be. The fact that AFFC and ADWD are quite complicated to read and to keep track of, yet don't fully provide any real resolutions or sense of strong closure overall by the time you finish them is something he needs to be held responsible more. It is partially editing, but it is partially other things that George has often already copped to in discussing his infamous 'knot'.

I found a lot of the repetition in AFFC and ADWD to be way more excessive than past books. Not just the 'where do whores go' line, but lots of characters seems to have one or two repeated thoughts that pop up so frequently, so the device wears incredibly thin.

I think we have to see some major ends to a few of the big, lingering threads in the first half of the next book. I don't see how he can continue the story into it's larger conclusion if he doesn't get a move on in this regard. In that recent interview with Bryan Cogman on WiC.net about the show he said George has a clear vision for the rest of the story. That could be fluffy talk but I'd like to think it's the truth. Although, I'm not going to act surprised when he's on his AWOW press tour and starts dropping word of an 8th or 9th book.
 
I've started the Boiled Leather combined Feast/Dance and it's already so much better. The Ironborn/Dorne/Brienne chapters are still boring and what's worse is I know they're nigh-on worthless in terms of payoff, but now they're broken up with Tyrion/Dany/Sam/Cersei chapters, which are pretty darn good.
 

lingiii

Banned
I've started the Boiled Leather combined Feast/Dance and it's already so much better. The Ironborn/Dorne/Brienne chapters are still boring and what's worse is I know they're nigh-on worthless in terms of payoff, but now they're broken up with Tyrion/Dany/Sam/Cersei chapters, which are pretty darn good.

What is this? Some kind of fan super-edit to mesh the two books together?
 

lingiii

Banned
show day! a) foreign Jeyne Westerling continues to babe it up. A+. b) I was trying to explain about the Boltons to a friend who was confused about Harrenhal, and it occurred to me I don't quite have that timeline straight. Was Bolton still Robb's man (or at least playing so) when he held Harrenhal? Was his betrayal revealed at the Red Wedding? Because I remember he had a hand in it, so Robb must have trusted him there? also did Ramsay sack Winterfell on Roose's orders, or did Roose just roll with that once it happened?

Anyway I like Robb going to Frey for reinforcements to strike The Rock. Gunna make him getting iced an even bigger bummer for anyone not expecting the Red Wedding, cut down right on the eve of beginning a clever and righteous campaign against the Lannister home.
 

Yagharek

Member
Is there an ETA on Winds of Winter?

Do preview chapters typically end up identical in the final release? (ie did this happen with any of the other books?)

A simple y/n would suffice. Ive just finished ADWD and am one week into the long, long wait.
 
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