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"A Violent Response To Trump Is As Logical As Any" -huffingtonpost

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Sorry Liberals, A Violent Response To Trump Is As Logical As Any

The rise of Donald Trump has exposed the frightening underbelly of America’s foulest tendencies. Our racism, nativism, xenophobia, misogyny, Islamophobia, ableism, and propensity toward authoritarianism have been laid bare. Reactions from those who stand opposed to these manifestations of oppression have varied from calm condemnation and routine peaceful protests, to blockades of roads and borderline riotous outbursts, including sporadic violence in various cities.

This isn’t a coincidence.

There are so many examples of Trump inciting violence the New York Times put together this video documenting some of them. A powerful video juxtaposing his longing for the violence against protestors from the “good ol’ days” with images from the Civil Rights Era recently went viral. There’s been an upswing in anti-Muslim hate crimes that correlates with his candidacy—including several offenders who cite him as their inspiration. Another of his supporters beat an unhoused Latino man. Yet another sucker punched a demonstrator at a rally and then, more alarmingly, went on to say, “The next time we see him, we might have to kill him.” Trump has not just flagrantly violated the typical boundaries of political discourse, his candidacy is linked to multiple instances of violence. It shouldn’t be a surprise that opposition to him has responded in kind. Yet, a lot of people seem shocked and appalled at this perfectly logical reaction. In the face of media, politicians, and GOP primary voters normalizing Trump as a presidential candidate—whatever your personal beliefs regarding violent resistance—there’s an inherent value in forestalling Trump’s normalization. Violent resistance accomplishes this. In spite of this, such resistance is apparently more offensive and unacceptable to societal norms and liberal sensibilities than the nastiness being resisted in the first place.

As a result, a litany of think-pieces and condemnations from liberal media and politicians are making their rounds to make it clear how unacceptable and counterproductive any violence or rioting is, urging people to “listen to the other side,” and to use “legitimate means“ to fight Trump’s rise—ignoring the possibility of fascism in the US rising with it. Those who stray from this nonviolent narrative, like Emmet Rensin, an editor at Vox who tweeted that people should riot when Trump comes to town, face swift and punitive redress, urging them to fall back in line. Amidst the hot takes and denunciations from liberals, they all seem to miss a few key points. First, they misplace the blame. Second, they misunderstand the desired outcome from violent resistance and those protesting Trump in general. And third, they ignore the history of successful violent insurrection in the US, instead favoring the elementary school version of history in which nonviolence is the only means of struggle that’s ever achieved a thing.

Let’s go point by point.

Point one. These denunciations of violence from anti-Trump protestors rest on the misguided view that the divide Trump’s exposed is a typical political disagreement between partisans, and should be handled as such. This couldn’t be further from the truth. Trump might not be a fascist in the 20th century European sense of the term—though many of his supporters are—but he might represent its 21st century US version. There’s no doubt he’s expanded the Overton Window to include rhetoric previously well outside its bounds. His calls for a “deportation force“ to expel 11+ million people from the country, his claims that most Mexican immigrants are rapists and criminals, his calls to keep databases of Muslims and to enact a total ban on Muslims entering the country, his rampant sexism, his mocking people with disabilities, and his propensity for lying have brought the already pathetic state of US political discourse to astoundingly precarious lows. Treating this like politics as usual allows it to become politics as usual, and those who do so risk complicity ushering in a new era of fascist politics in the United States. Violence that takes place at Trump rallies—in support or opposition—is a reaction to the tone he’s set, and the blame for it should land primarily on his shoulders. As awful as Ted Cruz is, and he’s genuinely terrible, like there’s no way to overemphasize how terribly awful Ted Cruz is—politically, personally, as a colleague, a roommate, a presidential candidate... I mean he’s really the worst. But if he was the presumptive GOP nominee things wouldn’t look this way.

Point two. Politicians and liberal pundits seem to believe the principal goal for everyone resisting Trump is to halt his entry into the Oval Office. This, by default, means assisting Hillary Clinton’s entry. That’s a fine goal for some people to embrace, and in the heat of an election year perhaps partisans and pundits can be forgiven for having such a narrow view, but there’s more to this fight than helping get another Clinton into the White House. And for some, posing that as the goal is a good way to motivate them to stay home. My biggest issue with looking at the Trump problem as an exclusively political issue, though, is that if he loses this fall everyone will go back to ignoring the things that got us here in the first place. No matter who wins in November, the forces underpinning his rise will remain.

Trump doesn’t exist in a vacuum. He’s the natural consequence of, among other things, Republicans longstanding embrace of racism, perpetual attacks on the credibility of media, scientists, and the federal government, defunding public education, railing against so-called PC culture, and using immigrants as scape goats. Defeating these systems of power and their underlying apparatuses—think tanks, conservative radio, Fox News, the Tea Party, etc.—is a much longer-term and more demanding task than assuring Trump isn’t elected. Taking on the attitudes that drive them is even more difficult. Assuming anti-Trump protests should be strictly focused on electoral politics and not these broader goals would be a detrimental oversight. Understanding European anti-fascists use of violent tactics to shut down large rallies from White Supremacists can be illustrative here. Because while Trump isn’t leading full bore White Supremacist rallies, there is value in making it clear that even his fascism-lite has no place in civilized society. And whether his candidacy represents how fascism comes to the US or he’s simply opened the door to it is immaterial. Either should be stopped post haste.

Point three. Violent resistance matters. Riots can lead to major change (*note the irony of that hyperlink going to a Vox article). It’s not liberal politicians or masses that historians identify as the spark underlying the modern movement for LGBTQ equality. Nor was it a think piece from some smarmy liberal writer. It was the people who took to the streets during the Stonewall Uprising. It was the Watts Rebellion, not the Watts Battle of Ideas, that exposed the enduring systemic neglect, poverty, inequality, and racism faced by that community. Similarly, it was the LA Uprising, not the LA Protests, that led to significant changes in the Los Angeles Police Department. More recently, the Ferguson and Baltimore Uprisings both helped prompt the Justice Department to investigate their corrupt police forces. And since we’re talking about fascism, it’s worth remembering that it wasn’t the election of a moderate centrist (hello, Hillary) or a sanguine protest that stopped its ascent in Europe. It was, primarily, the Russian military, and to a lesser extent the US military; neither of which practiced nonviolence if memory serves.

Last, I want to briefly note the problematic nature of people with privilege condemning violent resistance to Trump as an absolute moral failing, or denying its logic. Whether you would personally engage in violent conduct matters little to your ability to understand where it comes from. Some people have the privilege to consider the implications of Trump’s rise in the abstract and negotiate which means are necessary. That’s not true for everyone. And when those who hold that privilege dismiss the potential validity or logic of violent resistance, it’s effectively an effort to dictate the rules under which oppressed peoples respond to existential threats, and to silence forms of resistance disagreeable to privileged sensibilities. Don’t be that liberal.

Source:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jesse-benn/sorry-liberals-a-violent-_b_10316186.html

An interesting take on the subject.
I personally object to violence in this whole thing, but the article's got some interesting points.
What does GAF think?
 

FStubbs

Member
The Trump side is likely to have more and better weapons. If you want to go to war with them, you're probably going to lose.
 

stufte

Member
the problematic nature of people with privilege condemning violent resistance to Trump as an absolute moral failing

Well, violence with an absence of other tactics (like using your fucking words) is pretty morally wrong.
 
I don't agree at all. How can you claim moral high ground when you're arguement is that it's ok to be violent if the opposing side is inciting violence? Doing this achieves nothing, and only paints liberals in a bad light and gives Trump ammunition
 
It should be easy enough to beat Trump with arguments. What the fuck could be achieved by sinking to his level, other than legitimizing him in the eyes of his supporters?
 
its hard to peacefully deal with fascism unfortunately. It should never have gotten to this point where a proto-fascist like Drumpf is a candidate for president.
 
Sigh.

If Trump actually wins the election then let's talk about political violence. Right now he's just a blowhard with a big microphone and a twitter account.
 
its hard to peacefully deal with fascism unfortunately. It should never have gotten to this point where a proto-fascist like Drumpf is a candidate for president.

Violence will only reinforce and strengthen the fears of the pro trump supporters though, which only reinforces authoritarian tendencies.
 

antonz

Member
Holy shit this article is garbage. Trying to justify violence by comparing today to the US and Russia fighting Nazi Germany..
 
Violence will only reinforce and strengthen the fears of the pro trump supporters though, which only reinforces authoritarian tendencies.

not saying i agree with it but it's generally how it ends up turning out regardless due to the nature of what fascism actually is and it's roots in white supremacy and racism.
 

sk3

Banned
Sigh.

If Trump actually wins the election then let's talk about political violence. Right now he's just a blowhard with a big microphone and a twitter account.
And even if he is elected, the likelyhood of any severe policies being enacted is very very low.

This is entirely hubris, politics, and FUD. Justifying violence in this situation is an abomination and I cannot believe how many "journalists" are justifying it. Psychopaths.
 
Violence will only reinforce and strengthen the fears of the pro trump supporters though, which only reinforces authoritarian tendencies.

It sucks though, because Trump's MO is to stir shit up and then go "See! I told you!" when shit happens.

It's like dealing with a playground bully or the tough guy at a bar - every bone in your body wants to act out, but in reality you have to be the better person and not risk playing into that person's plan.

Doesn't mean it's not a logical or understandable response, however. Trump is making a lot of people very angry.

But it's not justifiable when violence occurs as a result of Trump's bullying.

People have to be better than that, because Trump wants them to be lesser.
 
It sucks though, because Trump's MO is to stir shit up and then go "See! I told you!" when shit happens.

It's like dealing with a playground bully or the tough guy at a bar - every bone in your body wants to act out, but in reality you have to be the better person and not risk playing into that person's plan.

Doesn't mean it's not a logical or understandable response, however. Trump is making a lot of people very angry.

But it's not justifiable when violence occurs as a result of Trump's bullying.

People have to be better than that, because Trump wants them to be lesser.
Which is exactly what I'm saying
 

Veelk

Banned
In this case, application of violence is like trying to burn fire.

I mean, lets say you go beat the shit out of a bunch of trump supporters. Okay. What has been accomplished by this? Have you convinced the opposition to not vote for trump? No. Have you convinced others to vote for Hillary? Unlikely. And what else matters in terms of a voting booth? I mean, that's what it comes down to, whether people sign a piece of paper one way or another. Violence doesn't help with that.

All it does is provide support to Trump's supporter's methodology, if not their particular targets. That we should inflict violence on those who disagree.

If you are being attacked by a Trump supporter physically, by all means, defend yourself as you must, but you're not going to help anyone by being the aggressor.
 

Mecha

Member
This is more about fascists in general than just Trump:

Fascists have it pretty good with liberals. They can basically say whatever they want and there will always be a group of liberals that will support their "freedom" of saying it. Then when debating and discussions with the fascists doesn't stop the wave of fascism and they will start gaining positions in the government and have even greater power. Eventually the fascists will have to be fought, but it's ideally when they aren't in control of the state.
 
Violence is not the answer. And there is no need for it.

Just vote for Clinton and Trump goes back to being a Reality TV personality.
 
What the fuck could be achieved by sinking to his level, other than legitimizing him in the eyes of his supporters?

I've personally made this argument before, but I think it falls flat. Trump's rhetoric has already been legitimized in the eyes of Trump's supporters––they wouldn't be supporting him otherwise.

Besides, why should it matter what they think?
 
Justifying violence against people because of political differences is disgusting. You only vindicate Trump supports when you attack them with violence.
 

Klotera

Member
Sigh.

If Trump actually wins the election then let's talk about political violence. Right now he's just a blowhard with a big microphone and a twitter account.

Exactly. People justifying the violence are talking like they're rising up against a dictator when he hasn't even won office. He may lose big time for all we know.

They say voting isn't enough, which is complete crap. If he loses, then voting absolutely was enough.
 
If progressives want to continue to legitimize Trump so they can play pretend that their vapid rhetoric and elitism makes them some kind of a freedom fighter they can go right ahead. They really seem to want to fight a real fascist and if they keep this up they will get their wish.
I've personally made this argument before, but I think it falls flat. Trump's rhetoric has already been legitimized in the eyes of Trump's supporters––they wouldn't be supporting him otherwise.

Besides, why should it matter what they think?
Because they can vote.
 

ANDS

Banned
I don't agree at all. How can you claim moral high ground when you're arguement is that it's ok to be violent if the opposing side is inciting violence? Doing this achieves nothing, and only paints liberals in a bad light and gives Trump ammunition

I think the argument some are making is that there isn't any. Essentially you cannot both say "Trump is a dangerous demagogue. . ." in one breath and then abhor the response to that in the other.
 
Yes because what better way to espouse the positives of democracy than to go and physically assault people exorcising their right to engage in the democratic process.

Disgusting.

I've personally made this argument before, but I think it falls flat. Trump's rhetoric has already been legitimized in the eyes of Trump's supporters––they wouldn't be supporting him otherwise.

Besides, why should it matter what they think?

And this is why things will never get better.

You have to be able to understand people with bad viewpoints if you want them to empathize and change them.

Jesus.
 
I don't think physical violence against trump is the right strategy because you don't need it to not get him elected. Voting and normal protesting works. On this stage it serves more as a vice.
 

antonz

Member
When a chunk of your article is based on in Europe they handle things XYZ then you aren't off to a good start. I have absolutely no problem with protests, marches etc. That is a fantastic display of our rights as a citizen to make our voices heard.

As it is there is zero chance Trump gets the Presidency. He would need to do better than Romney with Hispanics etc. There is no way Trump is getting 30%+ of the Hispanic vote. There is no way he is going to make the needed gains in the white and Black Vote. The Election was over months ago but now is the divide and antagonize period where people pretend Trump still has a chance and how much damage could be done etc. all while saying write checks to us so we can defeat trump etc
 

Klotera

Member
people of privilege who want the urban poor to do their violent, counterproductive bidding

Yep, I'm guessing he isn't ready to get his own hands dirty.

Let others do the dirty work while you get to share the (perceived) glory for supporting it from behind a laptop.
 
When a chunk of your article is based on in Europe they handle things XYZ then you aren't off to a good start. I have absolutely no problem with protests, marches etc. That is a fantastic display of our rights as a citizen to make our voices heard.

As it is there is zero chance Trump gets the Presidency. He would need to do better than Romney with Hispanics etc. There is no way Trump is getting 30%+ of the Hispanic vote. There is no way he is going to make the needed gains in the white and Black Vote. The Election was over months ago but now is the divide and antagonize period where people pretend Trump still has a chance and how much damage could be done etc. all while saying write checks to us so we can defeat trump etc
I don't think the continent responsible for colonialism, slavery, two world wars and the holocaust really has the right to lecture us just because they have created a fragile, undemocratic and oh-so-progressive Frankenstein of a bureaucracy subsidized by NATO.

Do you?
 
Even if Trump wins that doesn't excuse political violence.

If he wins it's because more people voted for him. People should have gotten off their asses and voted instead of starting riots because a guy they didn't like got more votes.

That's democracy. There is no justification for political violence.
 

low-G

Member
This is more about fascists in general than just Trump:

Fascists have it pretty good with liberals. They can basically say whatever they want and there will always be a group of liberals that will support their "freedom" of saying it. Then when debating and discussions with the fascists doesn't stop the wave of fascism and they will start gaining positions in the government and have even greater power. Eventually the fascists will have to be fought, but it's ideally when they aren't in control of the state.

Exactly. I don't think we're realistically at that point yet, but liberals refusal to get angry and shout and occasionally get violent is pretty much 100% of conservative gains over the last 40 years...
 
Exactly. I don't think we're realistically at that point yet, but liberals refusal to get angry and shout and occasionally get violent is pretty much 100% of conservative gains over the last 40 years...

No I'm pretty sure liberals not going out to vote is the cause of that.
 

Riposte

Member
And even if he is elected, the likelyhood of any severe policies being enacted is very very low.

This is entirely hubris, politics, and FUD. Justifying violence in this situation is an abomination and I cannot believe how many "journalists" are justifying it. Psychopaths.

Trump would likely be one of the worst presidents in the last hundred years on any or all metrics, but there isn't any solid evidence to say he could possibly or even wants to create a fascist regime. Many people have no concept of history beyond what they absorb from osmosis, mainly retaining what is convenient to them.

The truth is Trump isn't all too different from his modern day right-wing candidate peers, just with a sense of populist bravado that's mainly superficial (in a salesmen sort of way) even when they are reflected in his few proposed policies (e.g., they all want to crack down on illegal immigration, but he's going to build a WALL) - in fact there's a lot to say from a liberal perspective Trump is measurably better than the 2nd place nominee Ted Cruz on many issues. The insults that separate Trump from other republicans are mainly character-based, because all of the stupid shit he says, but where we can even argue whether he's most racist, misogynistic, or homophobic among his peers.

So, why not call all the republican candidates fascists (assuming people don't already do this)? Sounds like it would be pretty useful in any future presidential race. Why not commit continual political violence against the whole republican party? Whenever there is an anti-abortion bill, an anti-immigration bill, anti-healthcare bill, an anti-transsexual bill, anti-voter bill etc, all of which is happening with or without Trump, right now and in the future. If violence is the answer (as history apparently shows us) why only commit it against lone Trump supporters? Or is the case that only Trump supporters have been successfully dehumanized?
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Where can I bet on the Trump forces to win the street battles against "critical media studies" phD candidates like this guy?
 
👌👌👌👌👌

For real, liberals. Stop being liberals - arm yourselves and become radicals.


Fucking crazy to see this coming from a mainstream outlet. Are we finally doing away with the myth that historical progress came by asking really nicely?
 
Nope, no way a position like that could backfire spectacularly. If you're swayed by that article, you're an idiot.

Last, I want to briefly note the problematic nature of people with privilege condemning violent resistance to Trump as an absolute moral failing, or denying its logic.

Oh, fuck off. What an obnoxious statement, and in support of political violence no less!
 
👌👌👌👌👌

For real, liberals. Stop being liberals - arm yourselves and become radicals.

Meanwhile on the conservative side
dYwsSRk.jpg
 

Condom

Member
Even if Trump wins that doesn't excuse political violence.

If he wins it's because more people voted for him. People should have gotten off their asses and voted instead of starting riots because a guy they didn't like got more votes.

That's democracy. There is no justification for political violence.

Ok well at least we know not to count on your support once the fascists take over. Future collaborator.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
I like how the supporters of the so-called Peace candidate Bernie are so ripe to turn to violence themselves.

Do as I say not as a I do?

Besides, it's all FUD at this point with Trump.. he's going to pivot to the center during the main election.. and the likelyhood of his shit like the wall or banning muslims won't ever pass anyhow.

I'm not a Trump fan, but I don't think him being president would destroy this country at all.. most likely he'd be ineffective and get nothing done of note.
 
Ok well at least we know not to count on your support once the fascists take over. Future collaborator.

It's funny, really, since as has been pointed out, other than his rhetoric, Trump's actual proposed policies really aren't that right ring compared to some of his peers.

Not to mention implementation of, well, pretty much all of them is impossible.

There will never be a border wall. There will never be mass deportation of Muslims. There aren't going to be murder squads patrolling the streets for Juden.

Donald Trump isn't a fascist, he's just a right wing loon praying on a populist agenda. His policies aren't implementable, his idiocy will be brought into check because that's what our system of government functions on, checks and balances.

People screaming about him being a fascist have bought into his propaganda just as hard as the deluded loons who support him.
 
I don't think violence against Trump supporters will hurt Trump, I'm not sure if it actually helps him, but I'm fairly sure it doesn't hurts him.
 
Even if Trump wins that doesn't excuse political violence.

If he wins it's because more people voted for him. People should have gotten off their asses and voted instead of starting riots because a guy they didn't like got more votes.

That's democracy. There is no justification for political violence.

Fuck. That.

If Trump wins, it means white people voted him in. Dead ass, that's his only demo right now. It will be done with boots on minorities' necks.

And that boot will stay on. it did with Reagan, it'll be worse now.


And I hope folks understand what the language of the unheard is.
 
Fuck. That.

If Trump wins, it means white people voted him in. Dead ass, that's his only demo right now. It will be done with boots on minorities' necks.

And that boot will stay on. it did with Reagan, it'll be worse now.


And I hope folks understand what the language of the unheard is.

Then fucking get out and vote. Rally people. Get people to go. It's not hard to make yourself heard and get the votes to oust this dude if he's only got one demographic to lean on.

This is democracy.
 
Then fucking get out and vote. Rally people. Get people to go. It's not hard to make yourself heard and get the votes to oust this dude if he's only got one demographic to lean on.

This is democracy.

A democracy historically working against and disenfranchising the same people Trump is rallying against.


Also, vote or no vote, this election is showing a lot about the Two Americas. And the country needs to have a long discussion on WHY Trump gained so much momentum, despite the red flags at POCs, women, etc.
 

Ashby

Member
I'll be honest, whenever I read something like this from a male liberal (knew it was a man before I looked at the byline) I just assume the writer is insecure in their masculinity and wishes to wrestle some of that sweet, sweet machismo away from male conservatives.
 
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