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[Heavy_D206]

I saw Trump protesters burning the American flag while rioting.

That will definitely sway people over to their side right?

 

[sphagnum]

I wonder if they have heard of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Nick Cohen remembers it fondly:

We're all aware of the history of the USSR and you make the mistake of assuming that we all hold allegiance to it. Rather off topic though.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

It's not just about the election. This is the issue. Liberals are blind to politics outside of the voting booth. Fascism and white supremacy are on the rise in the US. Trump is a major part of that. Violent resistance is the only way to stop fascists.

Specifically what would you suggest at this point in time other than voting and encouraging like-minded individuals to do the same?

 

[Coffee Dog]

Idk wwii did a good job of that

Considering we're still dealing with the same shit about 80 years later, I'd beg to differ.

 

[Mecha]

I wonder if they have heard of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Nick Cohen remembers it fondly:

Okay? There were also many anti-fascist efforts across Europe during that time. I don't have to agree with focusing on the government rather than the Nazi's.

 

[Guileless]

The Civil Rights Movement in the 60s was bloody. Extremely so. And all that did was make it dormant and covert rather than overt. What makes you think violence would permanently solve the problem now when it didn't back then?

The images of police violence in the South against peaceful protestors are widely credited with increased support for civil rights. LBJ signed the Voting Rights Ac in 1965. Right after he had just won 44 states and 60% of the popular vote. And then he also signed the Great Society legislation. I think I see a pattern here.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Considering we're still dealing with the same shit about 80 years later, I'd beg to differ.

Not nearly on the same level of the 30s and 40s.

 

[Chairman Yang]

It's not just about the election. This is the issue. Liberals are blind to politics outside of the voting booth. Fascism and white supremacy are on the rise in the US. Trump is a major part of that. Violent resistance is the only way to stop fascists.

Once violence is legitimized and widespread, America will literally be on the path to a totalitarian government taking power. Maybe fascist, maybe left-wing, maybe something else entirely. But I guarantee you won't like it.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Something can be moral or immoral but be the right or wrong thing to do tactically (probably should have said that instead of strategy) at a given time. I don't think it's ever wrong, morally, for oppressed or exploited people to overthrow their rulers or else I wouldn't be a communist. But it may not be the wisest thing to do.

It's morally wrong to shoot a Trump supporter in the face in the name of fighting white supremacy or racism or anything the fuck else.

We are NO WHERE near the point that violence should be considered due to recent political developments.

I'm saying it's both morally wrong and unwise as a response to right now.

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

The images of police violence in the South against peaceful protestors are widely credited with increased support for civil rights. LBJ signed the Voting Rights Ac in 1965. Right after he had just won 44 states and 60% of the popular vote. And then he also signed the Great Society legislation. I think I see a pattern here.

Yeah; violence against people that support something makes their cause more sympathetic. But sure, go ahead. Keep beating up Trump supporters. That will totally make Trump weaker.

 

[King Tubby]

Halting the spread of white supremacy isn't logical?!?!

You mean this in jest, but I don't disagree with it. There are times when violence is necessary to protect freedom.

Sure, I won't argue that. But this is certainly not one of those times.

Many "voted" into office across our great country, in the name of Voter Fraud, want to further disenfranchise minority groups. I have little faith.

Is violence appropriate against those candidates and their supporters as well?

It's not just about the election. This is the issue. Liberals are blind to politics outside of the voting booth. Fascism and white supremacy are on the rise in the US. Trump is a major part of that. Violent resistance is the only way to stop fascists.

You know what will do more than violence to stop fascists? Their opponents becoming more politically active.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

The images of police violence in the South against peaceful protestors are widely credited with increased support for civil rights. LBJ signed the Voting Rights Ac in 1965. Right after he had just won 44 states and 60% of the popular vote. And then he also signed the Great Society legislation. I think I see a pattern here.

This. You never do what you adversary expects/wants you to do...

My parents marched in the civil rights movement and they were told flat out they would be spat upon, punched, have rocks thrown but to not respond violently as that just makes them look like the bad guys and the entire point of the march was to gain support.

 

[entremet]

That's one horrible article.

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

The images of police violence in the South against peaceful protestors are widely credited with increased support for civil rights. LBJ signed the Voting Rights Ac in 1965. Right after he had just won 44 states and 60% of the popular vote. And then he also signed the Great Society legislation. I think I see a pattern here.

You realize you are making the exact opposite of the argument that you think you are making? Violence against supporters of cause (X) actually increases the sympathy of cause (X).

So widely-covered violence against Trump supporters will lead to.............. what do you think?

 

[sphagnum]

Sure, I won't argue that. But this is certainly not one of those times.

I don't disagree. I think some people are confusing what I was saying with what the article was saying.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

That's one horrible article.

I really do agree. Fanning the fucking flames for some god damn ad clicks.

 

[Mr. X]

Sure, I won't argue that. But this is certainly not one of those times.



Is violence appropriate against those candidates and their supporters as well?



You know what will do more than violence to stop fascists? Their opponents becoming more politically active.

Riots are understandable when it affects your life and liberty.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Nah I know that you're talking about riots. I'm wondering about specifics.

Want some clarification? I'm saying if riots happen because Trump gets elected, I wouldn't be surprised.

It would be a sign that minorities don't matter to the vast majority of the US. And I don't think people would take that very well.


And I think the fact that Trump has gotten this far is a sign that there is a streak of hate in this country that needs to be confronted. Or disenfranchised, which ever one works out.



I want to believe in non-violent protest fixing everything. Or just taking institutional power. But that implies a conscious that isn't always there. If Trump wins, I don't think it'll be there. Not from a Trump led government.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

1 - Find the addresses of every Trump supporter
2 - Murder them all
3 - Utopia!

The logic is sound.

 

[~Kinggi~]

Meanwhile on the conservative side

its beautiful. Tears of joy etc etc. Amerika is wonder full

 

[Cagey]

Violence is sometimes absolutely nessisary. But anyone thinking that this is one of those times is a fool.

Violence because you disagree with someone's shitty ideology is wrong. Until the point where they g t physical and you need to defend yourself I wouldn't condone violence.




By that logic I can justify some pretty disgusting atrocities against innocent people in the name of stopping white supremacy.

And it wouldn't work.

As an aside I think it's amazing that people now wanna try justifying this type of violence when "their team" carries it out.

The bravado and tough guy BS of articles like this expose the underlying desires among some (mercifully a damn small number) who claim a moral high ground to use the same crass, anti-intellectual base methods of those in the sewer: violence and suppression and aggression and seeking out conflict. Their tactics are just plain more fun than being a good person.

Between this article and various repetitions of the same discussion here with similar language, we're seeing some small circles of the left on the internet believe they have devised a sufficient moral justification to beat some right wing fuckers up while remaining morally better than them.

Cognitive dissonance fueled by moral righteousness.

That white guilt writer giving permission to the Browns and blacks to commit violence.

I read it more as a white liberal writer declaring how he's more liberal than other white liberals, thus implying those less liberals arent as good as he is, because he's staking out a more extreme position.

With some macho "I wish some Trump supporter would try me today" posturing from a damn online writer to boot.

 

[kame-sennin]

Telling already oppressed and politically ignored groups to be calm and vote and "use your words" when his supporters are beating or punching minorities shows how far removed you are from the effects of this.

All that needed to be said.

 

[ANDS]

All that needed to be said.

Really? That's ALL that needs to be said on this issue?

 

[Iorv3th]

It's not just about the election. This is the issue. Liberals are blind to politics outside of the voting booth. Fascism and white supremacy are on the rise in the US. Trump is a major part of that. Violent resistance is the only way to stop fascists.

Pales in comparison to some of my comrades' collections, and I'm getting my first gun and training soon.

You are going to end up dead or in prison. Especially if you carry that gun with you while shoplifting.

 

[norm9]

All that needed to be said.

"He started it" didn't work in kindergarten nor with my parents.

I imagine this asshole writer is drinking a latte nodding his head thinking he's done good. Fuck him.

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

Telling already oppressed and politically ignored groups to be calm and vote and "use your words" when his supporters are beating or punching minorities shows how far removed you are from the effects of this.

No, actually. It doesn't. They are being told this because the reality of the situation is no matter what these oppressed groups feel violence on their part will make things worse for them. It doesn't really matter how hard it is for them. That's the reality. You can be as self righteous as you want but that doesn't change the fact that you are wrong.

You are going to end up dead or in prison. Especially if you carry that gun with you while shoplifting.

I can just picture it; this jackissocool guy is going to pull his new gun at a rally and some fat middle-aged woman is going to take out the gun her husband bought for her and blow his fucking head off while his "comrades" run away.

 

[Ponn]

The argument here is really unpersuasive, and so unpersuasive that it is hard not to think that this is just about people getting caught up in the romance of violent struggle rather than about people taking a careful look at the world and concluding that violence is the way to go here.

Points one and two basically hinge on the question of whether or not violence is actually useful, whether or not its use against Trump is itself dangerous to the republic, etc. There's not much of an argument for this - these points are just "here are some things we should want to make happen, therefore violence". Everyone already agrees that Trump is bad, that Trumpism is bad, and that the conditions that produced Trump are bad. The disagreement is about whether violence is an effective and permissible strategy for opposing these things.

The third point is the only one that actually tries to justify violence as useful, and it is obviously flimsy. Every domestic example given is of a minority acting against a government which is actively oppressing them which they have no other real way to influence, which is just obviously not what we're facing right now in Trump. The other example is World War 2. There's no discussion of why violence worked in these cases. There's no consideration of occasions where violence failed to achieve its goals or even made things worse. There's no attempt to argue that not using violence and simply voting against Trump is not a better idea.

This should be on the next page. These topics always end up with everyone talking over each other and missing the obvious points. There is a time and place for violence, I don't think its something thats completely off the board in every case. You're not going to get alot of results though when the reason for the violence is vague and more about ideals than a specific purpose. Add on to that violence taking place in the political arena where there are already steps in place to fight those ideals you are opposing then it becomes incredibly muddled. The more these riots go on the more it is just going look like anarchists fighting the political system all together, which i'm already figuring is at the heart of it. People on these boards i'm betting understand why people are rioting and feel the way they do. Where the disconnect is if you believe in the political system in place and you believe in Clinton to win or not.

 

[Dsyndrome]

What's going on in this thread?

Are people advocating for violence against conservatives?

Welcome to 2016. I fucking hate it.

 

[Calamari41]

Want some clarification? I'm saying if riots happen because Trump gets elected, I wouldn't be surprised.

It would be a sign that minorities don't matter to the vast majority of the US. And I don't think people would take that very well.

I'm glad you clarified, because your original statements made it seem as though you were planning some very specific, targeted actions in the event of a Trump victory.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

So if I have a Trump sticker on my car is it ok to key my car?

If I have a Trump sticker on my laptop is it cool to smash it?

If I'm a republican and go to a Trump rally it's ok to beat me up?

Didn't a guy get punched at a Trump rally cause he was anti-Trump and we were all like "That's horrible, disgusting and wrong!"

The fuck happened?

 

[Alligatorjandro]

How do you get people to stop being racist and all the other things trump is for?

 

[sphagnum]

I can just picture it; this jackissocool guy is going to pull his new gun at a rally and some fat middle-aged woman is going to take out the gun her husband bought for her and blow his fucking head off while his "comrades" run away.

This is kind of a weird thing to post.

 

[ryseing]

You are going to end up dead or in prison. Especially if you carry that gun with you while shoplifting.

Holy shit I remember that thread.

FFS violent revolution is not the answer.

Also, think tanks are not only conservative. They span all ideologies. How are they suddenly on the level of Fox News and the Tea Party.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

So if I have a Trump sticker on my car is it ok to key my car?

If I have a Trump sticker on my laptop is it cool to smash it?

If I'm a republican and go to a Trump rally it's ok to beat me up?

Didn't a guy get punched at a Trump rally cause he was anti-Trump and we were all like "That's horrible, disgusting and wrong!"

The fuck happened?

You would definitely run the risk of ending up in jackissocool's basement.

 

[Ponn]

How do you get people to stop being racist and all the other things trump is for?

Beat the shit out of them? Violence?

 

[SodiumBenzoate]

So if I have a Trump sticker on my car is it ok to key my car?

If I have a Trump sticker on my laptop is it cool to smash it?

If I'm a republican and go to a Trump rally it's ok to beat me up?

Didn't a guy get punched at a Trump rally cause he was anti-Trump and we were all like "That's horrible, disgusting and wrong!"

The fuck happened?

It depends -



Are you making an abstract argument about political resistance? Then violence is fine, according to a large number of users on this forum.

Is it your car getting keyed, or your property getting destroyed? Then no, totally awful.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

How do you get people to stop being racist and all the other things trump is for?

You might as well ask: "How do we get everyone to think the same way?"

 

[Mecha]

Holy shit I remember that thread.

FFS violent revolution is not the answer.

This thread isn't about violent revolution.

 

[kame-sennin]

The images of police violence in the South against peaceful protestors are widely credited with increased support for civil rights. LBJ signed the Voting Rights Ac in 1965. Right after he had just won 44 states and 60% of the popular vote. And then he also signed the Great Society legislation. I think I see a pattern here.

An example of the need for self-defense to enable substantial change in the Deep South took place in early 1965. Black students picketing the local high school were confronted by hostile police and fire trucks with hoses. A car of four Deacons emerged and, in view of the police, calmly loaded their shotguns. The police ordered the fire truck to withdraw. This was the first time in the 20th century, as Lance Hill observes, “an armed black organization had successfully used weapons to defend a lawful protest against an attack by law enforcement.”[4] Hill gives as another example: “In Jonesboro, the Deacons made history when they compelled Louisiana governor John McKeithen to intervene in the city’s civil rights crisis and require a compromise with city leaders — the first capitulation to the civil rights movement by a Deep South governor.”​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacons_for_Defense_and_Justice

Please continue to erase the black people who risked their lives to fight for and defend the civil rights movement from history.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

This thread isn't about violent revolution.

Spoiler

J/K!

 

[Alligatorjandro]

You might as well ask: "How do we get everyone to think the same way?"

So there really isn't a solution to any of those problems.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

An example of the need for self-defense to enable substantial change in the Deep South took place in early 1965. Black students picketing the local high school were confronted by hostile police and fire trucks with hoses. A car of four Deacons emerged and, in view of the police, calmly loaded their shotguns. The police ordered the fire truck to withdraw. This was the first time in the 20th century, as Lance Hill observes, “an armed black organization had successfully used weapons to defend a lawful protest against an attack by law enforcement.”[4] Hill gives as another example: “In Jonesboro, the Deacons made history when they compelled Louisiana governor John McKeithen to intervene in the city’s civil rights crisis and require a compromise with city leaders — the first capitulation to the civil rights movement by a Deep South governor.”​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacons_for_Defense_and_Justice

Please continue to erase the black people who risked their lives to fight for and defend the civil rights movement from history.

Thank goodness somebody brought this up.

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

This is kind of a weird thing to post.

Do you live in an area where people can't have a concealed carry license? Because if so you must not be familiar with the kinds of people that feel the need to carry guns everywhere.

 

[ANDS]

How do you get people to stop being racist and all the other things trump is for?

You really think Trump has crafted a "Let's All Be Racist" platform? It's these "easy to digest" characterizations that has had a hand in creating this situation. You can not continuously bang the drum of racism, fascism and insist Trump is the second-coming of Hitler and turn around and be surprised when people act out this way. You have essentially told these groups of people that a guy that could be the next President of the United States is going to come for you. How are they supposed to react?

 

[orthodoxy1095]

I feel genuinely sorry for you. I really do.

You're talking to someone who literally believes that shoplifting is an ok thing to do. That should tell you enough what kind of lowlifes support violence like this.

He doesn't even deserve your pity.

 

[Mr. X]

No, actually. It doesn't. They are being told this because the reality of the situation is no matter what these oppressed groups feel violence on their part will make things worse for them. It doesn't really matter how hard it is for them. That's the reality. You can be as self righteous as you want but that doesn't change the fact that you are wrong.

I can just picture it; this jackissocool guy is going to pull his new gun at a rally and some fat middle-aged woman is going to take out the gun her husband bought for her and blow his fucking head off while his "comrades" run away.

What is your suggestion to those of us effected by policies and societal norms that keep minorities disadvantaged vs their white male counterparts?

When politicians running for office with our best interest in mind can't get the same amount of money behind them to run and win vs those who don't or want to make it worse, what is your recommendation?

When no one cares about cops harassing individuals for nothing wrong and then run awful photos when they kill somebody with the cop standing in front of an american flag, what is your advice?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

An example of the need for self-defense to enable substantial change in the Deep South took place in early 1965. Black students picketing the local high school were confronted by hostile police and fire trucks with hoses. A car of four Deacons emerged and, in view of the police, calmly loaded their shotguns. The police ordered the fire truck to withdraw. This was the first time in the 20th century, as Lance Hill observes, “an armed black organization had successfully used weapons to defend a lawful protest against an attack by law enforcement.”[4] Hill gives as another example: “In Jonesboro, the Deacons made history when they compelled Louisiana governor John McKeithen to intervene in the city’s civil rights crisis and require a compromise with city leaders — the first capitulation to the civil rights movement by a Deep South governor.”​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacons_for_Defense_and_Justice

Please continue to erase the black people who risked their lives to fight for and defend the civil rights movement from history.

Word.

And as an aside I'd just like to say:

Robert Williams didn't go around shooting motherfuckers just cause they disagreed with him politically. He believed in armed self defense when appropriate. (i.e. when mofo's were coming to start shit.) I read his book and you can't compare where he was as a Black man in American then with where liberals are as a group now. There's no viable comparison.

"I have asserted the right of Negroes to meet the violence of the Ku Klux Klan by armed self-defense — and have acted on it. It has always been an accepted right of Americans, as the history of our Western states proves, that where the law is unable, or unwilling, to enforce order, the citizens can, and must act in self-defense against lawless violence."

So there really isn't a solution to any of those problems.

Welcome to life? I really don't know what to tell you. It's just a limitation of our species I guess. We all have the ability to formulate our own opinions. It's gotten us this far, warts and all. I trust it more than any one man or group of men trying to regulate it that's for God damned sure...

 

[Mecha]

You really think Trump has crafted a "Let's All Be Racist" platform? It's these "easy to digest" characterizations that has had a hand in creating this situation. You can not continuously bang the drum of racism, fascism and insist Trump is the second-coming of Hitler and turn around and be surprised when people act out this way. You have essentially told these groups of people that a guy that could be the next President of the United States is going to come for you. How are they supposed to react?

Yep, I have see a lot of people on GAF relate Trump to Hitler, if you want non-violent resistance you shouldn't openly equate someone to Hitler.

 

[airmangataosenai]

This campaign cycle has really laid bare the disturbing acceptance of fascist means to an end on both the right and the left in America. It is one of tge frw timed this comparison seems fair. The author of the article is a nutter.

 

[BobbyRobby]

As long as the left incites violence less than the right, they can still be the lesser of two evils??


This article is pretty rotten. Strongly disagree.