ScraftyDevil
Banned
Xam, I hope you realize that this incredibly passionate indictment is going to reflect very badly on you if Star flips town.
If you're that sure, though...
If you're that sure, though...
-
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Ace Attorney [Mafia] |OT| Turnabout Scum
- Thread starter Sorian
- Start date
Xamtheking
Member
Asking publicly helps paint a more Town picture of yourself, which is good for Scum.
It's also nice to see Town insights as a result of the question and use that to change/improve your performance in future games.
StarSketch
Banned
You also seem to overrate my intelligence.
Xamtheking
Member
If you don't want to hammer, I don't want to force you to do anything, alright? Your vote is yours to use as you wish.
StarSketch
Banned
You know what, fuck it.
There's a theory that was getting kicked around earlier, that me claiming fits, even if it's a bit too perfect to be true.
I'm The Judge.
My role power is Jailer. Yeah.
Some of you might remember this:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=197047826&postcount=1483
That was me trying to hint that Xam had not been jailed. I knew the Jailer role roleblocks, obviously. I was being cagey because I didn't want to die but I still had to get that information out somehow. I used my power on Scrafty both nights. Also, Apparently people can still have non-killing roles used on them, hence Scrafty getting a gift. I wasn't sure if Xam was scum or not, and so I was hesitant to protect him. Also, if he wasn't scum and got role blocked, he wouldn't have gotten a read. So I crossed my fingers and hoped that there was another role running around that could protect him for me. Clearly, something happened.
Believe me or not. It's going to come out anyway when I get lynched later so ¯\_(ツ
_/¯
There's a theory that was getting kicked around earlier, that me claiming fits, even if it's a bit too perfect to be true.
I'm The Judge.
My role power is Jailer. Yeah.
Some of you might remember this:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=197047826&postcount=1483
That was me trying to hint that Xam had not been jailed. I knew the Jailer role roleblocks, obviously. I was being cagey because I didn't want to die but I still had to get that information out somehow. I used my power on Scrafty both nights. Also, Apparently people can still have non-killing roles used on them, hence Scrafty getting a gift. I wasn't sure if Xam was scum or not, and so I was hesitant to protect him. Also, if he wasn't scum and got role blocked, he wouldn't have gotten a read. So I crossed my fingers and hoped that there was another role running around that could protect him for me. Clearly, something happened.
Believe me or not. It's going to come out anyway when I get lynched later so ¯\_(ツ
_/¯Xamtheking
Member
I have some questions.
Do you know if the person you jailed gets attacked?
Does the jailee know they were jailed?
Do you have any sort of private chat ability?
Why did you care so much about the Neutral on D1?
And for the time being
Unvote
Do you know if the person you jailed gets attacked?
Does the jailee know they were jailed?
Do you have any sort of private chat ability?
Why did you care so much about the Neutral on D1?
And for the time being
Unvote
I sincerely hope Jailor is not our only protecting role, because otherwise we are pretty much screwed.
I like the fact that non-killing roles bypass the jailor protection, since that pretty much means Xam was not protected by a jailor type of role, so now the fact that he is alive means there was a switcher or he was not a target. But that still not explains why he was not able to get the gift.
I like the fact that non-killing roles bypass the jailor protection, since that pretty much means Xam was not protected by a jailor type of role, so now the fact that he is alive means there was a switcher or he was not a target. But that still not explains why he was not able to get the gift.
Xamtheking
Member
I am fairly certain I was not targeted by Scum for a kill tonight. I wonder if Bowlie killed Riorius last night, the Neutral killed Bowlie, and Scum tried to target Scrafty again.
StarSketch
Banned
No to the first 3. As for the neutral thing, I already established why I brought that up. I thought it was a good starting point for some conversation. I was also under the assumption that it was a non-survivor /self removing Neutral. Though, "Why did you care so much about the neutral" implies I went on and on about it, and I only made like...1 post?
And now you see why I was so cagey about it earlier.
Xamtheking
Member
OH GOD THE PUNS
Also, is there a potential synergy between you and CornB in being able to stop his item flow?
StarSketch
Banned
...100% unintended.
I don't think so, because I was markedly confused when Scrafty started talking about items and I had to check my role PM again.
Unless this isn't the question you're asking.
Yeah, the main problem is that chances are you can't protect yourself, meanwhile other players can be protected by you. That means that your only hope is that there is another protector role that can keep your back. But the problem is, that scum will target you in the night for sure. If you die, it pretty much means there is no protector (Or the protector did not care enough to save you), if you don't die, then scum confirms they have another protecting role they have to care about.
Also Phoenix was our watcher (Well, one of his three abilities), and I find it really unlikely we have a second one, so scum has nothing to fear about been watched.
Xamtheking
Member
It's not the question I mean
CornB was talking about how he HAS to give an item out every night, and that he runs the risk of giving it to a scum or neutral. However, you can roleblock him to stop it from spreading, persay.
Do you know if your roleblock extends to the use of items, or is it not that complex?
StarSketch
Banned
Probably, yeah.
EzekelRAGE
Member
Star Jail blocked Scraf N1 and Xam N2?
Xamtheking
Member
She blocked ScraftyDevil both nights
EzekelRAGE
Member
StarSketch
Banned
I prevent a person from using their role and from being targeted by kill abilities. They aren't notified if I do this. I'm not notified if someone targeted the person I used it on. Non killing abilities can be used on people I jail.
Hmm but that also means that there is no way for people to know if you are saying the truth or not about your role. No notifications of any kind means no proof, only your word, and the fact that non killing abilities can go through like they are nothing is weird, sounds more like a doctor than a jailor, the only thing that makes your role similar to a jailor is that you roleblock your target while protecting it.
and this is what you understood from your role pm?
StarSketch
Banned
Me not getting notified is speculation, so far I haven't gotten any thing back aside from action confirmation. The non Killing role thing is not blatantly said, but it specifies protection from killing roles, and Scrafty still got her thing.
StarSketch
Banned
StanleyPalmtree
Banned
*court mandated post to show that im still here*
Stars jailor roleclaim certainly fits, but feel so unsubstantiated at it could so easily be just a really good lie, she certainly had the time to come up with it.
still feels very suspicious.
Zubz and Godamn, both of you are feeling suspicious of me due to my obvious inactivity, all i can say on that is i dont get much time to really get in here and even catch up, let alone come up with anything new too add to the discussion.
i made this pretty clear at the start of the game and it really hasnt changed.
if you have any questions or more substantial suspicious about me i would be happy to address them.
Stars jailor roleclaim certainly fits, but feel so unsubstantiated at it could so easily be just a really good lie, she certainly had the time to come up with it.
still feels very suspicious.
Zubz and Godamn, both of you are feeling suspicious of me due to my obvious inactivity, all i can say on that is i dont get much time to really get in here and even catch up, let alone come up with anything new too add to the discussion.
i made this pretty clear at the start of the game and it really hasnt changed.
if you have any questions or more substantial suspicious about me i would be happy to address them.
I would say that unless one has a role that explicitly states that another player is scum/town the majority of a Mafia game is based off of speculation and connections one makes based off people's posts and (re)actions.
To say that we have nothing on you would be untrue. Perhaps not you you but definitely your predecessors. We all know about QB's suspicious post about wanting to follow Scrafty which he kept trying to defend.
Then there's Drago who said "He(QB) made one early, baseless post that could and did draw suspicion, but he never came back to expand upon or explain why he did what he did..." Here. Plus I also point out to him that what he just said is not true. QB did come back and try to defend himself
I confronted him about it and he said "Yeah I totally missed those posts, I don't have an excuse for that. I was too hasty to post what I posted." Sure, the possibility that he was hasty and didn't see those posts is certainly possible, but its not like he was gonna say something to incriminate himself more. But right there, whether purposely or not, he lied.
Then there's my theory which I previously posted where perhaps TWE and Drago tried to start the ball rolling to try and get Hipster Cthulhu lynched.
I'm not 100% sure, obviously. I just stated my opinion and wanted to see reactions. StarSketch didn't even respond while you became quite jumpy. As for me building a narrative to get you guys lynched consecutively I don't think its true. I'm just stating my opinions based off of what I read and know now. If and when we learn more info(either through people talking, the lynch's result, the night actions) then I'll adjust my opinions and suspicions accordingly. If suspicion still falls on StarSketch or you then I will certainly consider voting for either one of you. If the new info dimishes my suspicion of either one of you/ I become more suspicious of someone else at the moment/something clears you guys as Town then I will place my vote elsewhere.
If you flip town, no, that wouldn't automatically exonerate Star, we'd have to also judge Star based on her own actions and posts.
Again, no, if you flip scum that also wouldn't 100% guarantee she's scum. But again we would certainly have to look at her posts and see the type of connections she's made with you and TWE.
Yeah, I specifically prefaced my opinions and theory with that to clarify that I have been looking at QB/Drago/you most closely than anyone else and that perhaps there was some bias to it plus I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt(because again you got replaced) and see how you'd react to my opinion(hence why I didn't vote for you on my theory post).
No, that's not the only option. It could be 1 scum & 1 town. 1 scum & 1 neutral. 2 scum. 2 town(I personally doubt it).
I don't think the answer is a "definitive 100% Yes"(as stated above). but I still feel like I have the right to vote for either of you. Especially for you when you state the latter. Why would I convince Xam to inspect the surviving one? It's already been stated that it's not good to openly state the one individual whom Xam should check, especially when there's the possibility that there could be a Scum switcher. If they exist, they could switch Xam's stated target with a confirmed Townie like Scrafty and thus Xam would be presented with a green check, taking away suspicion from the initial target. To me, for you to say that is scummy, that you'd want me to push Xam to choose the target and that you'd want the specific target to be stated out in the open.
Then there's also the fact that you call Scrafty's vote "safe". Safe would be if Scrafty had voted for StarSketch since she's already high up there with votes.
You say that she should look for others because suspicion has already been casted upon you but why would she vote for someone who she'd have even less suspicion about and more of a probability of being wrong? Is it because you're trying to last a few more days while she's off looking elsewhere? Since according to you we can just come back and lynch you later, but perhaps at that point it might be too late to do so and we may have already lost valuable players.
How am I eager? I just wanted to voice my opinions and see what you and the others thought about them. I didn't even vote, specifically because I want everyone to talk and so that we get more information as the day progresses. Why aren't you calling everyone else that has already voted for StarSketch eager?
If I was eager to end the day and prevent people from talking I would've voted for StarSketch and urged others to do the same.
But with the reaction to my post(plus what your predecessors have done and stated) I feel like I can place my vote:
Vote: SalvaPot
Go ahead and call it eagerness if you want, but I feel that I've backed my vote with concise thought and not just on a whim.
Is this question to force me to potentially role claim? So that if you do die at least Mafia will know if I'm a powerful townie or not, and if I were to be then they would have a good target to kill?
She could have been wrongly accused. The possibility of being innocent is definitely there. She could also be a neutral. Today she's been awfully rambly, it could obviously be because she's nervous about having so many votes on her, but she certainly does resemble TWE during his last minutes. And now she's role claimed, I'll have to google Jailer to see what it says. Of course, Sorian could've modified the role from any original roles but it's a good idea to get an basic understanding on Jailer. Her role does seem awfully specific and convenient though.
I explicitly stated that my theory, if true, of wanting to lynch Hipster Cthulhu was created by TWE and Drago
If StarSketch had also voted for Hipster Cthulhu then yeah I could've added her directly to the theory but that never happened. My direct suspicions of her were stated in my last post.
Caught up, some things:
-3 killing roles in a 21 player main season game would be ridiculous. I seriously doubt that is the case. Honestly, I am already very surprised we have two double kill nights in a row, that is already a lot for a 21 player game.
-Re-reading TWE his win condition, it specifically mentions that they need to be 50 % of the player count, NOT 50 % of the votes like normally. It is pretty clear that that is related to Ezekel his power, which tells me two things: 1) his power isn't as useful as originally thought, it can't prevent a scum win directly, and 2) it is even less likely to be a scum power, since if it WAS a scum power, they could get a vote majority without having a player majority, which would make a scum win unavoidable but the game will not end yet. That would be weird.
- I agree with Crimson that TWE being modkilled doesn't mean that he really copied something, else we could just go: "wait, he didn't got modkilled for it, so it HAS to be fake!" and Sorian would have basically confirmed the claim to be fake by not modkilling him. Which would be dumb.
About Starsketch:
I am not convinced about the role claim. The thing that strikes me as odd is that she was confused when Scrafty still got her little present, even though she later says her role PM clearly states it protects from killing roles specifically. Apparently she misread that part of her role the first time she read her PM? That's a weird thing to miss. Jailor is also a pretty good role to fake claim as scum, since it is useful and could exist, but isn't as common that you are certain to get counter claimed. I am still pretty suspicious of her. However, if she is lying about her role, there are other ways to find that out then just lynching her:
No, there is a pretty easy way to check if she is speaking the truth. Ezekel has a role which night action results are completely in the open the next day, and it's not like him not being able to preform his night action one time would seriously hurt us. And yes, there is the risk scum could use their powers to fuck with this, but lynching her to find out if she is speaking the truth or not is a risk too.
One thing I am interested about though, and I could understand it if Cornbro/scrafty want to keep this a secret, but: Wouldn't starsketch jailing scrafty N2 have prevented her from using the item she got on N1? Are you comfortable telling us about this Scrafty?
Also, unrelated:
Says the guy that put like 7 cops in his game
-3 killing roles in a 21 player main season game would be ridiculous. I seriously doubt that is the case. Honestly, I am already very surprised we have two double kill nights in a row, that is already a lot for a 21 player game.
-Re-reading TWE his win condition, it specifically mentions that they need to be 50 % of the player count, NOT 50 % of the votes like normally. It is pretty clear that that is related to Ezekel his power, which tells me two things: 1) his power isn't as useful as originally thought, it can't prevent a scum win directly, and 2) it is even less likely to be a scum power, since if it WAS a scum power, they could get a vote majority without having a player majority, which would make a scum win unavoidable but the game will not end yet. That would be weird.
- I agree with Crimson that TWE being modkilled doesn't mean that he really copied something, else we could just go: "wait, he didn't got modkilled for it, so it HAS to be fake!" and Sorian would have basically confirmed the claim to be fake by not modkilling him. Which would be dumb.
About Starsketch:
I am not convinced about the role claim. The thing that strikes me as odd is that she was confused when Scrafty still got her little present, even though she later says her role PM clearly states it protects from killing roles specifically. Apparently she misread that part of her role the first time she read her PM? That's a weird thing to miss. Jailor is also a pretty good role to fake claim as scum, since it is useful and could exist, but isn't as common that you are certain to get counter claimed. I am still pretty suspicious of her. However, if she is lying about her role, there are other ways to find that out then just lynching her:
No, there is a pretty easy way to check if she is speaking the truth. Ezekel has a role which night action results are completely in the open the next day, and it's not like him not being able to preform his night action one time would seriously hurt us. And yes, there is the risk scum could use their powers to fuck with this, but lynching her to find out if she is speaking the truth or not is a risk too.
One thing I am interested about though, and I could understand it if Cornbro/scrafty want to keep this a secret, but: Wouldn't starsketch jailing scrafty N2 have prevented her from using the item she got on N1? Are you comfortable telling us about this Scrafty?
Also, unrelated:
Says the guy that put like 7 cops in his game
flatearthpandas
Member
I'll try and get some reads down before the end of the day.
At risk of setting off unnecessary alarm bells, I do have to agree with I forget who that a lot of the suspicions I'm seeing do seem to be people clinging to pretty innocuous things and just pounding them. The thread stinks a bit of horseflesh, particularly in regards to QB. Has anyone checked up on Epic Mafia current theory? Is his suggestion what is actually the go-to move for that community? If so, there is much ado about nothing haunting him and his predecessors. Gafia has their way of doing things but it isn't the only way, as much as I do disagree with QB's original suggestion. I honestly see the constant reference to it as a convenient alternative to finding someone who wants to no-lynch day 1 and trying to build a scum case off of it when it's really not a viable option in this community despite its advocates usually volleying the ball of it around d1 regardless of their alignment.
Recent other thoughts:
There seem to be a lot of killing roles in play.
Starsketch's claim seems very convenient, and so does the fact that Xam is still alive. No notifications seem a bit strange but it also seems a bit crazy to claim for actions that intuitively most of us will wonder about, like jailing Scrafty without preventing her receiving items. I like Salva's idea of testing it with Ezekiel. More thoughts in a bit.
At risk of setting off unnecessary alarm bells, I do have to agree with I forget who that a lot of the suspicions I'm seeing do seem to be people clinging to pretty innocuous things and just pounding them. The thread stinks a bit of horseflesh, particularly in regards to QB. Has anyone checked up on Epic Mafia current theory? Is his suggestion what is actually the go-to move for that community? If so, there is much ado about nothing haunting him and his predecessors. Gafia has their way of doing things but it isn't the only way, as much as I do disagree with QB's original suggestion. I honestly see the constant reference to it as a convenient alternative to finding someone who wants to no-lynch day 1 and trying to build a scum case off of it when it's really not a viable option in this community despite its advocates usually volleying the ball of it around d1 regardless of their alignment.
Recent other thoughts:
There seem to be a lot of killing roles in play.
Starsketch's claim seems very convenient, and so does the fact that Xam is still alive. No notifications seem a bit strange but it also seems a bit crazy to claim for actions that intuitively most of us will wonder about, like jailing Scrafty without preventing her receiving items. I like Salva's idea of testing it with Ezekiel. More thoughts in a bit.
Honestly, I don't give a fuck about what they do and don't in Epic Mafia. I saw it as an attempt to get around having responsibility for the vote he did for that day, which is very scummy. If that is the way they play in epic mafia? Great, I don't care.
Also, the Ezekel idea was from me and not Salva. Why do people keep skipping me or crediting things from me to other people? It's Retro giving credit to Gorlak for MY awesome quote about Outer Gafia all over again
I also just thought about the fact that this idea would probably open up Scrafty for being night killed. However, lynching Sketch and her flipping jailor would also do that.CornBurrito
Member
Sorry, I don't buy this lol.
CornBurrito
Member
You chose Scrafty because it is a somewhat logical and "safe" choice. If you had chosen someone else and they were a secret town PR you'd have been fucked.
But Scrafty presents the problem of having gotten an item from me. So you added "oh but it only impacts killing roles."
But Scrafty presents the problem of having gotten an item from me. So you added "oh but it only impacts killing roles."
Xamtheking
Member
Star, what message do you get if you fail to jail someone?
flatearthpandas
Member
Honestly, I don't give a fuck about what they do and don't in Epic Mafia. I saw it as an attempt to get around having responsibility for the vote he did for that day, which is very scummy. If that is the way they play in epic mafia? Great, I don't care.
Also, the Ezekel idea was from me and not Salva. Why do people keep skipping me or crediting things from me to other people? It's Retro giving credit to Gorlak for MY awesome quote about Outer Gafia all over again
If that's how they play there, it isn't really scummy as fuck though imo. It not only reasonably excuses his mentioning it, but explains why he defended it. It's not like theory evolves in ways meant to be anti-town. Of course, if it's not actually how they play there then he was lying and can be policy lynched.
Sorry about miscrediting the plan for SS though. I agree with Roy that could be useful if there are better lynch candidates. But actually now that you mention it, not sure if losing confirmed town would be worth confirming a jailor at the rate we're dropping. Especially when Sketch or Scrafty getting NK'd will prove it just as well.
flatearthpandas
Member
To make sure I was clear, despite what I said, I guess I ultimately don't agree with taking theoretic jail protection off of Scrafty. Even if Sketch is lying we want confirmed town in the end game and scum has to let her live or lose Sketch the next day.
CrimsonFist
Member
If Star jailed Scrafty, then why was Xam unable to receive an item? I don't believe that town would have that many protection roles.
CrimsonFist
Member
If Scrafty tried to use the item last night, then she should at least know if she was role blocked.
Xamtheking
Member
Additionally, Star, the idea of you not having a private chat with the person you jailed is very suspect, because we've already had a confirmed role that can instigate private chats.
CrimsonFist
Member
I've seen other variations on the role. In one game, jailor was just a standard role blocker
Xamtheking
Member
Valid point.
Her answer to my question about a notification if the person she tries to jail is paramount to her survival, now.
This doesn't really matter that much. Just because we had one role that could create private chats, doesn't mean there has to be other roles that also do that.
CornBurrito
Member
It might be worth mentioning that the item Scrafty got is consumed automatically when certain conditions are met. So she can't verify being rolebloced by trying to use the item.
Matt Attack
Member
My problem with Star's roleclaim is that I just can't verify it and unfortunately, it doesn't change all of the specific things I found scummy about her before. Her defense essentially amounts to that single breadcrumb for her alleged role. The role itself sounds really useful, but I still read her as scum.
Xamtheking
Member
What's up with this post from earlier, StarSketch? According to you, you protected Scrafty N1, so why speculate on if someone protected her or not? Also, if Scrafty was such an obvious target, why did you protect her?
CrimsonFist
Member
Star's actions make sense enough. Protecting Xam would be pointless if you're going to roleblock him too. Scrafty is a confirmed townie with no night actions, so there's no downside to protecting her. If we treat the role as a doctor + rb then it's reasonable enough that an item could still be given, and the rb part resolves the issue of the doctor permanently protecting the cop.
I'd say that the role is plausible enough. The issue is that it's not verifiable.
I'd say that the role is plausible enough. The issue is that it's not verifiable.
CrimsonFist
Member
And of course that it seems like there was something protecting Xam last night.
Xamtheking
Member
I don't think I was targeted for a kill last night.
I am 90% sure DeKiller tried to give me his calling card and it failed, because as of now everyone has checked in and no-one got a calling card N2. And if I was supposed to get the calling card, Scum wouldn't want to kill me that same night, otherwise they probably would have killed Roy N1.
CrimsonFist
Member
Assuming that DeKiller is scum and not neutral.
Also, it doesn't seem like the card has done anything yet, or at least Roy hasn't said that it's done anything.
Although I was mostly going by the fact that CB couldn't give an item to you, rather than the fact that you didn't die.
Matt Attack
Member
Going off of the Mafia wiki, it isn't unheard of for a jailer role to only prevent kills, not other actions. Obviously it doesn't necessarily mean that's what Sorian did with this game, but it's worth considering at least.
CrimsonFist
Member
Ah, I see Roy already suggested having her block Zeke tonight. I have two issues with that plan:
1) that it tells scum who the doctor is going to be on.
2) if scum have a rb, they can fake it.
But as you say, if we lynch her then 1 isn't an issue anyway.
1) that it tells scum who the doctor is going to be on.
2) if scum have a rb, they can fake it.
But as you say, if we lynch her then 1 isn't an issue anyway.
CrimsonFist
Member
Ok, having read through more thoroughly, I'll go back through Star's other posts later to see if there's any direct contradictions.
I don't think we should lynch Star today. I believe that her role could exist, and it's not really one that it's a good idea to lose right now. I'm not going to object to having her protect Zeke to verify things, but I don't think that's necessarily going to work out.
So
Vote: flatearthpandas
I don't think we should lynch Star today. I believe that her role could exist, and it's not really one that it's a good idea to lose right now. I'm not going to object to having her protect Zeke to verify things, but I don't think that's necessarily going to work out.
So
Vote: flatearthpandas
flatearthpandas
Member
I think we can and should find a better target. As I said before, if this is a scum gambit, it requires Scrafty to live for it to work. So we get the same benefit as her being a real jailor either way.