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Actual Good Cop doesn't shoot a man. Gets Fired and Denied Pension

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RoadHazard

Gold Member
Absolutely disgusting. What the fuck, America. This is not what law enforcement should be like. Police should be trying to PREVENT people from dying, not performing the killings themselves at every opportunity (or getting fired for not wanting to play that game). You're doing it wrong, America. So very wrong.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Oh sweet summer children.




A lot of people (mostly white) can't grasp the fact that the popo is not there to defend them. Is hard to grasp that they do something bad or innapropiate.

Here in Sweden I'm absolutely convinced that they are. I'm sure there's the odd bad cop here too, but overall they're definitely good people. Cops shooting people (never mind killing or outright murdering them) is rare. The situation you have in America is exceptional, it's not what law enforcement in a normal first-world country is like.
 

bigedole

Member
So, I definitely don't think this guy should've been fired (though everyone latching onto the 'without pension' part is being super silly, he was a probationary employee and had no pension to lose). I would ask people here to tell me what they would do if they were cops, and someone in front of them raised a gun and pointed it straight at them, or a woman/man/child who was close to them and said "I am going to kill this person."

It's easy to say after the fact that the two cops were wrong since we know the gun was not loaded, but I think a lot of you really need to check your outrage and try to think through this holistically. Yes, the guy wanted death by cop, and what if he WAS ready and willing to shoot someone to make it happen? There are absolutely details in the Washington Post's account that are missing and we will probably never get to hear what exactly happened unfortunately, but the outrage here is a little much. What would we be saying in this thread if this guy had managed to kill his girlfriend or a cop before the police could react to him? The outcome for the man would be the same, but there'd be an additional body to count and we'd most likely lay the blame at the feet of the officers who were there.
 

benjipwns

Banned
There are absolutely details in the Washington Post's account that are missing
Not to mention that the WaPo article's writer is a known libertarian and anti-cop bigot who wrote these smears:
518lS5g5o9L.jpg
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
They won't say that he did the right thing because that suggests that the other two did the wrong thing. It's basically the same reason why we'll never prosecute SWATing properly. Most people aren't prepared to view police as murder weapons.

Not even surprised. I have a friend who was a cop who left the force because he couldn't stand the toxic culture there.

You can say its just a few bad apples, but thats a problem when the bad can oust the good.

That's the opposite of what the saying means. It's 'One bad apple spoils the barrel.' (or, commonly but less inaccurately, 'the bunch') It means that even just one 'bad apple' is unacceptable because it will corrupt the other apples.
 

bigedole

Member
Read the reddit thread that was linked here, the article used to start that discussion is much better:

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/r...not-fire-at-man-with-gun/stories/201609090080

Definitely raises eyebrows about what exactly the police chief was doing and whether or not Mader should have been fired, but even Mader himself said the shooting of Williams by the arriving police officers was justified. Encourage all to read it for a more objective accounting of what seems to have happened.
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
A cop who was a former Marine told me that he was in a situation like this by himself (minus the suicidal part) and he left the part about the guy having his hand on a gun out of his report because he didn't want to get shit for not killing him.
 
Read the reddit thread that was linked here, the article used to start that discussion is much better:

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/r...not-fire-at-man-with-gun/stories/201609090080

Definitely raises eyebrows about what exactly the police chief was doing and whether or not Mader should have been fired, but even Mader himself said the shooting of Williams by the arriving police officers was justified. Encourage all to read it for a more objective accounting of what seems to have happened.

Well right - the two officers who showed up to be presented with a man waving a gun at them didn't do anything wrong.

But why they fired the guy who tried to de-escalate the situation, I have no idea.

I guess it does go against their training that they shouldn't try to judge if the suspect is sincere in their threats. Someone has a gun and is threatening to use it, and they make a threatening movement, you respond with lethal force. That's the rule.

It's not really the police's job to counsel or make judgement about people's mindset or suicidal tendencies. That's a failing of the mental health system and its availability to people.

What if the guy had a loaded gun? What if he decided he wanted to shoot the woman and then himself? The officer might have seemed to be doing the right thing but it did endanger people to not take steps to incapacitate or kill the suspect when they threatened with the weapon and made threatening movements.
 
My dad used to be a cop in the early 2000's and he would share stories like this when a fellow officer would be congratulated for doing something like this.

This is just bullshit.
 

Saerk

Member
It unfortunately comes from the top, its clear the police chief here values the blue line more than anything else, and any cop who won't think first of his fellow officers (over citizens) is a liability, not an asset. Not every town and county is like that, some have very good police chiefs and LTs and sergeants who instill the idea that citizens come first and life should be taken only under extreme circumstances, but that is sadly still the minority of police organizations in the US.

Probably also the reason why most people don't really feel like they can do anything, how do you go about replacing the entire leadership of a bad police organization? Thats a very daunting task and requires some brave people to step up and go against folks who can make life extremely difficult for you and your family.

The pension thing is a bit of a red herring though, the cop is 25 years old and was hired July 2015. I don't think you get much of a pension (any?) for 1 year of work.

Pensions usually don't get until a certain amount of time served. City employees where I work need to accumulate 5 years of service before its vested. Not sure if it's the same for the Police, but It did say he was still on probation.
 
"911, please, my boyfriend is threatening to kill himself. He needs help!"

"Armed officers are on their way ma'am."

Yeah because suicidal people never take others with them before swallowing the gun, right? If anything this makes his likelihood to survive this interaction with the police much lower. You've now set the stage with a armed man who feels like he has nothing to lose.

Especially in a domestic situation, they probably train for these murder/suicide situations.
 
....*seethes with rage inside*

Virginia's for lovers, but trust there's hate here
For out-of-towners, who think that they gon' move weight here
Ironic, the same same place I'm makin' figures at
That there's the same land they used to hang niggas at

Clipse spitting truth.

The part where it mentions "two other officers came by and shot the suspect dead" just has me shaking from top to bottom. He disarmed the situation (not literally, but as mentioned, there was no need to BECAUSE THE FUCKING GUN WAS EMPTY) and is now told "you didn't do your job", because apparently his job is to shoot black people.
 
....*seethes with rage inside*



Clipse spitting truth.

The part where it mentions "two other officers came by and shot the suspect dead" just has me shaking from top to bottom. He disarmed the situation (not literally, but as mentioned, there was no need to BECAUSE THE FUCKING GUN WAS EMPTY) and is now told "you didn't do your job", because apparently his job is to shoot black people.

Nope
Mr. Mader said the other two officers — who are also white — did the right thing given their situation.

“They did not have the information I did,” he said. “They don’t know anything I heard. All they know is [Mr. Williams] is waving a gun at them. It’s a shame it happened the way it did, but, I don’t think they did anything wrong.”

Nobody knew the gun wasn't loaded, and the situation hadn't been defused. What you're saying is factually incorrect. You disrespect the other officers who responded properly to a suicidal man waving a gun at them.
 
Nope


Nobody knew the gun wasn't loaded, and the situation hadn't been defused. What you're saying is factually incorrect. You disrespect the other officers who responded properly to a suicidal man waving a gun at them.

I'm sure they're crying their eyes out at my criticism, meanwhile the officer who correctly gauged the situation and saw no immediate threat now is out of a job and a pension.
 

rjinaz

Member
Officers being disrespected in this thread?

Jesus you're braver than I am. These people have guns, want to kill you, and demand respect at all times.
 

peach

Member
Ugh, the good old hometown area...tri-state region. Right across the river from Steubenville for those of you not familiar.
 
"911, please, my boyfriend is threatening to kill himself. He needs help!"

"Armed officers are on their way ma'am."

That as happened a surprising amount of times. I remember reading about a mother who called the cops because her mentally ill son wasn't taking his meds and they shot and killed him. Probably not the punishment she had in mind...
 
I'm sure they're crying their eyes out at my criticism, meanwhile the officer who correctly gauged the situation and saw no immediate threat now is out of a job and a pension.

And I agree that there's no possible situation where he should be fired. The other two officers didn't do anything wrong. They had a right to protect their own lives as well.

The real takeaway from all this should be why wasn't he able to get mental help? Suicidal thoughts and depression don't come on instantly, it's something that has a long trail and buildup, usually. There's no mention of an inciting incident or reason he wanted to kill himself. The lack of support for mental health issues is the real problem in this specific situation.
 
And I agree that there's no possible situation where he should be fired. The other two officers didn't do anything wrong. They had a right to protect their own lives as well.

The real takeaway from all this should be why wasn't he able to get mental help? Suicidal thoughts and depression don't come on instantly, it's something that has a long trail and buildup, usually. There's no mention of an inciting incident or reason he wanted to kill himself. The lack of support for mental health issues is the real problem in this specific situation.

Nope. Bad policing is still at the root of this particular problem. Especially because this is a case where the police should be one of the first steps in getting him mental help. Also, the fact that you think suicidal thoughts can't occur extremely quickly is concerning.
 
And I agree that there's no possible situation where he should be fired. The other two officers didn't do anything wrong. They had a right to protect their own lives as well.

The real takeaway from all this should be why wasn't he able to get mental help? Suicidal thoughts and depression don't come on instantly, it's something that has a long trail and buildup, usually. There's no mention of an inciting incident or reason he wanted to kill himself. The lack of support for mental health issues is the real problem in this specific situation.
They could have protected themselves by leaving the scene while the cop who arrived first (and is the one who's situation it is unless they out rank him if it's like Texas)
 
Yeah because suicidal people never take others with them before swallowing the gun, right? If anything this makes his likelihood to survive this interaction with the police much lower. You've now set the stage with a armed man who feels like he has nothing to lose.

Especially in a domestic situation, they probably train for these murder/suicide situations.
Incredibly, incredibly rarely. The demonization of mental illness and testing everyone who's mentally ill, whether they're suffering from Major Depressive Disorder, Bipolar Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder or what have you exactly the same—that is, like they have Antisocial Personality Disorder and are completely dangerous, insane, violent nut jobs who could hurt anyone and everyone around them at any time—despite the actual facts and data in ABSOLUTELY NO WAY baring this out (in fact, consistently showing to the contrary-that they're more dangerous to themselves than anyone else) is one of the huge problems in this country that lets stuff like this happen.

People are very, very poorly educated about mental illness here letting incorrect and dangerous stereotypes and misinformation fill in the blanks, leading to the mentally ill being unfairly stigmatized and portrayed as a threat and it's one of the topics that infinitely infuriates me and I won't stand for people contributing to that stigmatization, intentionally or otherwise, as done here.
 
Incredibly, incredibly rarely. The demonization of mental illness and testing everyone who's mentally ill, whether they're suffering from Major Depressive Disorder, Bipolar Disorder, Borderline Personality Disorder it what have you exactly the same—that is, like they have Antisocial Personality Disorder and are completely dangerous, insane, violent but jobs who could hurt anyone and everyone around them at any time—despute the actual facts and data in ABSOLUTELY NO WAY baring this out (in fact, consistently showing to the contrary-that they're more dangerous to themselves than anyone else) is one of the huge problems in this country that lets stuff like this happen.

People are very, very poorly educated about mental illness here letting incorrect and dangerous stereotypes and misinformation fill in the blanks, leading to the mentally ill being unfairly stigmatized and portrayed as a threat and it's one of the topics that infinitely infuriates me and I won't stand for people contributing to that stigmatization, intentionally or otherwise, as done here.

Appreciate the insight into mental illness. It's obviously not something I'm an expert in.

However it's still an armed suspect pointing a gun at you. That's what the responders knew.

I don't know what other situation justifies use of lethal force if not that one.
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
This is the practice and attitude police have cultivated for decades. "Shoot first, ask questions later." If an officer is at risk, that takes top priority apparently over anyone else's safety or protocol.
 
It unfortunately comes from the top, its clear the police chief here values the blue line more than anything else, and any cop who won't think first of his fellow officers (over citizens) is a liability, not an asset. Not every town and county is like that, some have very good police chiefs and LTs and sergeants who instill the idea that citizens come first and life should be taken only under extreme circumstances, but that is sadly still the minority of police organizations in the US.

Bullshit.
 
This is messed up on so many levels, not only the guy dying from suicide by cop but the decent policeman being severely punished. Dude is a veteran and has kids, and they just cut him loose..
 

hipbabboom

Huh? What did I say? Did I screw up again? :(
I just had a real interesting conversation with a buddy of mine and it was real eye opening. I think when I was recounting the story to him, the word "brother" may have triggered him because he began just arguing the cop that didn't shoot was a newbie who wasn't properly trained and he should have shot the guy as soon as he saw the gun. The kicker? My buddy just got his CCW permit today. Dear god.
 

xk0sm0sx

Member
Haha, the way the Reddit thread described it, it's as if the only job of the police in US is to shoot and kill people.

He's holding a gun? Well we are now in danger, better kill him first.
No gun? Oh he might have one hidden around him, so better kill him first before we are in danger, since our training taught us that he CAN draw and shoot us first before we even click our triggers.

While in most countries, even for militaries, escalation to shooting is an absolute, absolute last resort. It's usually done after shouting several warnings, or else you do not shoot.

This is what your freedom to guns has bought you.
 
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