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[iamaustrian]

When the country allows people to legally carry guns for self defense then either the way a cop approaches a situation like this has to change or the right to carry guns. It's kind of bound to have tragic endings when it's left this way.

this

I don't get it why it's so hard to understand that this is a neverending vicious circle.
society of paranoia

side note:
I have dealt with plenty of traffic checks when I was in the USA and 90% of the officers were real assholes. They patronized me pretty much everytime. especially after they realized I'm an european citizen. terms like "euroboy" and "you can do that over there but not here" are insulting (to me).
I was also surprised that many cops screamed at my face to "put my hands on the wheel" while reaching for their guns.
it's like a whole different world here in the EU

 

[Raistlin]

When the country allows people to legally carry guns for self defense then either the way a cop approaches a situation like this has to change or the right to carry guns. It's kind of bound to have tragic endings when it's left this way.

Exactly

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Yeah, I figured this was about the other thread, rather than what I had actually written. Let it go mate. I responded in that thread. Leave it there.

You can put words in my mouth all you like. I know what I said and I know what I meant. You do your mental gymnastics and see what you want to see. I've not taken a position of laying blame anywhere, and I have already stated that there is clearly an issue with US Policing.

You've obviously got a strong opinion on this, so there isn't much point continuing to argue with you. I'm not changing my position either, so lets just agree to disagree and move on.

Haven't put any words in your mouth, and actually gave you a chance to clarify what you meant. And you did! No one's asking for you to change your stance, only clarify it.

However, if you think it's unfair that I'm more inclined to think you might have a bias based on your recent post history, then you need to realize that's anything but unfair — if you think this is just about your post history, you're mistaken (which is OK). You're imagining blame being cast here, which makes sense based on how focused you seem to be on blame (on police officers) in these stories. If you're upset over being accused of believing/saying something you don't believe/didn't say, then you're upset over nothing. Go back through the posts carefully if that's the case. If you need an example of someone jumping to conclusions and accusing someone of making something up in order to see the difference, that exists too.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

No police car, regular clothes, and didn't have his badge. Fuck anyone who tries to blame Jones for his murder.

So this wasn't a plain clothes cop then? Sounds like an off duty cop with nothing better to do than start shit at 3am. If he really thought it was an abandoned vehicle, what did he even think he could accomplish other than saying, yep, it's abandoned.

 

[jmood88]

You can't go around pulling guns on people who walk in your direction, just because its dark. Fear isn't an excuse. Your chances of being shot dead by a random stranger at night are still fairly low.

That goes for cops and civilians.

Aside from the fact that there's no evidence that he pulled the gun on the guy just because he walked up to him, Florida's laws would allow him to do so if he could show that he feared for his life, which he probably could considering he was in an area with a bunch of robberies, was stuck with a broken-down car early in the morning, and an armed man walked up to him.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

It's honestly a mindfuck. Like, I don't actually get it. And it always seems to be female anime characters. Never noticed this type of behaviour with avatars of shōnen heroes or seinen characters. It's always fucking young girls.

They're a product of their time. They're wearing avatars of 1000 year old dragons because they're also 1000s of years old. Have to judge them based on 1000 A.D. standards.

 

[Tarydax]

No police car, regular clothes, and didn't have his badge. Fuck anyone who tries to blame Jones for his murder.

Regular clothes, no cop car, no badge? Jesus fucking Christ. So for all anyone could have known, this guy could have just been some wannabe pretending to be a cop, or a carjacker, or . . . anything.

Here's a question to the posters defending the officer: if some random guy who claimed to be a police officer drove up to you and started giving orders, would you listen if he had zero identifiers as an officer?

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Even simpler take on the question: if two guys with guns meet under this circumstances, which one has the right to be scared?

The people who think there's equal guilt will think the same even in these simplified circumstances.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

Regular clothes, no cop car, no badge? Jesus fucking Christ. So for all anyone could have known, this guy could have just been some wannabe pretending to be a cop, or a carjacker, or . . . anything.

Here's a question to the posters defending the officer: if some random guy who claimed to be a police officer drove up to you and started giving orders, would you listen if he had zero identifiers as an officer?

I can't imagine any scenario where the cop is in the right. Every situation should end with the cop going back to his car and driving away. He can call the police just like any other citizen and report an abandoned car, or a guy waiting for a tow truck that happens to be armed. Let a marked, on duty cop handle it.

 

[Verelios]

I saw your horrendous dog whistle thread about roving gangs of inner city youth attacking random people and the disingenuous attempt to compare media coverage of that disparate hooligan behaviour to media coverage of dubious actions from law enforcement.
I may not know much about you but I know anyone who would create such a thread should be viewed with a cynical eye, long thereafter.

Cot' DAMN!

I applaud you sir, for a great freaking post.

 

[NumberTwo]

No police car, regular clothes, and didn't have his badge. Fuck anyone who tries to blame Jones for his murder.

Regular clothed? No police vehicle? No badge? Armed? Yeah, at that point, you're nothing more than some random armed stranger creeping on me at 3AM. Officers can't keep destroying peoples' lives and then expect for everything to be hand waved.

 

[cereal_killerxx]

This is messed up.

 

[The Maverick]

Throw him in jail. RIP to Corey.

 

[GeordieMark]

Haven't put any words in your mouth, and actually gave you a chance to clarify what you meant. And you did! No one's asking for you to change your stance, only clarify it.

However, if you think it's unfair that I'm more inclined to think you might have a bias based on your recent post history, then you need to realize that's anything but unfair — if you think this is just about your post history, you're mistaken (which is OK). You're imagining blame being cast here, which makes sense based on how focused you seem to be on blame (on police officers) in these stories. If you're upset over being accused of believing/saying something you don't believe/didn't say, then you're upset over nothing. Go back through the posts carefully if that's the case. If you need an example of someone jumping to conclusions and accusing someone of making something up in order to see the difference, that exists too.

The post that you have issues with was responding to the logic of BSB's post. It wasn't referring to this particular situation. I didn't say "the guy shouldn't have pulled a gun" or in any way suggest I had any clue what actually happened, or even what I thought had got down. You are wrong here. It wasn't a comment on the story, rather the rationality of one specific post in the thread.

Funny that you accuse me of being obsessed with the blame game when you created an entire thread about it. You are right, I did do you a disservice in that thread, but I also apologised and explained how I had come to be mistaken. I also responded to your posts after that too, so won't go into it here.

 

[Hi i'm Caleb]

This was Corey Jones. Just depressing to read about him. His friends, family and coworkers said he was one of the funniest and most humble guys. That he loved playing the drums, his friend Matthew even said that they were just musicians, they weren't violent. Imagine that, having your car break down, and rather than get help, you are shot and killed.

Goddamnit this is upsetting. Why man why does it keep happening.

 

[arevin01]

Another he's black so he must be armed so I gotta shoot him story. Man its tough out there just for being black. I mean you can raise your hands up and they still shoot you.

 

[Two Words]

Cops shouldn't not intrinsically be cops. When you are on-duty, you are a cop. When you are off-duty, you are not a cop.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Goddamnit this is upsetting. Why man why does it keep happening.

Indeed..

 

[isamu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McEvmosOYLo


still relevant 20 some odd years later....

 

[Spring-Loaded]

The post that you have issues with was responding to the logic of BSB's post. It wasn't referring to this particular situation. I didn't say "the guy shouldn't have pulled a gun" or in any way suggest I had any clue what actually happened, or even what I thought had got down. You are wrong here. It wasn't a comment on the story, rather the rationality of one specific post in the thread.

Funny that you accuse me of being obsessed with the blame game when you created an entire thread about it. You are right, I did do you a disservice in that thread, but I also apologised and explained how I had come to be mistaken. I also responded to your posts after that too, so won't go into it here.

And you explained that after I asked. Just not before taking offense to that question, assuming it was instead an accusation. Didn't say you were obsessed either. Just noting that you have a strong opinion about blame in general, and it's relevant with you seeing blame where there is none. You did say that your problem with these threads is when cops are "accused" of being racist or guilty, right?

That said, you considering that thread (the one asking for the rationale used by those that defend police in response to indefensible actions) to be about "the blame game" is troubling, but in line with your confusion here. I was interested in hearing the opinion of someone who was evidently and admittedly far-removed from the subject matter, but if you're going to feel persecution where there is none every step of the way, it might not be worth the trouble.

Cops shouldn't not intrinsically be cops. When you are on-duty, you are a cop. When you are off-duty, you are not a cop.

This is very true. It's clear some consider things differently though, both some officers themselves and people who believe criticism/scrutiny of police counts as personal attacks on individuals. Some have turned "police" into an identity rather than a job or institution.

 

[Spinluck]

RIP, this is so sad.

Why?

 

[nicanica]

RIP, this is so sad.

Why?

Because America seems to have this unspoken, un-addressable problem with guns, black citizens and cops.

Not necessarily all related in any way, but GAF threads usually involve minimum 2 of the 3.

 

[GeordieMark]

And you explained that after I asked. Just not before taking offense to that question, assuming it was instead an accusation. Didn't say you were obsessed either. Just noting that you have a strong opinion about blame in general, and it's relevant with you seeing blame where there is none. You did say that your problem with these threads is when cops are "accused" of being racist or guilty, right?

That said, you considering that thread (the one asking for the rationale used by those that defend police in response to indefensible actions) to be about "the blame game" is troubling, but in line with your confusion here. I was interested in hearing the opinion of someone who was evidently and admittedly far-removed from the subject matter, but if you're going to feel persecution where there is none every step of the way, it might not be worth the trouble.

No, I made clear my problem was the automatic assumption of guilt on either party in any individual case was wrong.

If you don't think that your thread was about blame, go read it.

 

[Kevtones]

This is really upsetting me.

 

[HeySeuss]

Cops shouldn't not intrinsically be cops. When you are on-duty, you are a cop. When you are off-duty, you are not a cop.

Unfortunately that's not very realistic. Cops aren't really allowed to "turn it off" when they're not on the clock. Many departments make officers carry their weapon off duty because they are required to act as an officer if they come across criminal activity.

Did he stop because he thought the dude was stealing a car? Did he stop to help a stranded motorist? We'll probably never find out. But pulling up to someone at 3 am in a van would cause anyone to be on edge. Most people don't stop to help anyone anymore, especially at 3 am. So while I wouldn't pull a gun on somebody until I knew what they wanted, I can see why the guy might have been fearful for his life. Civilians have every right to defend themselves just like police officers do. Sadly though, we will only get one person's story, and his credibility is zero considering he stole mophine from a crime scene at his previous job and lied about it on his application.

That tells me who I should believe already.

 

[Mr. Patch]

Anyone else notice the similarities to what happened to Trayvon Martin?

 

[TheOMan]

Even simpler take on the question: if two guys with guns meet under these circumstances, which one has the right to be scared?

Well, is one stranded while black?

 

[PassiveObserver]

Read today that the victim was Anquan Boldin's first cousin. RIP.

 

[Professor Beef]

Cop probably saw an abandoned car, and decided to try and loot it. Then saw someone inside, got spooked, and bang.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Anyone else notice the similarities to what happened to Trayvon Martin?

The two situations are pretty different.

 

[theignoramus]

The two situations are pretty different.

Both situations involve black males minding their goddamn business, bothering NO ONE and breaking zero laws, yet being confronted in a hostile manner by an antagonistic individual.
That is what pisses me off so fucking much about these types of stories, the general public seemingly cant just leave us be.
Mind your own business, stay out of trouble: youll still get fucked with.

 

[Hazmat]

No police car, regular clothes, and didn't have his badge. Fuck anyone who tries to blame Jones for his murder.

He didn't have his fucking badge? I can't imagine what was going through this cop's mind, other than "I can do whatever I want, I'm a cop."

 

[PrivateWHudson]

Cop probably saw an abandoned car, and decided to try and loot it. Then saw someone inside, got spooked, and bang.

Honestly that was my take on it as well. If he's caught, he can say that he was "investigating".

 

[Fourth Storm]

Looks like the kind of dude I would want to chill with. This is a tragedy.

I don't know how the facts will emerge. Sounds like there isn't any video or anything. But if someone is calling themselves a cop and has neither car nor badge, why should I take their word for it?

 

[BlackBanditSho]

Both situations involve black males minding their goddamn business, bothering NO ONE and breaking zero laws, yet being confronted in a hostile manner by an antagonistic individual.
That is what pisses me off so fucking much about these types of stories, the general public seemingly cant just leave us be.
Mind your own business, stay out of trouble: youll still get fucked with.

They're VERY similar. There's always some dude who CLAIMS to be in authority with no identifier in an isolated place. I tell my wife all the time that in my 20's, had I been approached as Trayvon had, I'd be dead too. You don't know WHO the fool approaching you is, and I'm already looking everywhere on high alert. These situations anger me.

 

[HeySeuss]

He didn't have his fucking badge? I can't imagine what was going through this cop's mind, other than "I can do whatever I want, I'm a cop."

Honestly the fact he didn't have his badge isn't that big of a deal. A lot of agencies don't require you to carry your badge if you're carrying your off duty weapon. Many just require you to carry your police ID with you. That's how my department is and we model our policies off the national best practices standard.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

Honestly the fact he didn't have his badge isn't that big of a deal. A lot of agencies don't require you to carry your badge if you're carrying your off duty weapon. Many just require you to carry your police ID with you. That's how my department is and we model our policies off the national best practices standard.

Is this on duty? If not..

Do you approach abandoned vehicles on the highway at 3am while armed, or do you call it in and let an on duty officer investigate?

Edit...saw the off duty part. plainclothes and unmarked car in the OP report make it sound like he was on duty, which is very misleading. I wonder if that was from the police, or poor reporting.

 

[Hyun Sai]

As a black man, I would be so paranoid visiting the US with all the shooting by people meant to protect.

No joke. I planned to visit US a few years ago, but I'm legit scared of the place now.

 

[Opto]

Can't wait for the CSI Cyber episode version where not only is his death a hoax, he also is secretly a liberal white guy trying to start a race war.

 

[HeySeuss]

Is this on duty? If not..

Do you approach abandoned vehicles on the highway at 3am while armed, or do you call it in and let an on duty officer investigate?

Edit...saw the off duty part. plainclothes and unmarked car in the OP report make it sound like he was on duty, which is very misleading. I wonder if that was from the police, or poor reporting.

Yeah I'll definitely give you that if he was on duty he would need to have his badge. The plain clothed officer is very misleading, but there's not many plain clothed cops working at 3am unless they're working narcotics deals in bars. And unmarked police cars aren't typically minivans.

I'd guess he either saw a stranded motorist and stopped to help, or more likely he saw a black man near an abandoned car and assumed the worst.

 

[Walpurgis]

And another innocent man bites the dust.

After normalisation of the data, America cops have shot way more unarmed civilians in a year than the amount shot dead by criminal gangs in the UK in a decade!

As a black man, I would be so paranoid visiting the US with all the shooting by people meant to protect.

It's why I refuse to ever go.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

Yeah I'll definitely give you that if he was on duty he would need to have his badge. The plain clothed officer is very misleading, but there's not many plain clothed cops working at 3am unless they're working narcotics deals in bars. And unmarked police cars aren't typically minivans.

I'd guess he either saw a stranded motorist and stopped to help, or more likely he saw a black man near an abandoned car and assumed the worst.

Thanks for the blue perspective. Not to put you on the spot, but are there any guidelines for how to approach a stranded motorist when off duty (especially if he was in the just stopped to see if you needed a hand mode)? I would assume gun drawn is not s.o.p., but is there anything recommending you leave your firearm behind?

 

[jmood88]

Honestly the fact he didn't have his badge isn't that big of a deal. A lot of agencies don't require you to carry your badge if you're carrying your off duty weapon. Many just require you to carry your police ID with you. That's how my department is and we model our policies off the national best practices standard.

Yes it is a fucking big deal. How the hell would anyone know that he's a police officer when he has nothing that can identify him as such?

 

[dabig2]

This entire story...man. Need some video, stat.

From this CNN article earlier today, here's a few pertinent details:

- Corey Jones not only never fired his gun, but he died 100 feet away from the car indicating he was running away. The gun was not on his body either (supposedly between the car and his body).

- the officer was already on high alert due to robberies in the area and was on his own little stakeout

My guess is that the officer approached the vehicle armed and ready to dispense justice on would-be criminals. Corey saw this unmarked van roll up, got startled and readied his gun; but the officer sees this action and starts shooting. Corey gets scared and runs for his life but is ultimately shot down.

So yeah, Murica. Another situation where guns make it worse. Though, a part of me feels Corey was a dead man walking anyway if that cop was going in as hot as I think. As we know from so many more police shootings, not following word for word immediately means they have the license to kill you. And they'll get a paid vacation out of it.

 

[HeySeuss]

Yes it is a fucking big deal. How the hell would anyone know that he's a police officer when he has nothing that can identify him as such?

By what I said we typically carry with us. Our police ID. Most cops don't carry their badge with them off duty. Many departments can only afford to give officers one badge and that's their uniform badge.

 

[shira]

This entire story...man. Need some video, stat.

From this CNN article earlier today, here's a few pertinent details:

- Corey Jones not only never fired his gun, but he died 100 feet away from the car indicating he was running away. The gun was not on his body either (supposedly between the car and his body).

- the officer was already on high alert due to robberies in the area and was on his own little stakeout

My guess is that the officer approached the vehicle armed and ready to dispense justice on would-be criminals. Corey saw this unmarked van roll up, got startled and readied his gun; but the officer sees this action and starts shooting. Corey gets scared and runs for his life but is ultimately shot down.

So yeah, Murica. Another situation where guns make it worse. Though, a part of me feels Corey was a dead man walking anyway if that cop was going in as hot as I think. As we know from so many more police shootings, not following word for word immediately means they have the license to kill you. And they'll get a paid vacation out of it.

3AM stakeout for robberies that were going to occur on the side of the road?

 

[HeySeuss]

Thanks for the blue perspective. Not to put you on the spot, but are there any guidelines for how to approach a stranded motorist when off duty (especially if he was in the just stopped to see if you needed a hand mode)? I would assume gun drawn is not s.o.p., but is there anything recommending you leave your firearm behind?

That's up the the individual department, but leaving your gun behind wouldn't be preferable if you opted to carry off duty. I don't carry off duty because my department doesn't require me to. I personally wouldn't approach a stranded motorist thinking I would need my gun at the ready. Even knowing there were recent robberies in the area like the above poster said, it might raise my awareness up given the time of day, but I wouldn't approach him with my weapon drawn.

 

[HeySeuss]

3AM stakeout for robberies that were going to occur on the side of the road?

Yeah that smells like bullshit. His own mini stakeout? Fuck outta here with that excuse

 

[PrivateWHudson]

This entire story...man. Need some video, stat.

From this CNN article earlier today, here's a few pertinent details:

- Corey Jones not only never fired his gun, but he died 100 feet away from the car indicating he was running away. The gun was not on his body either (supposedly between the car and his body).

- the officer was already on high alert due to robberies in the area and was on his own little stakeout

My guess is that the officer approached the vehicle armed and ready to dispense justice on would-be criminals. Corey saw this unmarked van roll up, got startled and readied his gun; but the officer sees this action and starts shooting. Corey gets scared and runs for his life but is ultimately shot down.

So yeah, Murica. Another situation where guns make it worse. Though, a part of me feels Corey was a dead man walking anyway if that cop was going in as hot as I think. As we know from so many more police shootings, not following word for word immediately means they have the license to kill you. And they'll get a paid vacation out of it.

A whole lot of words and I still can't tell whether or not he was on duty.

Wait, he was on duty. What department sends out a plain clothes cop in a van without a badge?

 

[YoungHav]

The U.S. has such a slavery era swag it's not even funny. The fact that there's a good chance this shitbag won't spend a day in jail speaks volumes.