That's not optimizing though. Here's an example of optimizing for you. When drawing things to screen you go from calling draw for every entity one at a time to batching the drawing. That's optimizing something.
Agni's Philosophy runs at 60FPS on a GTX 680, uses 1.8GB VRAM. Can next-gen run it?
- Thread starter Horse Armour
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That's not optimizing though. Here's an example of optimizing for you. When drawing things to screen you go from calling draw for every entity one at a time to batching the drawing. That's optimizing something.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Both still look like garbage, it's not the same for AA.
iamshadowlark
Banned
I didn't say it was.
I said SSM, took MLAA and optimized a custom version for GOW3...
Then you haven't seen good interpolation then.
Good interpolation is when you can't tell the difference between it being real or not. And little to no artifacts.
Got your point but that's really a matter semantics then...
The output image is only the result of many, many approximations that generally try to simulate the real life. If you push your logic to the end, anything that isn't real isn't adequate. Or any cel shaded game shouldn't be allowed to exist because they fail at being truly hand drawn...
There is no "same output", only an image defined by a series of parameters, sometimes forced, sometime tweakable. There is no holy grail of IQ, just choices and tradeoffs. AA is one, so is resolution, framerate, texture used, models polycount... You don't start with a perfect picture that you then modify in good or bad ways. You build something from scratch and try to do the best you can in the fastest way possible.
To me, anything that make the process quicker is an optimization. Worthy or not, that's personal judgment, subjectivity.
This is silly. AA is only a small part of your final image. Any form of AA blurs the output, where do you set the bar of "image degradation"? Wanted to detail, but in fact, just refer to what I answered to Durante.
By your logic, anything related to image rendering can't possibly an optimization.
There is no such thing as "console optimization" and "PC optimization". Every game is merely what developers could achieve given the constraints they had.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
I saw your offline interpolation examples over in OT and I wasn't impressed.
By your definition, rendering at a lower resolution is an optimization. I don't believe that is a useful definition.
It's like saying I optimized the process of transporting 5 kg from point A to point B by only moving 2.5 kg. "Optimization" would require me to move all 5 kg, but do so using less time or energy.
That was the default settings.
I didn't want to use the smooth settings since it would make it look even more like a soap opera.
depend what are you talking about GoW 3 AA was way better than 2~4MSAA at lower cost.
Mostly it is as durante says. People use therm for lowering resolution or IQ but it is wrong since effect is worse
I won't say way better. It sucks when it comes to sub pixel aliasing.
Well of course it can be. It's very common even. Would you rather have a Vsynced game mostly 30FPS in 720p or the same game mostly 60FPS in 680p? Extreme example of course but still.
Whatever works the best for the final experience, devs have to make choices, everything comes with a tradeof, if you can make your game run faster by decreasing resolution, and if it benefits the overall experience, then sure it's an optimization.
That you find it's pertinent or not is a matter of judgment.
When you optimize something, you may degrade other things. And in realtime rendering, you will almost always do.
edit : well we're truly only debating the meaning of a word i think. In the end i'm of the one that would take noAA over FXAA, but that's just my personal taste. Most people wouldn't.
R10Neymarfan
Member
Now that we know that the PS Orbis is 1.8 TF which is close to a 670GTX and 3.5GB RAM (presumably GDDR5) then I wager we can see Agnis Philosophy at 1920x1080p30 for gameplay and maybe 1440x1080p30 in 3D per eye with a nice format like SMAA T2x or SMAA S4x. And pre-rendered could be 1080p24 or 1080p30 in both 2D and 3D.
SneakyStephan
Banned
Gtx670 is optimistic imo, i would say in a more conservative comparison close to gtx660.
AuthenticM
Member
Didn't Square say that Versus' lighting would be done on Luminous but the rest of the game would still be running on Crystal Tools ? How does that work ? Wouldn't it be incredibly taxing for the console to run two different engines at the same time ?
Many games have multiple engines. Be it a physics engines, graphics, lighting, AI. They don't have to be under one single "engine".
And you know it from ? FFXIII was amazing looking game for PS3 and still is.
Can Crusher
Banned
Versus is using luminous lightning tech?
Next gen game confirmed?
Next gen game confirmed?
SniperHunter
Banned
And it didn't do much though...static environments, PS2 era character animations, barren locations, no AI, poor collision detection. The engine was good at displaying narrow corridors and cut scenes. thats about it
1 game.
That's actually pathetic.
You create a engine to support multiple games. Performance got worse with each new game.
isn't XIII-2 also CT ? Also i think FFXIV is also CT. And there is XIII-3 ...
That is not a lot of games but still something and it wasn't stated anywhere that SE will use it as their multi game engine. It was mainly created for FF much like most of engines which don't use UE,CE, FW or FB are.
Stop using FFXIII lack of features or design as CT lack of features. In some levels game was just mindblowing from graphical perspective. IQ was very good. It is still one of the best looking games on PS3 up there with Sony exclusives like GOW3 or U3.
And in each of them performance was bad. Even FFXIV on PC!
Relaxed Muscle
Member
FF XIV is a mess. Awfully optimized, and graphical problems everywhere.
FF XIII is a very beautiful game, but as soon as the engine tries to put bigger scenarios and characters on screen it drops fps.
FF XIII-2 is even worst regarding fps. Academia runs constantly in the mid 20 fps and it can be way lower. Also in some ways looks worst than FF XIII
Never played XIII-2 but FFXIII is great looking game and i do not agree on fps drops. Game had very solid frame-rate (on PS3 that is). As i said FFXIII is one of the best looking PS3 games.
As of FFXIV can't really say anything since i don't play MMORPG (hate them) but i installed their tech demo and it worked great on my dated hardware (before upgrade)
Relaxed Muscle
Member
To understand how bad is FF XIV engine is seeing that the req specs in the new version, which looks marginally better, are lower. I played the game for quite some time and the performance of the game was rather bad.
And I think XIII greatness resides mostly on the art department than rather the engine, most enviroments are pretty closed and the game drops fps in Gran Pulse (which is the biggest enviroment in the game).
Yeah game did have a lot of great art but at the same time it delivered fantastic IQ. Frozen lake, side levels of Gran Pulse, end game levels like city. Most of them were fairly complicated. Just their designers were fucking stupid and not allowed for more exploration.
As of FFXIV you don't know if this is tools problem or developers. FFXIV was rushed and released in horrible state as i remember.
SniperHunter
Banned
it is a barren looking game with barely anything going on screen. comparing it to god of war 3 is an insult.
Better hope it's using Luminous because Crystal Engine has been pretty much shit.
The only thing it really had going for it was animations and art style
FFXIV had a lot of problems but a lot of the problems stem from Crystal Tools and the developers have not been shy to put that out there. The Crystal Tools was 1) Designed for single player only games and handling more then 40 characters on the screen at once was a hardcap limitation imposed through the engine because it couldn't handle more then that without getting severe frame rate drops. 2) Horribly inefficient and segments of the games graphics code would throttle the game with minimal increase in fidelity. A good deal of UI lag was also part of this (on top of horrific server architecture) because of how badly the games graphic engine scaled this information.
Now some of it was indeed developers fault during the games inception but after examining the game and its future when the new management came on they decided they would rather scrap it and make a new game engine from scratch then even bother with working on it to make it better, let that sink in on what a miserable pile of crap the CT engine was, at least when it comes to MMOs. They asked Hashimoto to make a custom/sister development engine next to the Luminous engine because of it.
From what I've understood, Versus is still kind of using Crystal Tools, but simply so heavily customized that it's basically a different engine (or maybe it's better to say they used CT as a starting point and have then picked it apart and made it into something that fits their needs better). Just like how I think FFXII uses the same engine as some SQEX games before it, but after all the tinkering they did to it, you can't really say it's the same.
LiquidSolid
Member
Many? All of them do, aside from the really small scale ones, I guess.
It only makes sense to compartmentalise each component of the engine, as it lets you completely change or replace things (like a lighting or physics engine) without fucking up everything else in the process.
Do you really think the development troubles with XIII, XIV and Versus were pure coincidence? A large part of those problems quite obviously was a direct result of Crystal Tools. They tried to develop the engine itself right alongside all three games and it resulted in a complete clusterfuck. Why on earth do you think XIV 2.0 and Versus ditched it entirely?
Psychological Intellect
Banned
lmao this is too funny
Not for a while now.
They created engine mainly for PS3 called then White Engine. Because PS3 wasn't looking so hot after a while they decided to change or modify it to CT to have also X360 support.
FFXIII problems (in development not in actual game) were mostly because of that change. As of FFXIV if what you saying is true then this is not CT problem but people who choose CT as their MMORPG engine where they knew that it wasn't created for big online games and will have problems in MMORPG. Also it should be noted that FFXIII-2 had probably way lower budget in comparison to XIII so that could be why it wasn't looking so hot like XIII. I don't think XIII-3 either will have bigger budget.
Blaming everything on CT is in my opinion wrong since it already delivered fine looking game.
SniperHunter said:
I spent with FFXIII almost 150h and 40-50 with GOW3. I can safely say that FFXIII is one of the best looking games on PS3 without any problem. As i said Frozen lake is one of the best looking places in this entire gen. And there are more places like that in FFXIII. Just because game was for some shitty (i loved end game content) it doesn't invalidate what they achieved in graphic.
For interested Lake Bresha from XIII
Their youtube channel just posted 7 videos,but nothing as cool as the beard.
http://www.youtube.com/user/4GamerMovie
maquiladora
Member
If it runs at 60fps on a 680 with 1.8gb vram, what do you guys think the fps would be on a 660 with 1.5gb vram?
SquiddyCracker
Banned
I think the PS4 will run it better than the Durango, as it has a lot of GDDR5 RAM (which I believe is equivalent to the VRAM found in PC grafx cards) and a more powerful GPU than the Duranduran.
From what they explained at GDC, crystal tools is S-E's whole production pipeline common to the company, so yes they are. It's only poor reporting that has equated it solely to the FF13 engine.
â Narayan
Member
Or a 670 with 4GB VRAM?
HolyBaikal
Banned
I am now imagining Skyrim as it would look like if characters were designed by a Japanese studio.
And the look of abject fury on some people's faces.
LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
∀ Narayan;47502605 said:
At least 30fps. A 670 is not far off but a modest 5% OC and it matches a stock 680. No matter to me as I currently have 2 670's in SLI
Well, it was running on PS4 hardware and it looked pretty similar. So I think it can.
He said they are preparing development for a completely new Final Fantasy and to look forward to E3.
He said they are going to announce a FF game at E3.