-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Alec Baldwin Kills Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins With Real Gun
- Thread starter ManaByte
- Start date
Do you even read the stuff you post to support your failing argument? No wonder you suck at safety, you are sloppy as shit. I wouldn't trust you to serve me a can of coke without screwing it up.
Gun safety protocols are rigid on film and TV sets. This 'should never have happened.'
Industry veterans familiar with on-set gun protocols say 'Rust' shooting of Halyna Hutchins by Alec Baldwin "should never have happened." Here's why.www.usatoday.com
The actors job is to not aim guns deemed hot at other crew members. Their job, as outlined by actual experts above, is not to be the one checking the actual weapons. That would be insane. In this instance the armorer failed, the prop master failed, but more importantly the AD failed to do the most important job he had.
Allow me:
"But those aren’t the only safeguards in place. Actors and even sometimes crew will receive training from weapons professionals on gun safety. “You spend time with them, showing how a gun works, how you don’t point it at anyone ever, how you keep your finger off the trigger and always point it down,” Walters says.
To ensure there are no accidents during filming, actors often will be told to “shoot off axis,” Schneider says, which means aiming slightly away from another actor, because camera tricks can compensate for the shift.
If the actor points the weapon in the general direction of crew or the camera, measures are taken. Typically plexiglass shields with holes for the camera lens are crafted to protect operators from any muzzle flashes or gas discharges, even though typically they are never closer than about 15 feet from the weapon. The camera operator might also wear a special suit for protection."
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Boss Mog
Member
I'm surprised to hear this from you since you so fervently champion the side that promotes diversity hiring over competency hiring. I expect to see many more tragic accidents in the coming years in a wide variety of fields due to prioritizing gender, race, sexual orientation, etc in hiring practices rather than competency and skills.
FunkMiller
Member
Bloody hell, son. Learn what nuance in an argument is, eh? No-one argues there wasn’t incompetence on the production, but there’s no evidence that Baldwin had an effective production role that would have seen him directly culpable for the accident itself. That's where I take issue with the vitriol being aimed at him personally, by people with a silly political axe to grind. Yes, he should have had the obvious mentality of 'a gun is always loaded even when it's not', but if he's working with people who tell him the gun is cold, I'm not going to treat him like satan if his personal approach was a bit lax in that moment. Nuance.
Last edited:
Azurro
Banned
Can an adult be asked to clean his bum after using the toilet? I think an actor can be asked not to point and shoot a gun at someone.
I know a lot of them are pretty retards, but when your argument lies on someone acting like a complete imbecile and then telling us he's too much of an idiot to be expected to do any better, then it doesn't hold much water.
Airbus Jr
Banned
'Careless' and 'inexperienced' armorer, 24, on Alec Baldwin Rust set halted filming on last movie - starring Nic Cage - after 'giving gun to child actress, 11, on set'
The young armorer who allegedly handed Alec Baldwin the gun that killed the cinematographer on the set of his movie Rust was 'inexperienced' with guns
Sources claim Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, 24, had a history of reckless behavior around weapons and was 'a bit careless with guns'
Two production sources claim Rust Gutierrez-Reed previously gave a child actor a gun without checking it on set of the Nicholas Cage's The Old Way
The sources said she was seen loading blanks in an 'unsafe' fashion
Other sources add that blame also lies with Dave Halls, the assistant director who failed to check the gun when he told Baldwin it was safe to use
Baldwin tweeted a Variety article on Friday that he 'was told prop gun was safe before fatal shooting' as experts said he ignored basic gun safety rules
The young armorer who was responsible for the gun that killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins on the set of Alec Baldwin new film Rust has been careless with weapons in the past, sources allege.
A source who worked alongside Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, 24, on an previous film set said she has a history of recklessness around guns.
'She was a bit careless with the guns, waving it around every now and again,' the source told The Daily Beast. 'There were a couple times she was loading the blanks and doing it in a fashion that we thought was unsafe.'
Another source accused Gutierrez-Reed of loading a weapon on the pebble-filled ground and handing it to child actress, Ryan Kiera Armstrong, 11, without conducting a proper inspection.
'She was reloading the gun on the ground, where there were pebbles and stuff. We didn't see her check it, we didn't know if something got in the barrel or not,' a source who worked with her set of the upcoming Nicolas Cage film, The Old Way, said.
The individual noted that the crew waited to film until Gutierrez-Reed had double checked the barrel for obstruction.
A fellow Rust crew member referred to Gutierrez-Reed as being 'inexperienced and green,' alleging that there had been at least two incidents of guns being discharged on set before Thursday's fatal accident.
Rust crew members claim there were several complaints made against the armorer on the set and that at least six 'fed-up' people had walked off the set prior to Gutierrez-Reed handing Baldwin the gun that killed Hutchins.
'That should be automatic grounds for termination on a union film set, you should be gone. The first time that gun went off without telling anybody, that whole department should have been replaced, immediately. Clearly production thought better of it, decided to roll the dice and pay the ultimate price.'
'Cold gun!' shouted Halls before handing the gun to Baldwin, using the phrase to signal to cast and crew that the gun was safe to fire for the scene, the warrant said.
Seconds later, filming a scene inside an Old West-style church, Baldwin apparently aimed towards the camera and pulled the trigger, accidentally killing Halyna Hutchins as she filmed him, and injuring director Joel Souza, who stood behind her.
The young armorer who allegedly handed Alec Baldwin the gun that killed the cinematographer on the set of his movie Rust was 'inexperienced' with guns
Sources claim Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, 24, had a history of reckless behavior around weapons and was 'a bit careless with guns'
Two production sources claim Rust Gutierrez-Reed previously gave a child actor a gun without checking it on set of the Nicholas Cage's The Old Way
The sources said she was seen loading blanks in an 'unsafe' fashion
Other sources add that blame also lies with Dave Halls, the assistant director who failed to check the gun when he told Baldwin it was safe to use
Baldwin tweeted a Variety article on Friday that he 'was told prop gun was safe before fatal shooting' as experts said he ignored basic gun safety rules
The young armorer who was responsible for the gun that killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins on the set of Alec Baldwin new film Rust has been careless with weapons in the past, sources allege.
A source who worked alongside Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, 24, on an previous film set said she has a history of recklessness around guns.
'She was a bit careless with the guns, waving it around every now and again,' the source told The Daily Beast. 'There were a couple times she was loading the blanks and doing it in a fashion that we thought was unsafe.'
Another source accused Gutierrez-Reed of loading a weapon on the pebble-filled ground and handing it to child actress, Ryan Kiera Armstrong, 11, without conducting a proper inspection.
'She was reloading the gun on the ground, where there were pebbles and stuff. We didn't see her check it, we didn't know if something got in the barrel or not,' a source who worked with her set of the upcoming Nicolas Cage film, The Old Way, said.
The individual noted that the crew waited to film until Gutierrez-Reed had double checked the barrel for obstruction.
A fellow Rust crew member referred to Gutierrez-Reed as being 'inexperienced and green,' alleging that there had been at least two incidents of guns being discharged on set before Thursday's fatal accident.
Rust crew members claim there were several complaints made against the armorer on the set and that at least six 'fed-up' people had walked off the set prior to Gutierrez-Reed handing Baldwin the gun that killed Hutchins.
'That should be automatic grounds for termination on a union film set, you should be gone. The first time that gun went off without telling anybody, that whole department should have been replaced, immediately. Clearly production thought better of it, decided to roll the dice and pay the ultimate price.'
'Cold gun!' shouted Halls before handing the gun to Baldwin, using the phrase to signal to cast and crew that the gun was safe to fire for the scene, the warrant said.
Seconds later, filming a scene inside an Old West-style church, Baldwin apparently aimed towards the camera and pulled the trigger, accidentally killing Halyna Hutchins as she filmed him, and injuring director Joel Souza, who stood behind her.
D
Deleted member 1159
Unconfirmed Member
You’re not wrong about the stupidity of not hiring the best person for the job, but this reeks more of nepotism, though.
Cyberpunkd
Member
Put her name into Google - looks like typical American white thrash to me. Also it looks like her father's Wikipedia page has all references to her removed.
Last edited:
Boss Mog
Member
Your point?
Cyberpunkd
Member
Where's your diversity hiring here? Or did you assume the name 'Gutierrez' gave you the right to shit on her (alleged) Latino origins?
Slicker than your average
Banned
Stop with the blatant and heavy handed insinuations of racism.
Ah so all problems that occur is from the hiring of non white males then.
highrider
Banned
He’s the producer. He’s responsible for the incompetence. That’s not a nuanced point really.
Boss Mog
Member
No, gender is a diversity criteria as well, which is why I listed it, and it's obviously the one I was referring to in this case, at least i thought it was obvious... I think it's safe to assume that the vast majority of armorers on movie sets are men, experienced (as in not in their twenties) men I'd even say. Part of the diversity push is getting women do take on more jobs that are male dominated, even though there are clear reasons why certain fields are male dominated, it doesn't matter to the diversity czars, they need to get women in those fields no matter what. It could very well be that this woman was given the job (she clearly wasn't ready for) for this very reason, but it could also be nepotism as @Thaedolus suggested, I didn't do any research into her family.
You forgot to put straight in there...
. Seriously this kind of response is insufferable because it's entirely in bad faith. I'm speaking against diversity based discrimination, the best people (skills, experience, etc..) should always get the jobs no matter what they look like, period. These "best people for the job" shouldn't be discriminated against for factors beyond their control, such as their race, gender and sexual orientation.
Last edited:
FunkMiller
Member
ignored my whole post about the role of producers, eh?
Cyberpunkd
Member
One thing is for sure - girl probably has involuntary manslaughter charges coming her way and will never work in the industry again. Should have chosen that lighting and set career instead.
Droxcy
Member
Investigators reported the film set has been a disaster and most film crew walked off set that day about work conditions. So the accident happened with fluttered crew and a new set of camera operators Baldwin was showing how he would draw the weapon on camera and that’s when it discharged.
2-5 People that touched the weapon previously that day or before should be discharged from sets forever.
2-5 People that touched the weapon previously that day or before should be discharged from sets forever.
Read in the news today that they were rehearsing a shot where he was pointing the gun at the camera. I don't know how such things are normally done, but fuck. What a fucked up situation for everyone involved.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Good lord
D
Deleted member 1159
Unconfirmed Member
Good thread:
Money quote:
Money quote:
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Yep. Been saying.
There was a total breakdown of safety with negligence from the top to the bottom. Even Alec. He should know better.
NickFire
Member
I do not understand how live ammo was on set. I do not understand how anyone would have loaded live ammo into a prop. I do not understand how anyone passed the gun off without inspecting it for live ammo before the hand off. I do not understand how anyone would take a gun without checking for live rounds. As far as I am concerned, everyone involved in hiring the "expert", allowing the set to be so unsafe, and in handling that gun on that day are sharing in the responsibility for what happened.
tkscz
Member
Got a link for this?
zeorhymer
Member
Hollywood looking for a scape goat. Can't blame the cash cow?
nypost.com
‘Rust’ armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed once gave unchecked gun to 11-year-old actor: report
The “inexperienced” armorer in charge of weapons on set of Alec Baldwin’s movie “Rust” had given a gun to an 11-year-old actress without checking properly for safety, a report said.
nypost.com
GnomeChimpsky
Member
Good lord
Evil Calvin
Afraid of Boobs
I bet his balls are schweaty now!
Ionian
Member
Hollywood looking for a scape goat. Can't blame the cash cow?
‘Rust’ armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed once gave unchecked gun to 11-year-old actor: report
The “inexperienced” armorer in charge of weapons on set of Alec Baldwin’s movie “Rust” had given a gun to an 11-year-old actress without checking properly for safety, a report said.
Hardly a scapegoat if she loaded the weapon and was responsible for leaving it out without first checking it was clear.
Last edited:
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
He's not though. She wasn't a "diversity hire". And society isn't going to start suffering a cascade of tragedies just because women and minorities are being hired.
zeorhymer
Member
But now, the sheriff's dept wrote down that she put 3 guns on a table in a church nearby. Then the assistant director picked on up and said it was cold and gave it to Baldwin. The plot thickens!
zeorhymer
Member
Just pointing out that her dad is a veteran armorer in Hollywood for like 25 years. She probably got the job cause of connections like all the stuff that goes round in movie land.
Ionian
Member
Oh? Hadn't heard that, had thought she'd left them on the set to be used. Plot does indeed thicken if so, happen to have a link?
tkscz
Member
So wait what is the argument here? Are we arguing whether or not responsibility falls on Baldwin or the director or the armorer? Are we arguing that it falls on all of them and how this should be seen by the court of law?
This thread is kind of all over the place.
Ionian
Member
It should fall across the board, I'm saying she's not being used as a scapegoat is all. Massive failures up until the incident from several people.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
My stance from experience in the industry, and experience in firearm safety and training for over 30 years, is that they all bear some form of responsibility through negligence. Not one person is "completely innocent" least of all through the "ignorance" excuse.
However, with that said, different standards are unjustly held in the land of making make believe versus the general public. Even if there is a breakdown in rules and procedures from top to bottom.
zeorhymer
Member
"A search warrant released Friday said that Gutierrez-Reed laid out three prop guns on a cart outside the filming location, and first assistant director Dave Halls grabbed the gun from the cart and brought it inside to Alec Baldwin, unaware that it was loaded with live rounds.
'Cold gun!' shouted Halls before handing the gun to Baldwin, using the phrase to signal to cast and crew that the gun was safe to fire for the scene, the warrant said."
--Daily Mail
Cyberpunkd
Member
The assistant director is also never getting any work.
///PATRIOT
Banned
When some of them bypass meritocracy, yes. Only a fucking idiot would get a doctor or aerospace engineer just because the person is from a a "minority" group....
NickFire
Member
I am someone who believes every gun should be treated as a loaded gun unless the person holding it visually confirmed otherwise. I suppose if someone was falsely told it was a fake / non-working gun, then there may be room for an ignorance excuse. Not definite as the weapon may be obviously real.
I am no gun safety instructor, but I could swear the first rule of gun safety is treat every gun as if it were loaded. Maybe I am wrong.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
That is always the first rule, even on set. As well as not pointing the muzzle directly at any living being, whether it be human or animal.
Also, there should not have been a middle man between armorer and the actor directly. Veteran actors know this. Safety meetings cover this (which I am now hearing they were few and far between from reports). Such a sloppy indie film set, all around.
Last edited:
tkscz
Member
Understood and I see it as the same, the armorer shouldn't be seen as a scapegoat, especially if more than half the staff KNEW she was a screw-up from experience. The fault lands on all that was involved.
That being said, there would be, in a situation like this, levels of blame to go around. Had people not known her history, most of the blame could've gone to the armorer for not double checking the prop gun and warning everyone that it wasn't double checked (most but not all). It is her job to make sure of these things after all. She should be experienced and know all the safeties and precautions. But as the saying goes, whose more the idiot, the idiot or the people who trusted the idiot. They knew she had a bad history and hired her anyway (I'd love to know the reason for that). I don't know how the industry works so I could be missing something here, but someone yelled cold gun. Shouldn't that have been grounds for everyone to take a second to make sure all was well with the gun? Baldwin should've stopped and thought about it before trusting the armorer. Those who knew it was a cold gun should've made the warnings more clear. The director should've halted things. But I wouldn't put most of the blame on Baldwin, he trusted the armorer to know what she was doing, as she should. He followed the directions he was given. He doesn't walk out of this innocent though as he should've checked the gun, especially after someone yelled cold gun. I say most of the blame is on whoever hired the armorer. You wouldn't hire a security guard with a history of sleeping on the job, so why hire an armorer known for screwing up, waving guns around and handing prop guns to an 11 year old before making sure it's safe? Anyone can point the finger at the fool, but the bigger fool is the person who thought the fool could handle the job knowing they were a fool.
Boss Mog
Member
Like I said in a post after I didn't look into her family but nepotism was also a possible reason. Either way, she was offered a job she wasn't ready for and somebody died because of it.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
"Possible" lol
It WAS the reason. She does not get that job if she was a 24yr old woman without connections.
Boss Mog
Member
I said possible before I knew about her dad, now that I know it was most definitely the reason in this case but like i said there are plenty of progressives pushing for more women in male dominated fields (which I imagine being an armorer is part of) and even though a woman is perfectly capable of being a good armorer, she should be hired on the basis or her skills and experience, not just to promote more women in the field.
Last edited:
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
And I agree. But her being a woman had nothing to do with it. If she had been the 24yr old son of that famous prop master they would have got the job just the same.
Nepotism and stupidity was the problem here not "diversity".
Ionian
Member
Stupidity, absolutely. The Nepotism thing though is overblown I think as who hasn't gotten a job through family or friends word of mouth before?
Happens all the time, I'm not saying it's right but if a previously decent employee gives a good reference to someone he is close with then it holds weight. Nepotism would be the Father appointing her, he didn't. Recommend her and give a good reference, probably did. It was up to the staff to vet her.
nepotism
/ˈnɛpətɪz(ə)m/
Learn to pronounce
noun
- the practice among those with power or influence of favouring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs.
"he promised an end to corruption and nepotism"
Last edited:
highrider
Banned
He might not do anything, he might have a hand in everything, you have no clue anymore than I do. But he’s listed as the producer. This we do know. Sounds like a deeply troubled production, we also know that. I don’t like Alec Baldwin, it’s not politically motivated, he’s always been an asshole. It doesn’t surprise me that something like this happens to a guy like him. I call it Karmic debt.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
"Relatives or friends". For all we know someone associated with the production is friends with her dad and hired her because of that. I have a hard time believing her dad being who he is had nothing to do with a 24yr old getting a job like this.
Can't help but feel we are arguing about the wrong thing here though so I'll leave it at that.
Last edited:
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I will clear something up about Producer and Production, and some trying to give Alec a "limited role" or a "token title."
He is the co-writer and producer of the film and he owns the lead production company on the project, El Dorado Pictures.
He is the co-writer and producer of the film and he owns the lead production company on the project, El Dorado Pictures.
Last edited:
HoodWinked
Member
i feel like my comment should be reinstated. mod halp. i was 100% right.