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[jason10mm]

How do you gain the skill set to be a set armorer? I don't think this is a collegiate course of study (if it is, I know what I'm doing when I soft retire!!) so you kinda have to learn on the job like a guild. Thus her familial connection is normal.

Question is... did they NOT replace her earlier because she was a woman? What is the tolerance for failure?

 

[DeepEnigma]

How do you gain the skill set to be a set armorer? I don't think this is a collegiate course of study (if it is, I know what I'm doing when I soft retire!!) so you kinda have to learn on the job like a guild. Thus her familial connection is normal.

Question is... did they NOT replace her earlier because she was a woman? What is the tolerance for failure?

You are correct, it is an apprenticeship position. However, those who take their craft seriously, are usually proficient in firearm safety and the like taking at least the very basic certification courses through the NRA and other advanced avenues if you want to be taken seriously.

How to Become an Armorer/Weapons Master on Film Sets

An Armorer supervises the use of all weapons on a film set and provides instruction for the Actors on how to properly and safely use them.

www.careersinfilm.com

Are there some that "fake it to make it"? Well sure, such is life. That industry is rife with that as well.

 

[SlimySnake]

How do you gain the skill set to be a set armorer?

You need your dad to be a set armorer.

She likely got hired because of nepotism. Her dad probably vouched for her.

She didnt get replaced because of bad management. The producers were on a budget and were taking shortcuts everywhere. Replacing her wouldve probably cost them more money since experienced armorers likely cost more than a 24 year old newbie.

 

[GloveSlap]

This is shaping up to be so much more negligent than the Brandon Lee incident if the new details are true.

Like how do you have multiple misfires on set up to this point, and not only are people not getting fired, but those same people are still not being careful?

There definitely needs to be charges over this, to varying degrees.

 

[DeepEnigma]

This is shaping up to be so much more negligent than the Brandon Lee incident if the new details are true.

Like how do you have multiple misfires on set up to this point, and not only are people not getting fired, but those same people are still not being careful?

There definitely needs to be charges over this, to varying degrees.

Production should have been halted and safety meetings held after the the misfires. Which was not done, and hence the union workers walked off the set over safety concerns.

 

[GloveSlap]

Production should have been halted and safety meetings held after the the misfires. Which was not done, and hence the union workers walked off the set over safety concerns.

The walk off makes it even more baffling. A big part of your crew leaves because you are playing around, and you are STILL playing around.

Motive tends to be a big part of criminal proceedings, and with that many previous red flags....it becomes completely deliberate negligence/recklessness.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

This is shaping up to be so much more negligent than the Brandon Lee incident if the new details are true.

Like how do you have multiple misfires on set up to this point, and not only are people not getting fired, but those same people are still not being careful?

There definitely needs to be charges over this, to varying degrees.

I’m not sure the rules need to change when the problem is people just disregarding them. I’m a bit iffy on the whole “rewrite all the rules!” strategy when, you know, murder/manslaughter/negligence are already illegal. The EU lost their goddamn minds over regulations because some people were using industrial grade silicone in breast implants instead of medical grade, and now getting any kind of medical device on the market there is a fucking nightmare. That’s fine for people like me because I’ll always have a job, but it’s not like under the old regulations what those people were doing was ok. They just didn’t care, and people died

 

[GloveSlap]

I’m not sure the rules need to change when the problem is people just disregarding them. I’m a bit iffy on the whole “rewrite all the rules!” strategy when, you know, murder/manslaughter/negligence are already illegal. The EU lost their goddamn minds over regulations because some people were using industrial grade silicone in breast implants instead of medical grade, and now getting any kind of medical device on the market there is a fucking nightmare. That’s fine for people like me because I’ll always have a job, but it’s not like under the old regulations what those people were doing was ok. They just didn’t care, and people died

Not sure if you read changes where i wrote charges. I agree with you though. I appreciate a good blank or squib, and they will no doubt become even more rare because of these absolute fools.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Not sure if you read changes where i wrote charges. I agree with you though. I appreciate a good blank or squib, and they will no doubt become even more rare because of these absolute fools.

You’re right, I read changes not charges, my bad.

 

[plushyp]

My kids learnt the same lesson with their Nerf Guns, don't even point that fucking thing at my head loaded or unloaded, I got shot just beside the eye from near point blank and rounded up every Nerf and fucked the load into the bin, you only get 1 shot in my house to fuck up like that

That's honestly the best way to go about it. Teaches the kids that actions have consequences.

 

[Jaysen]

Takeaways from that -

Professional prop master “The last line of defense is the AD.”

As one of the producers of the film, Alec is open to civil liability, which is odd since a day prior to the accident he made a video encouraging workers on his own movie to walk off if they feel unsafe. So he might just have been a producer in title alone.

 

[Gp1]

Ok, so... where was armorer if the assistant producer was handling and calling the guns?

Hollywood doesn't have a standardized security protocol in this cases? Even after the fair share of mishaps?

 

[6502]

Alec Baldwin was pointing gun at camera in Rust rehearsal, legal papers say

Legal papers shed light on what happened when actor Alec Baldwin fired a gun with tragic results.

www.bbc.co.uk

Looks like Alec was not the one goofing about...

This story doesn't mention the girl, but who the fuck puts a 24 year old in charge of anything?

The pics of her posing with guns does not instill professional confidence either.

And after the incident with the child she should never have been allowed to work again. But all the more reason to check anything she handled.

A chain of irresponsibility it seems.

 

[Jaysen]

Ok, so... where was armorer if the assistant producer was handling and calling the guns?

Hollywood doesn't have a standardized security protocol in this cases? Even after the fair share of mishaps?

According to the prop master in the video, it’s not unusual for the AD to be the last line of defense instead of the armorer, but the thing is the armorer, the props master and the AD have to all do a series of safety checks on all weapons used by actors before the weapon is handed to the actor. In this instance they all failed to do their job for some reason. Sounds like the set was a contentious one to begin with.

 

[bender]

Practicing/rehearsal always made the most sense in my head considering who the victims were. I just don't understand why you wouldn't practice with a rubber gun for a rehersal.

 

[Gp1]

Practicing/rehearsal always made the most sense in my head considering who the victims were. I just don't understand why you wouldn't practice with a rubber gun for a rehersal.

They were probably rehearsing something related to light/camera where the muzzle flash would be relevant. Which could explain the cinematographer and the director directly behind the camera...

 

[Jaysen]

They were probably rehearsing something related to light/camera where the muzzle flash would be relevant. Which could explain the cinematographer and the director directly behind the camera...

They weren’t. The AD told everyone the gun was cold. They were simply rehearsing Alec doing a holster draw and getting the angles correct. No one expected the gun to fire.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Practicing/rehearsal always made the most sense in my head considering who the victims were. I just don't understand why you wouldn't practice with a rubber gun for a rehersal.

Or doing what you're supposed to do if you still want the feel of the real thing for takes, so it's not off-setting. Get it directly from the armorer yourself with no middle man, spending 5-10 seconds to check the loading gate and chambers for rounds, and still not pointing the muzzle directly at another living being. Especially with no Lexan blast shields at bare minimum.

 

[jason10mm]

So he drew, clocked the gun, and deliberately pulled the trigger whole pointing the revolver directly at people who had no safety gear. That's straight up negligence. Not murder, maybe not even manslaughter though there are some varying degrees of that, but it's gonna be a civil suit or private settlement for sure.

 

[Halo is Back]

Or sycophants who think the man holding the gun doesn’t bear ANY responsibility at all.

Reminded of this,

Man, that video was fire!

 

[zeorhymer]

"The assistant director on the movie “Rust,” who handed a prop gun to Alec Baldwin before the fatal shooting last week, was previously fired from a film production after a gun incident injured a crew member, the movie’s production company told CNN."

The plot thickens!

 

[SentientStone]

"The assistant director on the movie “Rust,” who handed a prop gun to Alec Baldwin before the fatal shooting last week, was previously fired from a film production after a gun incident injured a crew member, the movie’s production company told CNN."

The plot thickens!

The dude also worked on the sequel to The Crow.
Sometimes I really do think we live in The Matrix.

 

[Dr Bass]

Or sycophants who think the man holding the gun doesn’t bear ANY responsibility at all.

Reminded of this,

To the complete idiots (sorry, I am through being nice), see how easy and quick that was? That's what's apparently "not the handler's job" when you're talking about life and death. I can't believe people are STILL arguing this point. Complete and utter stupidity. That's all Baldwin had to do and someone wouldn't have died. Seconds of inspection vs. someone losing their entire frigging life. If you are defending this, you could not possibly be more dumb.

 

[Jaysen]

"The assistant director on the movie “Rust,” who handed a prop gun to Alec Baldwin before the fatal shooting last week, was previously fired from a film production after a gun incident injured a crew member, the movie’s production company told CNN."

The plot thickens!

“
“Halls was removed from set immediately after the prop gun discharged. Production did not resume filming until Dave was off site. An incident report was taken and filed at that time,” it said.

“Upon wrapping production for the day, Dave Halls was officially terminated and given the specific reasons for his termination,” The company continued. “Dave was very remorseful for the events, and understood the reasons he was being terminated. A new assistant director as well as a new armorer were hired for the duration of principal photography.”

In the moments before the accidental discharge, one crew member said the gun was announced as a “no fire” or “cold weapon” for the scene. A second crew member said they asked multiple times if the gun was cleared for use in the shot, and did not receive a clear answer.”

He never should have been hired. Having him as the last line of defense got that poor woman killed.

 

[///PATRIOT]

“
“Halls was removed from set immediately after the prop gun discharged. Production did not resume filming until Dave was off site. An incident report was taken and filed at that time,” it said.

“Upon wrapping production for the day, Dave Halls was officially terminated and given the specific reasons for his termination,” The company continued. “Dave was very remorseful for the events, and understood the reasons he was being terminated. A new assistant director as well as a new armorer were hired for the duration of principal photography.”

In the moments before the accidental discharge, one crew member said the gun was announced as a “no fire” or “cold weapon” for the scene. A second crew member said they asked multiple times if the gun was cleared for use in the shot, and did not receive a clear answer.”

He never should have been hired. Having him as the last line of defense got that poor woman killed.

You keep going at with the last line of defense bullshit...

 

[Jaysen]

You keep going at with the last line of defense bullshit...

You mean the words of actual professionals?

 

[Decontamination Silo]

What person wouldn't take 3 seconds to check the gun you were just handed before pointing it at someone?

 

[SurprisedPikachu]

Very unfortunate, my condolences to the family. I hear that Alec Baldwin might be prosecuted for manslaughter, and the armorer may be prosecuted for negligence and manslaughter as well.

 

[ManaByte]

 

[Jaysen]

The guy standing right next to her when she was shot explains whose fault it was and how it can be prevented.

‘Rust’ Chief Electrician Says Halyna Hutchins Death Was Result Of “Negligence And Unprofessionalism”

Serge Svetnoy, the gaffer, or chief electrician, on the set of Alec Baldwin‘s Rust is laying the blame for the accidental shooting death of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins on the negligence of the film’s armorer and producers. In a scathing Facebook post yesterday, Svetnoy called out “the person...

deadline.com

 

[jason10mm]

The guy standing right next to her when she was shot explains whose fault it was and how it can be prevented.

‘Rust’ Chief Electrician Says Halyna Hutchins Death Was Result Of “Negligence And Unprofessionalism”

Serge Svetnoy, the gaffer, or chief electrician, on the set of Alec Baldwin‘s Rust is laying the blame for the accidental shooting death of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins on the negligence of the film’s armorer and producers. In a scathing Facebook post yesterday, Svetnoy called out “the person...

deadline.com

I wonder how he would feel if Alec had aimed 12 inches to the left.

And he assigned blame to the producers. Who might that be??

 

[JayK47]

Now we know how they had live rounds on "set". Complete lack of professionalism. I would expect this from backyard amateurs. Was the budget $20 and a six pack?

 

[Mikado]

mother of god...

Edit: To elaborate... How the hell do you not know where your firearms are at all times, _especially_ as the person whose job it is to know where the firearms are at all times?

What a fucking mess.

 

[zeorhymer]

It's not a "prop gun" when it fires bullets.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

It's not a "prop gun" when it fires bullets.

Prop gun means it’s to be used as a prop independently of its ability to shoot.

 

[GnomeChimpsky]

Takeaways from that -

Professional prop master “The last line of defense is the AD.”

As one of the producers of the film, Alec is open to civil liability, which is odd since a day prior to the accident he made a video encouraging workers on his own movie to walk off if they feel unsafe. So he might just have been a producer in title alone.

Circling the wagons. The last line of defence is the second to last guy to handle the weapon? Yeah...

And that "friend" of the deceased absolving Baldwin of all responsibility... pathetic.

 

[Azurro]

You mean the words of actual professionals?

It's pathetic how desperate you are to absolve Baldwin from his negligence. You don't need to do this, the media will do that job for you.

 

[Jaysen]

Circling the wagons. The last line of defence is the second to last guy to handle the weapon? Yeah...

And that "friend" of the deceased absolving Baldwin of all responsibility... pathetic.

I guess If you don’t like the opinion of people who obviously know more than you do based on them being experts, concoct a conspiracy theory that prop masters from other movies are somehow covering for Alec Baldwin.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I guess If you don’t like the opinion of people who obviously know more than you do based on them being experts, concoct a conspiracy theory that prop masters from other movies are somehow covering for Alec Baldwin.

And yet, you ignore the opinion of other experts who say this is not kosher how it all went down.

I am going to side with my own experience, no nonsense professionals, as well as the most basic firearms safety 101. Not some chump trying to scrounge up confirmation bias when he finds them.

Alec Baldwin among those responsible for checking gun, ‘Rust’ crew member says

A location manager for “Rust” says at least four people were responsible for checking the weapon that killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins — including gun-firing star Alec Baldw…

nypost.com

“A massive mistake was made,” Stacey Mickey-Evans told Australia’s 92.5 Triple M Gold Coast.

“There are massive protocols to stop these things from happening. There are multiple checks for it,” she said Sunday.

She noted that the armorist, assistant director and the key grip are supposed to “check the gun … no matter what’s going on on set.

“And then very lastly, the actor checks the gun,” she said of Baldwin, who was also one of the movie’s executive producers.

Firearm safety 101. Movie sets are not exempt from the universal golden rule. But, as I said before through experience, they do get away with things peasants don't. I can go on with some of the shit I witnessed and special treatments that would have people arrested in most other "normal" circumstances.

 

[Patrick S.]

You're telling me that on a Hollywood movie set, random crew members can grab "prop guns" that are just laying around somewhere, load them with real ammo, take them and go shoot at cans, then just put them back with the ammo still inside, then someone else grabs them, and, without checking, hands them to a movie star and says "it's all cool bruh", then the movie star points that gun at someone's head and blows their brains out?

Fuck.

People, as in more than one person, need to go to jail for a long time.

Nothing else to add.

 

[ResilientBanana]

mother of god...

Edit: To elaborate... How the hell do you not know where your firearms are at all times, _especially_ as the person whose job it is to know where the firearms are at all times?

What a fucking mess.

Easy, keep the guns in a guarded locked cage with sign in/out sheets and a camera. There's trailers for sleeping, hookers and blow, so why not have proper security for firearms? Movie studios should have these gun cage sready and available for use, with additional sign in/out procedures.

 

[jason10mm]

Given that this was a rehearsal, not a test of blank firing or a close up shot requiring dummy rounds, the gun should have been EMPTY. This is the BARE MINIMUM competency an actor can be expected to perform when handed a prop weapon. A simple visual check of the cylinder gap with the frame should have shown there was SOMETHING in at least one of the cylinder chambers; be it empty brass cases, a live round, a blank, or a dummy round. For this dry run rehearsal actually dry firing the revolver doesn't seem to have been necessary so Alec was negligent in failing to inspect the tool and in cocking and dry firing it in the direction of the crew instead of just mimicking the action and saying "pew pew" since the crew was in the line of fire and without protective precautions in place. Many other crew are also negligent.

Of note, this type of revolver is hard to quickly empty, each round has to be unloaded individually, even pushed out with the ejector rod if they were fired and the the case is stuck in the chamber. So I can see how a live round might have been left in and an incompetent series of inspections failed to identify it. You can't pop out the cylinder like on modern revolvers (in general, there are some break open styles, but Alec probably had a traditional Colt single action type revolver as those are by far the most common type depicted in Westerns) . This means it requires MORE on the part of the actor, possibly even pointing it into a discharge barrel and firing on all six chambers to verify whatever was in there was inert before calling the set "cold".

Given all the other screw-ups on this set I wonder if he had a gun belt with ammunition in it, and if that was live ammo he inadvertently loaded instead of dummy rounds or whatever they use in those things. Tracing the origin of the live ammo is going to be interesting (probably a hold over from the off-set target practice but it would be nice to know for sure by comparing the bullet and case from the shooting with the ammo they were plinking with). The thought that a scab could have sabotaged the set (and inadvertently got someone killed in the process) is terrifying. The previous gun mishaps likely point to incompetence rather than malicious intent.

 

[Mikado]

Easy, keep the guns in a manned locked cage with sign in/out sheets.

No doubt. As a prop master (much less an armourer), I'd be _furious_ if people were fucking around with on-screen assets.

"We've got everyone here to do the shot, we're burning daylight and god knows how many dollars a minute - where the fuck is that Infinity Gauntlet prop that we spent thousands of dollars to build?"
"Somebody from Craft Services grabbed it to get Instagram points by wearing it while shopping for chili at Costco."

 

[jason10mm]

Just to illustrate, an easy way to verify that a single action revolver is EMPTY is to place the hammer at half cock, open the loading gate, and then rotate the cylinder until you verify that all six chambers are empty. It takes about 5 seconds and can be taught in about 10 seconds.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Man, that video was fire!

Will Smith based af as usual

Things I've noticed (and questioned):

- Alec trying to turn this into an anti-gun issue and disavowing responsibility (shocker)
- Very few people turning their attention to proper gun safety (instead it's a circle jerk of who to blame)
- Very few people trying to figure out how live rounds were even on set much less in circulation with the prop rounds/guns
- Very few people using this tragedy to make changes in the film industry
- Very few people using this tragedy to push for safer conditions for stunt actors/actresses and other set workers

--

I probably missed some things

 

[DeepEnigma]

Will Smith based af as usual

Things I've noticed (and questioned):

- Alec trying to turn this into an anti-gun issue and disavowing responsibility (shocker)
- Very few people turning their attention to proper gun safety (instead it's a circle jerk of who to blame)
- Very few people trying to figure out how live rounds were even on set much less in circulation with the prop rounds/guns
- Very few people using this tragedy to make changes in the film industry
- Very few people using this tragedy to push for safer conditions for stunt actors/actresses and other set workers

--

I probably missed some things

There ARE rules for this, it's just this production did not follow them are were cheap and sloppy.

Veteran prop master turned down ‘Rust’ gig over ‘massive red flags’

During four days of negotiations, he became alarmed that “Rust” appeared to be a slapdash production that put saving money over people’s safety.

nypost.com

But during four days of negotiations, he became alarmed that “Rust” appeared to be a slapdash production that put saving money over people’s safety, he told the California paper.

“There were massive red flags,” he said, saying that he emailed to turn down the gig.

“After I pressed ‘send’ on that last email, I felt, in the pit of my stomach: ‘That is an accident waiting to happen,’” he told the LA paper.

Zoromski said he now feels haunted over the fatal shooting of 42-year-old cinematographer Halyna Hutchins — believing that had he taken the job, the deadly accident would never have happened.

“I take my job incredibly seriously,” he told the LA Times.

“As the prop master, you have to be concerned about safety. I’m the guy who hands the guns to the people on set,” he said.

One of his key concerns had been that producers — who only had a budget of $7 million — refused his request to also hire both an assistant prop master and an armorer.

Days after he turned down the job, Hannah Gutierrez Reed — a 24-year-old ex-model who’d only been armorer once before — announced she’d gotten the job as the “property key assistant/armorer,” the paper said.

Just months ago, she admitted she was scared of taking on such jobs because of her lack of experience.

“You never have a prop assistant double as the armorer,” Zoromski said. “Those are two really big jobs.”

Zoromski was also concerned that the prop master was being hired just two weeks before shooting started, robbing the key crew member of the months of prep time they usually get, he said.

“In the movies, the prep is everything. … But here, there was absolutely no time to prepare, and that gave me a bad feeling,” he said.

But in the end, the veteran actor and owner of the lead production company disregarded the most basic firearms safety rule, and one that is followed in proper Hollywood production, and that is to check the firearm you are handed... ALWAYS!

 

[BouncyFrag]

It's not a "prop gun" when it fires bullets.

The media gots to protect their own. They are so fucking corrupt.

 

[DeepEnigma]

The media gots to protect their own. They are so fucking corrupt.

This is true, if it were James Woods, they would call for his head and there would be article after article in the MSM aperatus describing everything I said that SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE, since them is the rules. You know, firearm safety 101.

There would be flippy floppies in this thread and all over the internets. My position would remain the same, however. The golden rule.

 

[cr0w]

I really have nothing to add outside of how badly I feel for the DP and her family, but as someone who has very little experience with guns even I would absolutely make sure there was nothing in the chamber, clip, what the fuck ever else could possibly be loaded. I don't trust anybody enough to take their word that a gun isn't loaded, I don't give a fuck who you are.

 

[Clear]

This is true, if it were James Woods, they would call for his head and there would be article after article in the MSM aperatus describing everything I said that SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE, since them is the rules. You know, firearm safety 101.

There would be flippy floppies in this thread and all over the internets. My position would remain the same, however. The golden rule.

Sadly true. CNN in particular has shown time again that its not to be trusted, making their obvious efforts in trying to protect Baldwin pretty queasy imho.

Not saying that he's solely responsible, but trying to mitigate his culpability as the person holding the weapon at the end of a chain of malpractices when he's both the star/most experienced performer on the set, and a producer... C'mon now.