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[Bebpo]

I've kind of tired of this game. It's probably because I played it so much in such a short space of time but once the strengths of the game lose their shine it really does get pretty mediocre. Not that I haven't enjoyed the time I spent with it, it was certainly top-tier in the writing stakes which is important to me. But the gameplay is ultimately just too full of bugs, glitches and downright stupid design-choices, like high-level Shadow Operative being absurdly overpowered so that they didn't need to find a more interesting way to make stealth viable in the end-game.

This might seem pretty harsh, but earlier in this thread I likened AP to Deus Ex. On a more sober evaluation I'd say it's closer to Invisible War in most areas.

You might want to just give it some time away. When I finished my first playthrough after a 3 day marathon session and started my 2nd run I wasn't feeling it that much. Felt burned out on it. But then I didn't play it for a day or two and came back and resumed playing my 2nd run in small doses and I've been having a blast quite literally.

Also if you think SO breaks the game (which it does, but that's why you don't get the good length one until pretty far in the game), then on your next playthrough make a build that doesn't get SO. Spend your points elsewhere and try something else. I don't have SO with my 2nd run build and I'm using heavy armor so my sound dampening is like...1 or 2 max. They hear me from half the map away and see me from even further back. I walk into an area and everyone guard comes running straight at me guns blazing. But that's why I have heavy armor and heavy weapons to take them on

 

[WanderingWind]

No.

Yes.

 

[Prime crotch]

Eeeeeeeeh that's a bit of a stretch. I mean the shooting kinda sucked in that one too until you got a decent weapon (and even then if you hit anywhere besides the head your shots would have basically no effect). And then you had the quest system, and the degradation not working properly, broken missions and a lot more crashes.

even so it was a more cohesive product, and the best gunplay in gaming bar none.
AP is all over the place, although it's still a better RPG than ME1

Yes.

even admiting so, AP's story is pretty poor, the only thing that saves it is the humour, and the interactivity

 

[Bebpo]

To each his own I guess. Despite it's flaws I thought ME1 at the time was a 9/10 quality game (though I admit it doesn't hold up as well these days) and I think no less of AP and would give it a 9/10 myself.

AP reminds me the most of Fallout 1 in every single way possible. In fact I personally feel AP is the spiritual successor of Fallout 1. Like that game the combat the gameplay is bit rough and systems can be broken and builds can be terrible, but at the same time the gameplay is fun and there's lots you can do with it. Like that game, you can change the story in many ways within the main narrative, the dialogue is great, and some subplots/characters are undeveloped and the main plot is kind of straightforward, short and nothing too amazing. Like that game you want to replay it and act different to people, change how story events play out, and change how you approach the gameplay scenarios. And similar to Fallout 1, AP is a short 15-ish hour, highly replayable adventure in a setting that you don't see that often in rpgs.

I played Fallout 1 for the first time last year and loved it despite it's flaws and felt it was easily a 9/10 quality rpg by today's standards. Again, I think no less of AP.


A lot of people complain about the gameplay in AP being rough and buggy but I think it comes down to "was it fun?" Because for me, the gameplay sections were just as fun as the conversations, maybe even more. On my 2nd play I keep fast fowarding through story-scenes because I just want to get back to the gameplay and have fun. Personally I had more fun with the gameplay parts in AP than I did for most of the Splinter Cell games, Assassin's Creed games, or the majority of stealth/action games on market.

 

[popsicle_sundays]

I am seriously considering this game tomorrow after work. I love any type of RPG honestly, and despite what I've seen it looks like a good time to be had, plus isn't there a NG+? It's between this and Nier for me because I need something new I can replay a few times.

Worth it? Or wait for a price drop?

 

[D2M15]

For the sake of dissenting opinion on the 'buggy mess' hysteria, the only bug I encountered in one-and-a-half playthroughs was the one I planted as part of a mission.

Not to claim it isn't unpolished and glitchy, which it absolutely is.

 

[lsslave]

I am seriously considering this game tomorrow after work. I love any type of RPG honestly, and despite what I've seen it looks like a good time to be had, plus isn't there a NG+? It's between this and Nier for me because I need something new I can replay a few times.

Worth it? Or wait for a price drop?

That is a tough call...

This game has a semi-NG+ (Veteran Mode) which just dumps a ridiculous amount of skills on you to start the game causing an overpowered character from the get-go :lol

Nier has 4 endings for playthroughs so a much different kind of multi-play game.

Both great choices, don't know what to tell you >.<

 

[jim-jam bongs]

You might want to just give it some time away. When I finished my first playthrough after a 3 day marathon session and started my 2nd run I wasn't feeling it that much. Felt burned out on it. But then I didn't play it for a day or two and came back and resumed playing my 2nd run in small doses and I've been having a blast quite literally.

Also if you think SO breaks the game (which it does, but that's why you don't get the good length one until pretty far in the game), then on your next playthrough make a build that doesn't get SO. Spend your points elsewhere and try something else. I don't have SO with my 2nd run build and I'm using heavy armor so my sound dampening is like...1 or 2 max. They hear me from half the map away and see me from even further back. I walk into an area and everyone guard comes running straight at me guns blazing. But that's why I have heavy armor and heavy weapons to take them on

Yeah you're probably right. The thing is, very soon my delivery of No One Lives Forever 2: Collectors' Edition will arrive and put AP to shame completely by having fantastic writing, gameplay and art yet also being a decade older.

That's the frustrating part for me about the gameplay. I love stealth games! What AP does right as a stealth game just doesn't make up for all of the things it does wrong:

- There are cameras but you can't disable them individually
- There is no way to hide bodies, they either fade quickly enough or not
- Doors can't be closed and take forever to automatically close
- Turrets can't be hacked by sneaking up on them
- Decoy sound is underused as a stealth tactic as enemies just don't react to a lot of noises you can make (which isn't a long list anyway)
- NO LEAN

And many more. For me, forgoing SO just isn't an option because I really want to play this as a stealth game since that's my thing.

 

[bathala]

Heck and Taipei Hotel Q

Spoiler

I'm trying to delete his files and have minimal casualty to not have -1 on Mina. I tried the radio mimic to no avail. Any other way?

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Heck and Taipei Hotel Q

Spoiler

I'm trying to delete his files and have minimal casualty to not have -1 on Mina. I tried the radio mimic to no avail. Any other way?

If you want 0 deaths the best way is

Spoiler

to just not delete his file. I was disappointed to see that he only drops a couple of approval points then forgets it right away.

If you really want to delete the file make sure you have a big pile of tranqs because you're going to need 'em.

 

[Prime crotch]

AP reminds me the most of Fallout 1 in every single way possible. In fact I personally feel AP is the spiritual successor of Fallout 1. Like that game the combat the gameplay is bit rough and systems can be broken and builds can be terrible, but at the same time the gameplay is fun and there's lots you can do with it. Like that game, you can change the story in many ways within the main narrative, the dialogue is great, and some subplots/characters are undeveloped and the main plot is kind of straightforward, short and nothing too amazing. Like that game you want to replay it and act different to people, change how story events play out, and change how you approach the gameplay scenarios. And similar to Fallout 1, AP is a short 15-ish hour, highly replayable adventure in a setting that you don't see that often in rpgs.

can't see eye to eye on that, Fallout was in no way rough like AP is, and the main plot is pretty good and doesn't reveal itself right away on the premisse

had they made a Chaos Theory clone and then put the rpg mechanics behind, not forgetting the martial arts tree, it would have been a much better game

 

[popsicle_sundays]

That is a tough call...

This game has a semi-NG+ (Veteran Mode) which just dumps a ridiculous amount of skills on you to start the game causing an overpowered character from the get-go :lol

Nier has 4 endings for playthroughs so a much different kind of multi-play game.

Both great choices, don't know what to tell you >.<

Hmm, as far as fun factor which one was more fun and which one bored you a bit? Because I've heard Nier can get a little boring sometimes. Btw, the Monster Hunter aspect of Nier isn't a turnoff, I love MH

 

[Basileus777]

Yeah you're probably right. The thing is, very soon my delivery of No One Lives Forever 2: Collectors' Edition will arrive and put AP to shame completely by having fantastic writing, gameplay and art yet also being a decade older.

That's the frustrating part for me about the gameplay. I love stealth games! What AP does right as a stealth game just doesn't make up for all of the things it does wrong:

- There are cameras but you can't disable them individually
- There is no way to hide bodies, they either fade quickly enough or not
- Doors can't be closed and take forever to automatically close
- Turrets can't be hacked by sneaking up on them
- Decoy sound is underused as a stealth tactic as enemies just don't react to a lot of noises you can make (which isn't a long list anyway)
- NO LEAN

And many more. For me, forgoing SO just isn't an option because I really want to play this as a stealth game since that's my thing.

There's no question that the stealth in the game is simplistic and shallow, even compared to the watered down Splinter Cell Conviction. I really enjoyed the game, but I don't get why people are so insistent on defending AP's poor gameplay.

 

[Prime crotch]

it's not stealth as much as run to the dude and stab him in the neck

once you get running kick though, screw stealth and start stomping dudes

 

[-tetsuo-]

Those two are quite possibly the best Bioware has to produce (Outside of maybe BG2, which I have not played).



Just as long as you are not expecting anything fancy (Unreal Engine 3 and all).

How can yall forget my main man

Spoiler

robot

Legion.

Yeah you're probably right. The thing is, very soon my delivery of No One Lives Forever 2: Collectors' Edition will arrive and put AP to shame completely by having fantastic writing, gameplay and art yet also being a decade older.

That's the frustrating part for me about the gameplay. I love stealth games! What AP does right as a stealth game just doesn't make up for all of the things it does wrong:

- There are cameras but you can't disable them individually
- There is no way to hide bodies, they either fade quickly enough or not
- Doors can't be closed and take forever to automatically close
- Turrets can't be hacked by sneaking up on them
- Decoy sound is underused as a stealth tactic as enemies just don't react to a lot of noises you can make (which isn't a long list anyway)
- NO LEAN

And many more. For me, forgoing SO just isn't an option because I really want to play this as a stealth game since that's my thing.

Looks like I'm the only one that put points into Sabatoge, lol. Remote hack lets you hack cameras and turrets.

 

[bathala]

If you want 0 deaths the best way is

Spoiler

to just not delete his file. I was disappointed to see that he only drops a couple of approval points then forgets it right away.

If you really want to delete the file make sure you have a big pile of tranqs because you're going to need 'em.

ok so I guess its not worth it.

because I did option 2 and -1 pts on Mina kept racking up cuz of him

 

[-tetsuo-]

ok so I guess its not worth it.

because I did option 2 and -1 pts on Mina kept racking up cuz of him

No shock traps?

 

[bathala]

No shock traps?

once u trigger the alarm the only way to shut it off is through hacking.

Spoiler

even if I don't shoot anybody, Heck shoots them and every body he drops u see -1 on Mina :lol

 

[-tetsuo-]

once u trigger the alarm the only way to shut it off is through hacking.

Spoiler

even if I don't shoot anybody, Heck shoots them and every body he drops u see -1 on Mina :lol

Wait, what?

Spoiler

In my game, Heck didn't kill anyone. He just flashed people and shot at them. I used shock traps as grenades for non lethal takedowns and got out with Mina still wanting to bang me.

 

[ArjanN]

once u trigger the alarm the only way to shut it off is through hacking.

Spoiler

even if I don't shoot anybody, Heck shoots them and every body he drops u see -1 on Mina :lol

Tell him not make any civilian casualties before the mission.

Wait, what?

Spoiler

In my game, Heck didn't kill anyone. He just flashed people and shot at them. I used shock traps as grenades for non lethal takedowns and got out with Mina still wanting to bang me.

You talk to him before the mission

Spoiler

and you can insist he doesn't make civilian casualties. If he's murdering people left and right it's because you allowed him to beforehand. I think you get a -1 with him for telling him not to kill, but it's easy enough to play along with his crazyness a couple of times.

 

[-tetsuo-]

Tell him not make any civilian casualties before the mission.

O ya I did tell him that. Probably the difference.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

In my run through, Heck will only cause -2 with Mina even if he kills more and by that late in the game, you have plenty of points and plenty of opportunities to get them back so dont worry.

 

[bathala]

yah I did the aggressive way to earn pts. but I just re-did the mission,

Spoiler

disabled all the guards first on the lobby, went back and erase the file, ran (no shooting) to disarm the alarm, and escape through the alternate route. didn't see any -1 on Mina. +2 on Heck.

 

[Bebpo]

There's no question that the stealth in the game is simplistic and shallow, even compared to the watered down Splinter Cell Conviction. I really enjoyed the game, but I don't get why people are so insistent on defending AP's poor gameplay.

So I guess the recent Metal Gear Solid games like Peace Walker which are getting raving reviews have poor gameplay too, right?

-In the recent ones you can't hide bodies
-there's no way to hack cameras AT ALL, only temporarily disable them or destroy them like AP
-You can't close doors
-You can't blindfire or shoot from behind cover
-Guards have a narrow scope for vision and sound like AP

If you just make a list of what things you can't do, every game sounds like it has poor gameplay. OTOH, how about making a list of things you can do in AP:

+Hack cameras
+Hack turrets
+Bash doors to knock down enemies on the other side and disable them
+Use EMPs to temporarily disable cameras/turrets
+Fire from behind cover
+Create fake sounds
+Blow up trucks for diversions
+Pick locks on doors to find alternate routes
+Do knockouts or knifings when you efficiently sneak up on an enemy
+Customize your weapons and ammo
+Buy intel that changes your things within a mission
+Make friends with people & factions who can come and support you as a diversion or to fight side by side.
+Destroy alarms so guards can't run up and activate them
+Take out guards before they activate an alarm
+Rig doors with explosives to prevent reinforcements from coming in from them

I'm sure I'm missing stuff and that's not counting the rpg skillsets & perks at all. If you count the skills, that adds another layer of things you can do in missions depending on how you've allocated points. Perks also can make a pretty huge difference as does armor in actual gameplay.

But hey, you can ignore all that and just run through the level shooting everyone. But wait, you can do that in MGS, SC, AC too! I don't see how AP's gameplay is worse than most stealth games.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

How can yall forget my main man

Spoiler

robot

Legion.



Looks like I'm the only one that put points into Sabatoge, lol. Remote hack lets you hack cameras and turrets.

Derp, yeah I did do a stealth/pistols/sabotage run but I forgot about that. Still, there should be a direct hack option for builds without that specific skill.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

yah I did the aggressive way to earn pts. but I just re-did the mission,

Spoiler

disabled all the guards first on the lobby, went back and erase the file, ran (no shooting) to disarm the alarm, and escape through the alternate route. didn't see any -1 on Mina. +2 on Heck.

I dont even remember getting a minus for Heck when i didnt help him my second time. I even got a +1 on the tv conversation after the mission if i remember correctly.

 

[bathala]

so the triad leader voiced by that guy from Seinfeld - waiting in Chinese restaurant

"Seinfeld Four"

I dont even remember getting a minus for Heck when i didnt help him my second time. I even got a +1 on the tv conversation after the mission if i remember correctly.

I got -2 during end mission brief if u didn't do it

 

[-tetsuo-]

Derp, yeah I did do a stealth/pistols/sabotage run but I forgot about that. Still, there should be a direct hack option for builds without that specific skill.

Nah man. Sabotage is one of the three paths you can go down. Taking that skill away from it hurts it's end game.

 

[Cep]

How can yall forget my main man

Spoiler

robot

Legion.



Looks like I'm the only one that put points into Sabatoge, lol. Remote hack lets you hack cameras and turrets.

Legion is extremely interesting, but also extremely underdeveloped.

 

[Basileus777]

So I guess the recent Metal Gear Solid games like Peace Walker which are getting raving reviews have poor gameplay too, right?

-In the recent ones you can't hide bodies
-there's no way to hack cameras AT ALL, only temporarily disable them or destroy them like AP
-You can't close doors
-You can't blindfire or shoot from behind cover
-Guards have a narrow scope for vision and sound like AP

If you just make a list of what things you can't do, every game sounds like it has poor gameplay. OTOH, how about making a list of things you can do in AP:

+Hack cameras
+Hack turrets
+Bash doors to knock down enemies on the other side and disable them
+Use EMPs to temporarily disable cameras/turrets
+Fire from behind cover
+Create fake sounds
+Blow up trucks for diversions
+Pick locks on doors to find alternate routes
+Do knockouts or knifings when you efficiently sneak up on an enemy
+Customize your weapons and ammo
+Buy intel that changes your things within a mission
+Make friends with people & factions who can come and support you as a diversion or to fight side by side.
+Destroy alarms so guards can't run up and activate them
+Take out guards before they activate an alarm
+Rig doors with explosives to prevent reinforcements from coming in from them

I'm sure I'm missing stuff and that's not counting the rpg skillsets & perks at all. If you count the skills, that adds another layer of things you can do in missions depending on how you've allocated points. Perks also can make a pretty huge difference as does armor in actual gameplay.

But hey, you can ignore all that and just run through the level shooting everyone. But wait, you can do that in MGS, SC, AC too! I don't see how AP's gameplay is worse than most stealth games.

That's a nice and all. It doesn't change the fact that AP has poor shooting and shallow stealth mechanics. You crouch behind enemies and take them down or use shadow operative when you want to make anything even easier. Sometimes you might have to throw an EMP at a turret. Stealth is boring because it lacks depth and sophistication. Customization is decent (though not that great) and I like how intel works. Perks have minimal effect on the game, but Armor does matter.

The game has well written dialogue and an excellent implementation of choices and consequences. That's enough for me to like the game, I don't need to make excuses for AP's failures in other areas.

 

[Bebpo]

I'll give you that shadow operative is broken and feels like cheating.

But crouch -> sneak up and take out a guy. That's like the principal of stealth games. In MGS you crouch and sneak up and grab or hold up a guy, in SC you crouch and sneak up and grab a guy, in AC you don't even need to crouch, you just run up and stab a guy in the back with a flying leap.

What I'm trying to get at is, this is the genre. Stealth games are simple games. They boil down to watching guard patrol patterns and crouching walking/running up and grabbing guys or causing distractions and running past them, or just saying screw it and shoot/fighting them all. That is like every stealth game to date and the reason stealth games are like that is because there are fans of the genre (myself included) and we enjoy this simple puzzle-like gameplay of sneaking through patrols and taking out people unseen.

 

[WanderingWind]

I'll give you that shadow operative is broken and feels like cheating.

But crouch -> sneak up and take out a guy. That's like the principal of stealth games. In MGS you crouch and sneak up and grab or hold up a guy, in SC you crouch and sneak up and grab a guy, in AC you don't even need to crouch, you just run up and stab a guy in the back with a flying leap.

What I'm trying to get at is, this is the genre. Stealth games are simple games. They boil down to watching guard patrol patterns and crouching walking/running up and grabbing guys or causing distractions and running past them, or just saying screw it and shoot/fighting them all. That is like every stealth game to date and the reason stealth games are like that is because there are fans of the genre (myself included) and we enjoy this simple puzzle-like gameplay of sneaking through patrols and taking out people unseen.

I think where it differs is that the guards in AP are really, really stupid. They'll be in corners staring at a wall for 15 seconds. They'll walk over dead bodies in some cases, in others they'll see a guy from 300 meters away.

But I do agree that playing a stealth character is the only way to really get this game. I never noticed the shooting sucked until the end where you're forced into shootouts. With the right build, you're not shooing more than 4-5 bullets a level (if that).

 

[Prime crotch]

I'll give you that shadow operative is broken and feels like cheating.

But crouch -> sneak up and take out a guy. That's like the principal of stealth games. In MGS you crouch and sneak up and grab or hold up a guy, in SC you crouch and sneak up and grab a guy, in AC you don't even need to crouch, you just run up and stab a guy in the back with a flying leap.

What I'm trying to get at is, this is the genre. Stealth games are simple games. They boil down to watching guard patrol patterns and crouching walking/running up and grabbing guys or causing distractions and running past them, or just saying screw it and shoot/fighting them all. That is like every stealth game to date and the reason stealth games are like that is because there are fans of the genre (myself included) and we enjoy this simple puzzle-like gameplay of sneaking through patrols and taking out people unseen.

that's too reductive; I could say Mario is just jumping, so by that logic why is Bubsy's not as good as Mario

in AP, you don't even have a way to scout the enemies position if you don't put some points into awareness; granted the enemies are dumber than Deus Ex's AI

 

[WanderingWind]

that's too reductive; I could say Mario is just jumping, so by that logic why is Bubsy's not as good as Mario

in AP, you don't even have a way to scout the enemies position if you don't put some points into awareness

..okay, that logic is terrible. It's an RPG. You don't get a lot of abilities if you don't put points into various skills. It's the point of RPG gameplay.

 

[Gestahl]

can't see eye to eye on that, Fallout was in no way rough like AP is, and the main plot is pretty good and doesn't reveal itself right away on the premisse

had they made a Chaos Theory clone and then put the rpg mechanics behind, not forgetting the martial arts tree, it would have been a much better game

I stuck dynamite in a man's pants and it corrupted my save. Fallout is the definition of an unpolished gem, 2 moreso.

 

[Prime crotch]

..okay, that logic is terrible. It's an RPG. You don't get a lot of abilities if you don't put points into various skills. It's the point of RPG gameplay.

but I can have the basic tools, a 5 sec ability followed by a full minute cooldown is not viable
there's a middle ground between turning invisible and not having the means to do stealth properly

 

[Bebpo]

Ok, yeah the guards a pretty dumb. But is that worse than AC2 where you jump into water and make a HUGE SPLASH right behind a guard standing in front of a treasure box facing away from it and he doesn't notice?

In AP when a guard spots a dead body they run up to it and look around for whoever did it. At least that was the case in my experiences.

you don't even have a way to scout the enemies position if you don't put some points into awareness

...you sneak around and take a look? I don't get how this is a complaint that you don't have a magic map that tells you were everyone is unless you put some points into stealth.

 

[WanderingWind]

but I can have the basic tools, a 5 sec ability followed by a full minute cooldown isn't viable

If you put enough points into it, it's indefinite. Again, basic RPG game design.

 

[Cep]

but I can have the basic tools, a 5 sec ability followed by a full minute cooldown is not viable
there's a middle ground between turning invisible and not having the means to do stealth properly

Err, invest more into stealth bud.

That ability becomes innate in two/three levels.

 

[Bebpo]

Prime Crotch, I'm curious what kind of build you had? You mentioned a jump kick and I never got one

I mean you get auto-awareness at 5 points into stealth, and it just seems to me that in a stealth game almost everyone will put at least 5 points into stealth.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

I dunno Bebpo, I think you're simplifying the genre in order to paint AP in a better light. To say that sneaking up behind dudes and taking them down is the core of all stealth games is true, but it neglects to take into account the complexities of it; how much noise do you make? Can you bump things by accident and reveal yourself? How wide is the enemy's FOV? How fast do they move?

Take Thief for example. In the Thief series you move very slowly when you're sneaking, far more slowly than a guard's walking pace. This makes sneaking up and blackjacking someone a challenge, and that's before you even need to deal with their body to prevent anyone else from finding you. In AP your duck-waddle is faster than the speed at which enemies are moving and you don't need to worry about the body.

Take NOLF2 for another example. The Siberian mission arc contains a level that is a large open courtyard patrolled by respawning guards. You can memorise patrol routes all you like, but if you start taking anyone down then you'll suddenly have a new patrol route that didn't exist before to worry about when a new guard arrives to replace the guy you took down. And in order to properly track the guards you need to put tracking darts on them.

If you want to take someone down non-lethally you also need to deal with the fact that they'll wake up in a little while and resume their patrol around the base. And if you're happy to shoot people you need to worry about bloodstains in the snow and the sound of the round exiting their head and hitting a wall near another guard.

So while it's true that the actual core is pretty close to most stealth games but it lacks the nuance that you find in the better examples.

 

[Bebpo]

Yeah, I'll completely give you that the stealth is nowhere near as good, realistic and hardcore as Thief, Nolf, I dunno about Deus Ex since I never played it.

I'm comparing AP to the stealth games that are the mainstream norm these days. Metal Gear Solid, Splinter Cell, and Assassin's Creed are arguably the most well known stealth games of the last 5 years. Playing AP I got the feeling Obisdian's goal was to make MGS the rpg and I think they succeeded for the most part.

 

[Y2Kev]

I just think it's too frustrating to play "stealth" if you also want to be competent firing, say, two weapons, and I understand the frustration. MG isn't an RPG, so immediately you have a rather wide toolset (and you really do, come on) to work with and you have every weapon in Drebin's 9000000 gun shop. And they're fun to actually fire.

But this is different, and that's to be expected. But I just don't find it fun to toy with the AI very much-- they're very limited, they're all on set routes and in very enclosed, tight spaces. The problem is that they don't really make it very satisfying (again, all in my opinion). If you're going to make it so that I don't get that really satisfying crunch right at the beginning, you've got to offset it with something else. Instead of doing that, AP craps in your face for 5-6 levels. The game isn't fun early for a bunch of reasons, but one of those is that the gameplay is just awful.

Also you can't throw out girlie mags.

 

[WanderingWind]

Just a quick aside, using NOLF's infinite spawning guards as a positive when talking about stealth is just...wrong. That was horrible.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Yeah, I'll completely give you that the stealth is nowhere near as good, realistic and hardcore as Thief, Nolf, I dunno about Deus Ex since I never played it.

I'm comparing AP to the stealth games that are the mainstream norm these days. Metal Gear Solid, Splinter Cell, and Assassin's Creed are arguably the most well known stealth games of the last 5 years. Playing AP I got the feeling Obisdian's goal was to make MGS the rpg and I think they succeeded for the most part.

Ah okay see that I can understand and agree with. That's mainly because I think that Splinter Cell basically killed the stealth genre by making everything feel really gamey and inorganic. Hitman is the last true paragon of stealth gaming, but that's mainly because it contains many elements that set it apart from the genre.

Kev's comment about toying with the AI is a telling one for me too. The AI in stealth games is probably the single most important aspect, and it's definitely not inaccurate to say that the AI in AP is dumb as a box of hammers and lacks the kind of awareness needed to make messing with it enjoyable.

Just a quick aside, using NOLF's infinite spawning guards as a positive when talking about stealth is just...wrong. That was horrible.

:lol

Nah man, that Siberian mission was fucking-ace. Still the best stealth level ever imo. The fact that they respawn means that the only truly effective technique for getting through it undetected is to shoot them all with tracking darts and let them go about their business. I've probably put a few days of real time into hanging about in that area watching guards smoke cigarettes and mutter to themselves :lol

 

[legbone]

a couple of questions before i jump in the car to go buy this. hopefully there will be some answers before i return. Do i have to play aggressive at all times to maximize my SIE experience (not just sex but the whole enchilada)? Or can i just be aggressive with her? and if i understand it correctly, you have to play through as a recruit to unlock veteran mode. is this correct? anyways, thanks in advance. off i go.

 

[Prime crotch]

...you sneak around and take a look? I don't get how this is a complaint that you don't have a magic map that tells you were everyone is unless you put some points into stealth.

I'm not even talking about a radar.
The stealth genre has evolved past what AP does; which is knowing where everyone is and facing, and you can simply break it by turning invisible or run without noise

taking Deus Ex as an example, you could stealth without problems from the get go since you could hear the guard's footsteps, hide in dark cornes, or just punch walls to attract attention, something that on Ap you either buy a gadget for or do a quickstep

plus, AP guys got worse eye-sight than MGS1 guards, guess it's the genome therapy

Prime Crotch, I'm curious what kind of build you had? You mentioned a jump kick and I never got one

I mean you get auto-awareness at 5 points into stealth, and it just seems to me that in a stealth game almost everyone will put at least 5 points into stealth.

I had full awareness to know where to shoot and went with martial arts SMG and AR.
Full awareness alone is cheesing stealth, but at times boring that's when you run up and punch a dude before he can alert everyone
editunching dudes is plain fun for some reason

 

[lsslave]

Hmm, as far as fun factor which one was more fun and which one bored you a bit? Because I've heard Nier can get a little boring sometimes. Btw, the Monster Hunter aspect of Nier isn't a turnoff, I love MH

Both are flawed games, have weak points, and are amazing.

As I said, tough call. My 2 favorite RPGs thus far this year hands down. I might give the edge to AP because my copy of Nier has been lent out and I haven't gotten to finish it yet :lol

a couple of questions before i jump in the car to go buy this. hopefully there will be some answers before i return. Do i have to play aggressive at all times to maximize my SIE experience (not just sex but the whole enchilada)? Or can i just be aggressive with her? and if i understand it correctly, you have to play through as a recruit to unlock veteran mode. is this correct? anyways, thanks in advance. off i go.

I can answer your veteran question: Yes, you have to beat the game in recruit. A recruit playthrough I recommend as your very first playthrough, it really helps you understand the choice/consequence with everything including stat points AND money spent!

 

[D2M15]

Do i have to play aggressive at all times to maximize my SIE experience (not just sex but the whole enchilada)? Or can i just be aggressive with her?

The game makes it pretty clear to you what actions she finds endearing (outside of conversation), but you don't need to follow them to the letter to make sweet Teutonic music with her.

 

[-tetsuo-]

And the bad AI is making it very difficult to pass this mission. In Moscow and

Spoiler

I'm trying to escape with Surkov and G22 is outside in force. Surkov goes to one cover spot anddoes not move, and never drop back into cover. SOhe just runs out, goes to cover, gets in a shooting posistion behind cover and gets riddled with bullets everytime.

Terrible that I forgot to stack up on items before I left for the mission