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AMD: Both XSX and PS5 RDNA2 based and have Hardware RT

That is not what efficiency means lol

It means RDNA 2 can delivery the same performance using less watts...

An example:

RDNA 12TFs uses 200W
RDNA2 12TFs uses 150W

Smaller node doesn’t give better performance per flop or whatever you are trying to create lol
So more performance by utilizing less power isn’t an improvement in efficiency? I guess I’m confused as to why not.
 

ethomaz

Banned
So more performance by utilizing less power isn’t an improvement in efficiency? I guess I’m confused as to why not.
Ready your post first lol

A new node having better efficiently is not better performance per flop lol

New process nodes:
+ increase performance per watt
+ decrease size of the transistors

New nodes doesn’t give you better performance per flop.
 
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So ps5 don't have an RT solution not made by amd? (The second chip Just for the rt)

That's from this Wired article and he says nothing about a "second chip".

When we last discussed the forthcoming console, he spoke about its ability to support ray-tracing, a technique that can enable complex lighting and sound effects in 3D environments. Given the many questions he’s received since, he fears he may have been ambiguous about how the PS5 would accomplish this—and confirms that it’s not a software-level fix, which some had feared. “There is ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware,” he says, “which I believe is the statement that people were looking for.” (A belief born out by my own Twitter mentions, which for a couple of weeks in April made a graphics-rendering technique seem like the only thing the internet had ever cared about.)

Nothing about any second chip in there. It says GPU hardware Ray-tracing, period. Anything extra was added by someone else.
 
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So like Xbox,that the only differences are only in teraflops,with a normal APU with the raytracing powered by AMD 👍
We don't even know that there's a difference in Tflops at this point. The only hard source claiming it is that Github post where people assumed one of the GPUs being tested HAD to be Sony's. But given that GPU has no Hardware RT showing up anywhere in the specs, it's looking like that may not have been it.
 

Tripolygon

Banned
He ask in a ironic ways like if Microsoft can't able to push with rt with dxr and rdna2

If Sony are using dxr and rdna2 why ask?

If they use the same solution both Sony and Microsoft have the same features
So yes, Microsoft have the same things he asked
It wasn't ironic, it was rhetorical.

Sony is not using DXR. That is a Microsoft windows API. And why ask? Because it is a known current limitation of rtx and dxr which I suspect he knows the answers to, hence the very specific question.

They can use similar hardware but have different extensions and use totally different software to address the hardware. Its for the same reason why a game using vulkan api can perform better than the same game using dx12 api or vice versa.
 
It wasn't ironic, it was rhetorical.

Sony is not using DXR. That is a Microsoft windows API. And why ask? Because it is a known current limitation of rtx and dxr which I suspect he knows the answers to, hence the very specific question.

They can use similar hardware but have different extensions and use totally different software to address the hardware. Its for the same reason why a game using vulkan api can perform better than the same game using dx12 api or vice versa.
exactly . he wants to highlight the shortcoming so later on they can explain how they overcame that issue
 

Tripolygon

Banned
exactly . he wants to highlight the shortcoming so later on they can explain how they overcame that issue
Yup. It becomes rather clear to see if you read one of the follow up tweets ethomaz ethomaz posted .

When you say “will work like”, I don’t think you’re including what the cycle times, impact on cache/memory bandwidth, etc. I also don’t think that DX12 DXR is the end of the line for the API structure even on Microsoft platforms. We both shall see :)
Plus Imagination technology has had a solution to the problem. Nvidia is also working on it based on information gleaned from their patent. I'm sure Microsoft is working on it too and I I hope RDNA2 answers the questions.
 
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Md Ray

Member
IMO, there is overwhelming evidence that points to PS5 being RDNA 2 if you care to look in the right places.

First up is this slide from AMD, pay attention to the "SHADER" and "HARDWARE" points, as there's going to be some explanations below:
AMD-Ray-Tracing-Vision.jpg

They mention that their current way of handling ray tracing on GCN and RDNA line of GPUs is through SHADER. In other words, there's no dedicated hardware to handle ray-tracing, so it is now handled through compute shaders to perform RT. This is what you'd call a software-based RT solution.

And this is where the Next Gen RDNA aka RDNA 2 comes in, with it bringing HARDWARE (or dedicated HW ACCELERATION) support as it indicates above. This is likely a similar HW technique to RTX's RT Core that's designed to perform/accelerate ray-tracing on dedicated cores instead of just relying on the shaders. This is what you'd call a hardware-based RT solution.

Now, many seem to have overlooked the recently released Crytek's Neon Noir ray-tracing benchmark that relies on compute shaders to do RT via DX11. This means it doesn't leverage DX12 DXR, or any of Nvidia's RT Core features to perform hardware ray-tracing. Its RT is purely software-based. To simplify it's specifically made to showcase RT on the "SHADER category" GPUs (GCN/RDNA1, etc.):
bTSNH9q.png


Now let's take a look at the WIRED articles for a moment. When the first article came out in April of 2019, Mark Cerny made mention of RT support on PS5 surprising many of us and lead some people to assume what he said about PS5's RT implementation to be some sort of a "software-level fix" like all of the current non-RTX and RDNA 1/GCN GPUs already do via software (e.g. Neon Noir above).

To clear this confusion up - he made another statement, again, via WIRED in Oct. 2019:
LoeFcP9.jpg

His wording seems to suggest that "No, it's not a software-based RT solution because we've got dedicated ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware instead". Another clear hint pointing towards it being RDNA 2. Bear in mind that while all the current RDNA 1 GPUs that are out in the market currently can support RT (through software), they do not have any hardware acceleration to handle ray-tracing in the GPU, as you can see in the first slide.

Fast-forward to Jan 7th of this year. 5600 XT press briefing QnA and Sony CES 2020:
During the QnA session after the 5600 XT's briefing, AMD's Mithun Chandrasekhar can be heard saying: "Both the next-gen Xbox, as well as the next-gen PlayStation, both of them are going to be powered by Radeon, and both of them support hardware ray-tracing natively". Notice he uses the phrase "both of them", and "hardware ray-tracing" in one sentence. We got confirmation that XSX to be RDNA 2 now. So one down, just one more to go?

Keep in mind that this QnA was conducted two months ago, on Jan. 7th, back when we were still speculating that XSX would end up being RDNA 1 with features like RT and VRS borrowed from RDNA 2, just like we do now for the PS5. On Feb 24th, not only did we get the TERAFLOPS count, but we also got the confirmation of RDNA 2.


And on the same day at the Sony conference CES 2020, we again sort of get a confirmation and a hint that it's RDNA 2:
bHFIZIf.jpg


That's all, for now. And I apologize if anyone of you has a hard time understanding my English. It's not my first language.
 
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darkinstinct

...lacks reading comprehension.
IMO, there's a number of shreds of evidence that points to PS5 being RDNA 2 if you care to look in the right places.

First up is this slide from AMD, pay attention to the "SHADER" and "HARDWARE" points, as there's going to be some explanations below:
AMD-Ray-Tracing-Vision.jpg

They mention that their current way of handling ray tracing on GCN and RDNA line of GPUs is through SHADER. In other words, there's no dedicated hardware to handle ray-tracing, so it is now handled through compute shaders in order to perform RT. This is what you'd call a software-based RT solution.

And this is where the Next Gen RDNA aka RDNA 2 comes in, with it bringing HARDWARE (or dedicated HW ACCELERATION) support as it indicates above. This is likely a similar HW technique to RTX's RT Core that's designed to perform/accelerate ray-tracing instead of just relying on the shaders. This is what you'd call a hardware-based RT solution.

Now, many seem to have overlooked the recently released Crytek's Neon Noir ray-tracing benchmark that relies on compute shaders to do RT via DX11. This means it doesn't leverage DX12 DXR, or any of Nvidia's RT Core features to perform hardware ray-tracing. Its RT is purely software-based. To simplify it's specifically made to showcase on the "SHADER category" GPUs (GCN/RDNA1, etc.):
bTSNH9q.png


Now let's take a look at the WIRED articles for a moment. When the first article came out in April of 2019, Mark Cerny made mention of RT support on PS5 surprising many of us and lead some people to assume what he said about PS5's RT implementation to be some sort of a "software-level fix" like all of the current non-RTX and RDNA 1/GCN GPUs already do via software (e.g. Neon Noir above).

To clear this confusion up - he made another statement, again, via WIRED in Oct. 2019:
LoeFcP9.jpg

His wording clearly seems to suggest that "No, it's not a software-based RT solution, because we've got dedicated ray-tracing acceleration in the GPU hardware instead". Another clear hint pointing towards it being RDNA 2. Bear in mind that while all the current RDNA 1 GPUs that are out in the market currently can support RT, but they do not have any hardware acceleration to handle ray-tracing in the GPU, as you can see in the first slide.

Fast-forward to Jan 7th of this year. 5600 XT press briefing QnA and Sony CES 2020:
During the QnA session after the 5600 XT's briefing, AMD's Mithun Chandrasekhar can be heard saying: "Both the next-gen Xbox, as well as the next-gen PlayStation, both of them are going to be powered by Radeon, and both of them support hardware ray-tracing natively". Notice he uses the phrase "both of them", and "hardware ray-tracing" in one sentence. We got confirmation that XSX to be RDNA 2 now. One down, just one more to go?

Keep in mind that this QnA was conducted two months ago, on Jan. 7th, back when we were still speculating that XSX would actually end up being RDNA 1 with features like RT and VRS borrowed from RDNA 2, just like we do now for the PS5. On Feb 24th, not only did we get the TERAFLOPS count, but we also got the confirmation of RDNA 2.


And on the same day at the Sony conference CES 2020, we again sort of get a confirmation and a hint that it's RDNA 2:
bHFIZIf.jpg


That's all, for now. And I apologize if anyone of you has a hard time understanding my English. It's not my first language.
You are making the assumption that hardware-based raytracing implies RDNA2. It does not. It's the other way around. Something that uses RDNA2 has hardware accelerated raytracing, which is not the same thing as hardware based raytracing. We also have various insiders (I think OsirisBlack is one of them) that claim PS5 raytracing is faster and more elegant that XSX raytracing. That won't be the case if they are using AMD's raytracing.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
You are making the assumption that hardware-based raytracing implies RDNA2. It does not. It's the other way around. Something that uses RDNA2 has hardware accelerated raytracing, which is not the same thing as hardware based raytracing. We also have various insiders (I think OsirisBlack is one of them) that claim PS5 raytracing is faster and more elegant that XSX raytracing. That won't be the case if they are using AMD's raytracing.

I've asked about this but didn't get a reply. My guess right now is that PS5 RT API is "closer to the metal" than Microsoft's DX version? Could well be wrong, though.
 

Tripolygon

Banned
You are making the assumption that hardware-based raytracing implies RDNA2. It does not. It's the other way around. Something that uses RDNA2 has hardware accelerated raytracing, which is not the same thing as hardware based raytracing. We also have various insiders (I think OsirisBlack is one of them) that claim PS5 raytracing is faster and more elegant that XSX raytracing. That won't be the case if they are using AMD's raytracing.
Yes it can. Take for example, checkerboard rendering. Xbox One, PS4, PS4 Pro and Xbox One X can all do it. But only PS4 Pro has specific hardware extension to help do it more efficiently with smaller cost.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
Well, if Sony uses Adshir LocalRay, then reflections would be much easier. LocalRay doesn't need denoising.

I've not heard anything about this but I guess anything is possible. To be fair if PS5 is/was running RT notably better than on XSX then it could just be down to SDK maturity than anything.
 

darkinstinct

...lacks reading comprehension.
Yes it can. Take for example, checkerboard rendering. Xbox One, PS4, PS4 Pro and Xbox One X can all do it. But only PS4 Pro has specific hardware extension to help do it more efficiently with smaller cost.
Completely different thing. The reason why Pro has it is because Sony took that from GCN Vega. If all had been on Vega, they would all have it. If they are all on RDNA2, they have the same raytracing. This is AMDs first step into hardware accelerated raytracing, they don't start with two completely different approaches.
 

Tripolygon

Banned
Completely different thing. The reason why Pro has it is because Sony took that from GCN Vega. If all had been on Vega, they would all have it. If they are all on RDNA2, they have the same raytracing. This is AMDs first step into hardware accelerated raytracing, they don't start with two completely different approaches.
No it is a bespoke Sony extension not part of Vega, likewise the gradient adjust feature, you will not find it in any AMD GPU. It can be done via software though.
 

Lort

Banned
Completely different thing. The reason why Pro has it is because Sony took that from GCN Vega. If all had been on Vega, they would all have it. If they are all on RDNA2, they have the same raytracing. This is AMDs first step into hardware accelerated raytracing, they don't start with two completely different approaches.

Naww why correct him... I’ve always enjoyed having a chuckle how few people actually understood that every AMD GPU has those capabilities .. but they take Cerny is some GPU god for this capability that he didn’t invent he back ported from the slightly newer GCN edition.

Also since ps4 pro is always destroyed by Xbox one X (which doesn’t have it) ... it’s just a reminder who actually did better customizations to the GPU.
 

Lort

Banned
Huh?

Both will be using customized versions of the silicon based on the AMD architecture.

Why are you trying to ... oh nvm. It's you.

I see you failing to my correct entirely accurate summary of the ridiculousness of the “whatever you can do I can do better”approach in this forum.

Also which is it AMD ray tracing or Adshir? Or are you trying tosay it’s both? Make a prediction if you’ve got the balls.

It has I suggest ( and always have) most likely the same AMD ray tracing .. but as I also pointed out if it’s “simpler and more elegant” it’s going to be Adshir.

I do not think it will be some cray better / different / simplified RDNA2 AMD ray tracing.

but hey if you want to predict that ... go for it ... I’m listening
 

Tripolygon

Banned
Naww why correct him... I’ve always enjoyed having a chuckle how few people actually understood that every AMD GPU has those capabilities .. but they take Cerny is some GPU god for this capability that he didn’t invent he back ported from the slightly newer GCN edition.

Also since ps4 pro is always destroyed by Xbox one X (which doesn’t have it) ... it’s just a reminder who actually did better customizations to the GPU.
Yes it can. Take for example, checkerboard rendering. Xbox One, PS4, PS4 Pro and Xbox One X can all do it. But only PS4 Pro has specific hardware extension to help do it more efficiently with smaller cost.

You're a special kind of idiot.

One console is 6TF the other is 4TF, it is not shocking that 6TF will perform better than 4TF given the same workload and architecture. It speaks nothing of special better customization. Its a function of, number of cores X frequency X 2.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
I see you failing to my correct entirely accurate summary of the ridiculousness of the “whatever you can do I can do better”approach in this forum.

Also which is it AMD ray tracing or Adshir? Or are you trying tosay it’s both? Make a prediction if you’ve got the balls.

It has I suggest ( and always have) most likely the same AMD ray tracing .. but as I also pointed out if it’s “simpler and more elegant” it’s going to be Adshir.

I do not think it will be some cray better / different / simplified RDNA2 AMD ray tracing.

but hey if you want to predict that ... go for it ... I’m listening

What do you mean this forum? You mean just select people?

You sure like the paint a broad brush when you don't check the shit in your own backyard. My comment was a benign and neutral one, yours was like this:

Now you want to dial it back and get all "technical" after your typical console war shitposting bait?

I don't disagree that it is more than likely based off the same silicon, and all I asserted was both will have their own customization's with how they execute it, not being "base generic".
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Also since ps4 pro is always destroyed by Xbox one X (which doesn’t have it) ... it’s just a reminder who actually did better customizations to the GPU.

This is so disingenuous c’mon... yeah, let’s forget it came out a year later and increased the price of the box by $100.
See, others can like PS4 Pro and Xbox One X without having to twist and bend facts to suit their narrative and smear the other console...
 

demigod

Member
This is so disingenuous c’mon... yeah, let’s forget it came out a year later and increased the price of the box by $100.
See, others can like PS4 Pro and Xbox One X without having to twist and bend facts to suit their narrative and smear the other console...

Came out a year later at $499, it has now dropped to $299 at times already. So much for being a premium product.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
This is so disingenuous c’mon... yeah, let’s forget it came out a year later and increased the price of the box by $100.
See, others can like PS4 Pro and Xbox One X without having to twist and bend facts to suit their narrative and smear the other console...

And borrowed the RAM design/controller to a T because it was that good. Which is a great thing for gamers and developers alike.
 
In my opinion, The statement above does not explicitly say that the next playstation will have RDNA 2. My Guess is that the playstation needs GCN architecture as a part of its DNA due to playstations backward compatibility Method. Supposedly Rdna 2 is not holding on to any part of GCN architecture. I guess we will see.
 

Lort

Banned
This is so disingenuous c’mon... yeah, let’s forget it came out a year later and increased the price of the box by $100.
See, others can like PS4 Pro and Xbox One X without having to twist and bend facts to suit their narrative and smear the other console...

let’s get technical .. and we have covered this before...in games that use checkerboard such as Rainbow 6 ... the xbox one x has relatively more GPU throughput than just the GPU and mem bandwidth increases .. the xbox GPU therefor has better “optimizations” than the Ps 4 pro.

In summary neither have significant optimizations ... and I certainly didn’t say they came out at the same time or where the same price. They are the same node size though.. so my comparison is 100% relevant.

I’m sorry if the truth hurts but that’s just the way it is. If it makes you feel any better about accepting this know that I though the xbox focus on tv was lame .. and that their investment in the cloud whislt technically feasible was a failure.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
In my opinion, The statement above does not explicitly say that the next playstation will have RDNA 2. My Guess is that the playstation needs GCN architecture as a part of its DNA due to playstations backward compatibility Method. Supposedly Rdna 2 is not holding on to any part of GCN architecture. I guess we will see.

That is impossible. Even Turing has base GeForce legacy in there.
 

Lort

Banned
When it comes to these discussions about specific GPU capabilities .. please take it elsewhere ...

PS I am 100% right which is why no one has ever corrected me in this specifics GPU technicalities ( I can and have been wrong o other things!) .. so either go try then DM me evidence I’m wrong ?( and I’ll past it here myself) or just believe me and get on with your life.

let’s get back to the question at hand..

AMD RDNA 2 ray tracing

Or

Adshir

?
 
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Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
let’s get technical .. and we have covered this before...in games that use checkerboard such as Rainbow 6 ... the xbox one x has relatively more GPU throughput than just the GPU and mem bandwidth increases .. the xbox GPU therefor has better “optimizations” than the Ps 4 pro.

In summary neither have significant optimizations ... and I certainly didn’t say they came out at the same time or where the same price. They are the same node size though.. so my comparison is 100% relevant.

I’m sorry if the truth hurts but that’s just the way it is. If it makes you feel any better about accepting this know that I though the xbox focus on tv was lame .. and that their investment in the cloud whislt technically feasible was a failure.

The agility with which you dodge the point and try to turn the table around (forgetting how you went from the console war troll statement to a let’s get technical rational discussion angle) is mind blowing I will give you that.

So, you have established that a faster console is faster than a slower console... 🤯 (as if with extra development time you couldn’t fine tune your chip and push the manufacturing process further amongst other things as well and with higher MSRP you have more budget to allocate to a bigger and riskier silicon, etc... i.e.: context... :rolleyes:).

You are taking final performance devoid of any context as removing context suits your “PS4 Pro is a shit design” angle. Yes, we argued about this before, by the same token Xbox One X would be a shit design (it isn’t) when you compare it to Xbox Series X (“...and titles such as Halo Infinite will show the performance delta, IQ, etc... etc..”. that is the kind of argument you just made more or less).
 
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Lort

Banned
The agility with which you dodge the point and try to turn the table around (forgetting how you went from the console war troll statement to a let’s get technical rational discussion angle) is mind blowing I will give you that.

So, you have established that a faster console is faster than a slower console... 🤯 (as if with extra development time you couldn’t fine tune your chip and push the manufacturing process further amongst other things as well and with higher MSRP you have more budget to allocate to a bigger and riskier silicon, etc... i.e.: context... :rolleyes:).

You are taking final performance devoid of any context as removing context suits your “PS4 Pro is a shit design” angle. Yes, we argued about this before, by the same token Xbox One X would be a shit design (it isn’t) when you compare it to Xbox Series X (“...and titles such as Halo Infinite will show the performance delta, IQ, etc... etc..”. that is the kind of argument you just made more or less).

All your posting won’t make your ps4 pro go any faster.

or make checkerboard optimizations any less of an AMD invention ( not Cerny / Sony).
 
in the intro video to:
"AMD Financial Analyst Day 2020"
was a snipet about Xbox Series X
..... only Series X.... [nothing about ps5]
 
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JLB

Banned
why cant sony just shows ps5 specs? and even ms to some extent. Not that 99% of end users will care or even k ow what rdna is.
 
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