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American Gods |OT| You Had Me At Bryan Fuller - Sundays on Starz

I saw that whole thing as being a transference from one host to another.

From wikipedia:

An Ifrit appears in islamic lore also as a deathspirit, drawn to the lifeforce of the victim, and takes revenge on the murderer. Then he takes the shape of the murdered victim, he had at the moment of death.

It doesn't fit 100% (there's no murderer) but taking the form of another is a part of the mythology.
 

Ishan

Junior Member
Yes, they did, directly after the sex scene fades to black, you see Salim picking up the jinn's sweater and wallet/keys and get into his taxi.

You can infer he does that because his original stuff isn't there anymore.

Here's the excerpt from AV Club:
Okay I'm not white reasonably versed in other cultures and religions and I didn't see that at all. I sensed it as a one sided transaction . Not necessarily possession but definitely one sided do not see any swap etc . If anything it seemed like a wish given for a desperate person .
 

Ishan

Junior Member
I saw that whole thing as being a transference from one host to another.

From wikipedia:



It doesn't fit 100% (there's no murderer) but taking the form of another is a part of the mythology.
Yeah I don't see the swap element at all . Can see a one sided tradition definitely that's what I took out of it . This show is tho overcomplicating itself.
 

Siegcram

Member
No, you cannot infer that his stuff is missing because they do not show that his stuff is missing. If it is "obvious" to you, I'm willing to wager that you read the source material.

It very much reads as a possession, especially after the gay sex scene.

After seeing it, I was like "This is either a possession or a statement on generational wealth being passed down from one set of immigrants to the next?" and it turned out to be neither.
His shirt is on the floor when they kiss, it's not there in the morning. Neither is his briefcase which they make a big point of showing in the beginning.

The jinn even asks what he does and what's in the case. This really isn't rocket surgery.

And I read the book one 10 years ago and I only remember the broad strokes, not stuff like this. And like you can see above, reviewers picked up on it too.

It's the whole point of the scene how interchangeable and anonymous people like cab drivers are in a city like NYC, especially if they are a poc. If it were a transfer/posession scenario, then why would the driver's license look like someone completely different? It would have to look like the original jinn if it were simply hopping from host to host.
 

kirblar

Member
(many reviewers have read the books too)

You have multiple people virgin to the material telling you they were confused.

The answer to that criticism is not "you really shouldn't have been confused."
 

Shy

Member
I'm gonna go with some of the posts already in this thread and say three episodes in this show is still too obtuse . Plus shadow moon just going along with all this wackiness doesn't seem at all like a normal person would react . The only justification I can think of is loss of a close on so he just doesn't think/care .... But this show has one of the worst expositions for a major show .
As someone who started the show before starting the book.

I don't think the show is obtuse or bad at with it's exposition, at all.

As for Shadow, yeah i think he doesn't give a shit anymore.
 
To be honest it'd make way more sense to me if he just outright swapped identities. It'd tie into the whole thing about Gods (or supernatural beings in this case) having little problem with screwing over humans for their own selfish needs.
 

kirblar

Member
Most of the show's "wtf is going on" vaguery has been fine in context- the ending of the Egypt opener this ep was a great example of that. The ending w/ the guys was just clearly not that the type of deliberate mystery vaguery we've seen, as all the other vignettes had a clear ending.
 

Sir Doom

Member
I thought Laura would look more dirty and pale according to the books then again I guessshe travelled already

With the phase they are going through. This series should be done by season 2
 

royalan

Member
To me, Salim's missing clothes and his general confusion when he woke up made it clear he wasn't possessed by the Sexy Djinn.

But watching it, I didn't get the impression that they switched lives. To me it seemed like the fire cum turned Salim into a Djinn, which allowed this Djinn to move on...or something.

But it was pretty clear that possession didn't happen.
 

danm999

Member
You already know the show is about literal gods though because you follow threads here on NeoGAF.

If you didn't already know that, the show has done little to explain it during the first two episodes. You guys are going into this already knowing what to expect. For normal viewers, this shit doesn't make any sense at all. My wife was out after the first episode. She expected something to explain what was going on even a little bit. At least a hint, shit.

Hell, half the time I can barely understand what McShane is saying. He's one mumbling motherfucker.

Also the names. Russian hammer dude had a name? Lucy Ricardo isn't a god, but "Media?"

Show needs to explain itself.

For real? I haven't read the books buuuuut...

The show is called American Gods.

The title screen is a mix of religious iconography with modern concepts (astronaut crucified, Buddha with pharmaceuticals, etc).

The first two episodes had opening prologues with stories about how figures literally identified as gods were brought to America.

Characters actually identify themselves as leprechauns and djinns migrated from other parts of the world. One actually straight up says he's Anubis and leads someone to the afterlife after weighing their heart against a feather.

Characters openly speak about how acts of sacrifice, of worship, of devotion, of "time and attention, better than lamb's blood" make them stronger.

There's a character with one eye called Mr Wednesday who says he likes Nordic looking women who talks of his many powers.

I mean I'm not gonna pretend I know what everyone's plan is but damn it all if it isn't obvious what the basic conceit is.
 
I mean, I read the book and I also interpreted the Saleem story as
a possession story. I thought they might have changed it from the book
, that's how unclear it was.

Several smug book readers here, reminds me of the old GoT threads.
 

RS4-

Member
djinn was driving a cab for 30 years. Was tired of that shit. Don't think he'd possess the salesman and go back to driving.
 

SomTervo

Member
I vehemently disagree with the notion that the narrative is difficult to follow. Nothing has been explained in certain terms but it's entirely possible to glean from a number of the aforementioned conversations (Technical Boy, Media, etc.) the gist of what's going on.

Namely, there's a conflict. Technical Boy and Media (both of whom embrace technology, or appear to be some new, contemporary kind of divine) take issue with McShane's character who, from clues (the opening of episode one, his false eye and ability to fall asleep instantly) I gather to be Odin. Both he and Stormare's characters are old fashioned in a distinct way. They're like an old guard. McShane is convincing these old coots to ally and presumably fight those who side with Media and Tech dude. I don't know what the point of contention is, but I assume it has to do with either group's viability in the new, "American" world, and that they disagree with one another to such a point that it's come down to warfare. They've broken into factions.

Now I could be completely fucking off-base, but I'm confident in a number of my points. The show's written well enough that I'm as lost in it as Shadow but can glean enough from those who ought to know what's going on (McShane, Stormare, Anderson) that I maintain something of an idea of the series' central conflict. Enough to keep me watching.

Fuller and Co. may not be providing straight answers but I'm not just flailing out here in the ether. There's enough written into the dialogue that I have something to work with, inaccurate or no.

EDIT: I should mention I've read maybe twenty pages of the novel and remember little of it. So no spoilers from me, just speculation.

My post was based on being in a room with a bunch of people who are well read and well watched who basically were just confused and weren't enjoying it much beyond the spectacle.

I fully understood every scene and the context and while you can gleam hints of that from the tv narrative it's just not paced well so it's a rush.

It's not that we're "not given answers" - the book is the same - but that there isn't enough space between everything so it feels like a clisterfuck of weird details and weird scenes. The book hung a lot on the "Road trip" pace which feels pretty last here.

It feels like the Watchmen movie to me. Completely nails certain scenes and certain characters, but is so overproduced and weirdly paced that it doesn't work.

Again, Handmaid's Tale doing a far better job - although it does have a far more literal story.
 
As someone who started the show before starting the book.

I don't think the show is obtuse or bad at with it's exposition, at all.

As for Shadow, yeah i think he doesn't give a shit anymore.

The source material is notoriously bad with its exposition. It assumes a level a familiarity with the lore that may or may not be there, almost like Alan Moore's League of EG. And Wednesday is needlessly cryptic and obtuse with his explanations throughout, that never changes.

As of yet, I can't really recommend this show any more than Preacher.
 

SomTervo

Member
The source material is notoriously bad with its exposition. It assumes a level a familiarity with the lore that may or may not be there, almost like Alan Moore's League of EG. And Wednesday is needlessly cryptic and obtuse with his explanations throughout, that never changes.

As of yet, I can't really recommend this show any more than Preacher.

At least in the source material you get dragged along with multiple fleshed out character stories the whole time and the "road trip" narrative, besides the high-plot "god" stuff.

This show loses that and is just a montage of the "god stuff" key scenes that dont feel like they're given space to breathe.

In the book you don't need to know the lore stuff to keep going and it sort of gradually becomes clear - but the show is putting all onus on the lore stuff without having that time to let it all mature.

Admittedly i think Wednesday is fine though. Sweeney was brilliant too and that was a great scene to show the nature of these beings.

Still feel like only seeing Shadow in his "talking scenes" and giving him way too much screen time is the biggest problem. In the book there is so much time when he never says a word. He's like The Kid in Blood Meridian - he's never meant to be a core focal point; he's a stoic plot engine who gets very little characterisation. And that's the point. In the show he feels like a lame superhero.

PS even if i hadn't read the book i think I'd have the same complaints - they would just be framed more like "he's a weak character", the pacing doesn't match the plot, etc
 

royalan

Member
As someone who hasn't read the book, I'll admit that right now I'm watching the show for the vignettes and beautiful scenes.

I don't much care for the main plotline​, because they're being needlessly vague and slow. The whole thing with Wednesday and Shadow doesn't seem to be going anywhere interesting yet.
 

berzeli

Banned
Loved the book, not watching the show (because I can't reiterate often enough how terrible Amazon Video is) but just bless Bryan Fuller:
When American Gods showrunner Bryan Fuller first saw a cut of the epic gay-sex scene in Sunday’s episode, he didn’t mince words. “I was like, ‘Okay, unless he has a 12-inch, candy-cane cock and can fuck around corners, his dick’s not getting in him,” Fuller recalled. “So you guys need to go back and figure out where holes are.”

Courtesy of Vulture: Bryan Fuller Demanded a Reshoot of American Gods’ Gay Sex Scene Because It Wasn’t Gay Enough
 
I'm enjoying this show a lot. Really stylish, pretty unique, Ian McShane is great.

I have no familiarity with the source material, and haven't followed this thread or developments at all (apart from being aware because of Bryan Fuller).

People are complaining about a lack of exposition? Good, I like a bit of mystery and it's really not terribly hard to start piecing things together and getting an idea of where things are going (seemingly). This isn't David Lynch!
 

Monocle

Member
Loved the book, not watching the show (because I can't reiterate often enough how terrible Amazon Video is) but just bless Bryan Fuller:


Courtesy of Vulture: Bryan Fuller Demanded a Reshoot of American Gods’ Gay Sex Scene Because It Wasn’t Gay Enough
I swear I almost jumped up and cheered. Finally a showrunner who's interested in representing gay sexuality without hangups or sensationalism. It's almost enough to make me feel like a regular human.

As someone who hasn't read the book, I'll admit that right now I'm watching the show for the vignettes and beautiful scenes.

I don't much care for the main plotline​, because they're being needlessly vague and slow. The whole thing with Wednesday and Shadow doesn't seem to be going anywhere interesting yet.
The show is going about the same way the book was going at this stage, with the added benefit of great actors, cool visuals, and dicks ahoy. The plot should become a lot clearer fairly soon, unless this season takes its time to get to a certain pivotal event.

That said, it shouldn't be difficult to infer the general parameters of the show's world, and who and what most of the characters are.

Honestly, if I can place myself in the position of a non-book reader, the main mysteries at this point should be what's Mr. Wednesday up to, and why is Shadow still tagging along with him. The answer to the first question is coming. There's already been some heavy hints.

As for what Shadow's deal is, the rug has just been pulled out from under him. He's an ex-con who thought he had a wife and a job to go back to until his world turned upside down. So he's drifting, and Wednesday is the only real source of stability and direction in his life. Plus, if it wasn't obvious, there's a certain grudging affection at play there. Wednesday is like an irrepressible dirty uncle. And Wednesday's world might be weird, but it's also intriguing. A man like Shadow who has nothing and believes in nothing could do worse.
 

SomTervo

Member
As someone who hasn't read the book, I'll admit that right now I'm watching the show for the vignettes and beautiful scenes.

I don't much care for the main plotline​, because they're being needlessly vague and slow. The whole thing with Wednesday and Shadow doesn't seem to be going anywhere interesting yet.

That's the weird thing - as much as I'm heavily criticising the show, and i don't think it's very good, I'm also compelled to see what happens next and how they portray/explain certain concepts. There's something to it.

It feels like a Netflix binge show that's being shown weekly.

True. As much as HT is also a bit flawed, releasing 3 at a time is a pretty nice balance
 
It feels like a Netflix binge show that's being shown weekly.
I've been struggling to figure out how I feel about the show and I think you hit the nail on the head. I really like all of the scenes for their art. But, the plot is moving so slow that it feels like I should be watching a bunch of episodes in a row.
 

Zoe

Member
Put me in the camp of not knowing the Jinn took his place. When the fire dick happened, I thought it was some kind of magical transference or later the Jinn granting his wish and vanishing into thin air.

Edit: he also left his sunglasses behind
 

hydruxo

Member
Any book readers notice
the glimpses of Mr. World in the bank cameras
in episode 3?

The eye when it shuts off as Shadow & Wednesday leave, and the silhouette of the man with the top hat in the corner.
 
Sometimes its also about the journey and not only the destination.
Agreed. It certainly isn't the traditional plot structure, but I like being along for the ride just like Shadow. The world-building, the vignettes, the imagery, and the characters are so enjoyable that they carry the show even as the overarching plot gradually develops
 

jph139

Member
The djinn shows up briefly in episode two wearing the same baby blue suit that the salesman had, which further illustrates the swap. Not really something you'd notice if you weren't looking out for it, though.
 
-Anubis opener was great, yet more excellent music for the show.

-Perhaps they have a proper erect penis quota of some sort, as you'd think the Djinn's scene would've been at least as ample a reason to re-deploy it as the earlier bit of dick pics....? Definitely the most magical gay I've seen on TV, music and all to spectacle...at least on the live action side of the western world.

Excellent episode---the streak is unbroken!
 

SomTervo

Member
Sometimes its also about the journey and not only the destination.
This is very true. This is basically a road trip in Mythological America, so yep, it's very about the journey.


Yes, but where the book conveyed a compelling journey and slow adventure, the TV show is not. It felt like there was all the time in the world for Wednesday and shadow in the text - not so here. Feels like a rush.

Read the book 10+ years ago.

I don't remember Shadow talking this much.

I think the lines are accurate, but in the book there was loads more space where he said nothing.

He's not a talkative character - he's meant to be a figment, a Shadow. Show is really fucking with that vibe and i don't think it works.

I don't remember him laughing at any point in the book
 

SomTervo

Member
The more i think about it the more this feels like if Zack Snyder made a tv show

So much post-prod and pomp and shine and technicolour with pretty much no heart

I'm fine with the journey. I'm enjoying everything happening around the main plot.

The main plot just hasn't gotten to an interesting place yet.

The book does a great job of putting the onus directly on the situation Shadow is dragged into. You don't even get a hint at the politics for ages. There's loads of meandering, added details about little places they go, places they see, what it's like to traverse the USA, other little conversations. It's genuine good just as a road trip.

The show is pushing the big stuff early without having given it time to breathe so it's not carrying much meaning, just lots of flashy graphics and designs (which are pretty great of themselves).

Hopefully it does really come together.

How many episodes is this season? If it's just 8 i can imagine they had a hard time squeezing it all in
 

jett

D-Member
Man way too many book spoilers in here. Not everyone has read the book, you know. I think someone may have revealed Mr Wednesday's identity, unless they were just kidding. :p
 

SomTervo

Member
Man way too many book spoilers in here. Not everyone has read the book, you know. I think someone may have revealed Mr Wednesday's identity, unless they were just kidding. :p

I've deffo not - but if it seems like i have quote the post number and I'll spoiler tag anyway
 
Man way too many book spoilers in here. Not everyone has read the book, you know. I think someone may have revealed Mr Wednesday's identity, unless they were just kidding. :p

People have been open spoiling that since episode one. If you really care about spoilers better leave the thread (I already got spoiled so I don't give a fuck anymore).
 

SomTervo

Member
People have been open spoiling that since episode one. If you really care about spoilers better leave the thread (I already got spoiled so I don't give a fuck anymore).

At least the nice thing about AmGods is even if you know the facts, the nuance of the lore and how they get it across should be v interesting to watch.
 

royalan

Member
Also, while we're on the subject of the writers not really nailing the tone and pacing...

Was the girlfriend reveal at the end supposed to be a big deal? I mean, they've been making it pretty obvious she's still around since the graveyard scene.

The lead-up to that final shot made it seem like the writers thought that was supposed to be some big revelation.
 

Jag

Member
I think someone may have revealed Mr Wednesday's identity, unless they were just kidding. :p

Someone did, but the show hasn't been trying to hide it if you have even minimal knowledge of
a particular ancient pantheon
. Also (semi spoiler)
Czernobog calls him Wotan
 

Siegcram

Member
Also, while we're on the subject of the writers not really nailing the tone and pacing...

Was the girlfriend reveal at the end supposed to be a big deal? I mean, they've been making it pretty obvious she's still around since the graveyard scene.

The lead-up to that final shot made it seem like the writers thought that was supposed to be some big revelation.
I mean it is for Shadow. We had the graveyard and Sweeny scenes, but Shadow wasn't part of any of that.

Also her physical and mental status was in question for both the audience and Shadow. So her being apparently fine in both respects subverted people expecting a Zombie/Ghoul/whatever.
 

Veelk

Banned
I first read the book with basically no knowledge of mythology beyond really basic, so most of the hints for everything few over my head. At most, I'd catch the odd name or two and go "I heard that before! Somewhere!" But I didn't see Mr. Wednesdays true identity coming.

If I can make it through the book with basic understanding of whats going on despite that, anyone can.

Edit: regarding the Salim-Djinn segment, I came across another interpretation of the scene.

What the Djinn did was grant Salim a wish. Salim was in a life he found miserable. Perhaps you can say that the fire exchange was how he granted the wish, even if the means themselves were mundane rather than magical and that it was mutually beneficial since the Djinn didn't like being a taxi driver either. But never the less, Salim's wish (maybe wishes, if we're also counting his night of passion) was granted and he was a salesman no more.
 
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