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American Gods |OT| You Had Me At Bryan Fuller - Sundays on Starz

SomTervo

Member
I first read the book with basically no knowledge of mythology beyond really basic, so most of the hints for everything few over my head. At most, I'd catch the odd name or two and go "I heard that before! Somewhere!" But I didn't see Mr. Wednesdays true identity coming.

If I can make it through the book with basic understanding of whats going on despite that, anyone can.

The poster above is suggesting it's easy to guess Wed's identify

And the show so far is way more confusing and weirdly paced than the book (not least because the book's narrative works without all the politics, while the show is entirely about those politics, it seems)
 

Veelk

Banned
The poster above is suggesting it's easy to guess Wed's identify

And the show so far is way more confusing and weirdly paced than the book (not least because the book's narrative works without all the politics, while the show is entirely about those politics, it seems)

Eh, hardly entirely. The "Coming to America" bits have all been modernized, which is as it should be since there is no point to pretending cultures worked like they did back then.

But Shadow's story seems largely the same. The only major change is how Technoboy went from a fat loser to a rich, spoiled brat vaping while anonymous goons try to lynch Shadow. Which, again, makes sense. Perspectives on what a tech savvy person have changed and the fat loser is a dead stereotype, and the dangers of the internet are different now.

The show was always about American culture. It just means something different now than it did then. If American Gods is adapted into another show 20 years from now, it will have to adapt to culture then as well. Which makes this show in itself mythological in a way. There is no 'canon' to mythology, there is no one true way to tell any story, just the most relevant way, and that depends on both who is telling and when and where they're telling it.
 

Blackhead

Redarse
I'm also in the camp who has read the book (albeit I can't recall much specifics not even if i read the extended edition) but I agree that the djinn resolution was unclear. That said :
And unlike the novel, this scene isn't a standalone: Everyone involved promises that there will be more of both characters before the season is through.
I assume once the characters reappear it will be obvious what occurred.

I'm ambivalent. I think the show would be better if it had a formal structure with all 'God lore' in the intro/before the credits and then everything after that is strictly modern day plot. the intercutting lessens the impact
 

Jag

Member
Could say it's Genie-us



I think the fraction of people who have that "minimal knowledge" is next to none

Then it must be much higher here in the US. Outside of people who read GAF and maybe some history and/or fantasy, I don't think most people would get it. I had to tell my wife (who's much smarter than me) who Wed was. She didn't get any of the subtle hints.
 

Meier

Member
Yep, it sure was!

I was thinking something along the lines of-- hey, good to see him getting work, it'll be nice to see him in this....

and before I'm half done thinking about it...

My wife was all excited because I guess Scott had been hyping up that he'd be in episode 3 and then there he was and then there he wasn't.
 
Then it must be much higher here in the US. Outside of people who read GAF and maybe some history and/or fantasy, I don't think most people would get it. I had to tell my wife (who's much smarter than me) who Wed was. She didn't get any of the subtle hints.
Yeah, I don't think the average viewer know about the etymology of the days of the week, which is like the biggest most blatant clue.
 

Meier

Member
Next to none? I mean maybe it's different here in Europe, but the name Wotan should ring a lot of bells....

Honestly, I would guess maybe 1% of Americans are familiar with the name Wotan. With that being said, I'm amazed people haven't looked at Wikipedia and learned Wednesday's identity. I don't really think it lessens anything at all.. his more traditional name is well known here.
 

jett

D-Member
Someone did, but the show hasn't been trying to hide it if you have even minimal knowledge of
a particular ancient pantheon
. Also (semi spoiler)
Czernobog calls him Wotan

I'm a casual fan of mythology in general but that's an obscure reference. I guess I would've spoiled myself if I had wiki'd that name, heh.
 

hydruxo

Member
I'm also in the camp who has read the book (albeit I can't recall much specifics not even if i read the extended edition) but I agree that the djinn resolution was unclear. That said :


I assume once the characters reappear it will be obvious what occurred.

I'm ambivalent. I think the show would be better if it had a formal structure with all 'God lore' in the intro/before the credits and then everything after that is strictly modern day plot. the intercutting lessens the impact

The thing is, there are tons of the Coming to America & Somewhere in America vignettes in the book, and there simply isn't enough room to put them only in the intro. I don't find that they lessen the impact at all. Maybe that'll change as the plot gets going more, but they've done a good job of putting the vignettes in during periods of downtime in the main plot.
 

Meier

Member
From what I've heard, the 4th episode is where they finally explain WTF is going on, so I guess that'll help. I'm always amazed though at people who just can entirely ignore the context of a show getting made. The overarching concept has been openly discussed for the past few years so there should be some level of obviousness but if you entirely missed everything and don't read anything about it, I can sort of see why you'd be in the dark.

With that being said, there were a shitload of complaints and tons of confusion about GOT early on and obviously people adjusted over time and learned the many characters and places so I'm sure by the time the 2nd season of this rolls around it won't even be a footnote.
 

SomTervo

Member
Eh, hardly entirely. The "Coming to America" bits have all been modernized, which is as it should be since there is no point to pretending cultures worked like they did back then.

But Shadow's story seems largely the same. The only major change is how Technoboy went from a fat loser to a rich, spoiled brat vaping while anonymous goons try to lynch Shadow. Which, again, makes sense. Perspectives on what a tech savvy person have changed and the fat loser is a dead stereotype, and the dangers of the internet are different now.

The show was always about American culture. It just means something different now than it did then. If American Gods is adapted into another show 20 years from now, it will have to adapt to culture then as well. Which makes this show in itself mythological in a way. There is no 'canon' to mythology, there is no one true way to tell any story, just the most relevant way, and that depends on both who is telling and when and where they're telling it.

You're missing the point of my criticism.

Most of the show's actual content is fine - good, even, in some parts - it's the execution i take issue with. Pacing's off, visuals are too much, music is too much.

All the scenes in it so far are in the novel - but loads have been cut. Indeed, many of the cut scenes or moments aren't plot crucial - but they ARE pacing/narrative crucial, glueing together the experience and Shadow's journey. That is not coming through in this show.

Also people I've spoken to who haven't read the book are super confused by the backstory/political players. They piece together little ideas but the show just keeps barraging you with more so it's hard to get a grip on it.

Next to none? I mean maybe it's different here in Europe, but the name Wotan should ring a lot of bells....

Really? I studied English literature (covering a lot of adaptations of international and historical works) and it literally never came up.

Like, i worked out who he was on first read, but not because of that name. And all the characters are relatively nebulous anyway.
 

Jocund

Member
I fully understood every scene and the context and while you can gleam hints of that from the tv narrative it's just not paced well so it's a rush.

It's not that we're "not given answers" - the book is the same - but that there isn't enough space between everything so it feels like a clisterfuck of weird details and weird scenes. The book hung a lot on the "Road trip" pace which feels pretty last here.

It feels like the Watchmen movie to me. Completely nails certain scenes and certain characters, but is so overproduced and weirdly paced that it doesn't work.

Again, Handmaid's Tale doing a far better job - although it does have a far more literal story.

Okay. I agree with everything you say here. There's no shame in taking time and I do wish the show did this more. It does feel like a series of crazy sketches of scenes and not a super paced narrative. I do enjoy the ride so far, though.

As much as I enjoy Fuller's imagery, so far that IS the show, and I don't know for how long the series can sustain itself on flashiness alone.

I really need to get Hulu -- I've read great things about their original programming as of late.
 

SomTervo

Member
Okay. I agree with everything you say here. There's no shame in taking time and I do wish the show did this more. It does feel like a series of crazy sketches of scenes and not a super paced narrative. I do enjoy the ride so far, though.

As much as I enjoy Fuller's imagery, so far that IS the show, and I don't know for how long the series can sustain itself on flashiness alone.

I really need to get Hulu -- I've read great things about their original programming as of late.

Yeah, it's a pity because when reading the novel i literally thought "this will be a better tv show than a book".

But the tv adaptation i had in mind was a slow paced thing, more like a plodding and not-very-stylised work that felt more realist. Ala The Wire or something. I pictured like a full episode of prison and leaving the prison. I pictured the point we're at in the story by episode 3 being like episode 7 or 8.

Fuller's vision is still a good ride though, for sure.
 

Blackhead

Redarse
The thing is, there are tons of the Coming to America & Somewhere in America vignettes in the book, and there simply isn't enough room to put them only in the intro. I don't find that they lessen the impact at all. Maybe that'll change as the plot gets going more, but they've done a good job of putting the vignettes in during periods of downtime in the main plot.

  • There's not tons and they're even writing up a bunch extra just for the show.
  • Put it some in the end credits. wherever. just separate it from the plot.
  • This is Starz; there are no ad breaks and they can structure the episode however they want. They could put two or three stories before the opening intro if that's necessary.
I think it lessens the impacts as 'myths' or 'story telling' if they are interspersed between the plot, especially if they turn some of them into continuing narratives like as said for the djinn one.
 
Just finished episode 3. Gotta say, I love everything about this show so far. Wish I didn't have to wait a week for each new episode. Also have to point out how amazing the visuals and music/audio are in this. Really beautiful stuff.

Regarding the end of episode 3,
did the coin bring her back to life or something?
 
My wife was all excited because I guess Scott had been hyping up that he'd be in episode 3 and then there he was and then there he wasn't.

I didn't realize until I read this thread that he was in Hannibal.

I pretty much love seeing any of the old KitH gang anywhere, even when the material's not great.
 

hydruxo

Member
  • There's not tons and they're even writing up a bunch extra just for the show.
  • Put it some in the end credits. wherever. just separate it from the plot.
  • This is Starz; there are no ad breaks and they can structure the episode however they want. They could put two or three stories before the opening intro if that's necessary.
I think it lessens the impacts as 'myths' or 'story telling' if they are interspersed between the plot, especially if they turn some of them into continuing narratives like as said for the djinn one.

Putting it in the end credits makes zero sense. This isn't a Marvel movie.

It being in the middle of the episode is perfectly fine, you're overreacting about it affecting the plot.
 
Yeah, Wotan was what did it for me, I'd say the name is reasonably well known, even if you are not intimately acquainted with Richard Wagner

And I hate to be that guy, but how do they do the dicks in this show. I mean the erect ones have to be CGI or prosthetics, but can they actually show fll frontal nudity on TV in the US? Or are they prosthetics as well, because the Ifrit guy was something else ...
 
And I hate to be that guy, but how do they do the dicks in this show. I mean the erect ones have to be CGI or prosthetics, but can they actually show fll frontal nudity on TV in the US? Or are they prosthetics as well, because the Ifrit guy was something else ...

Yes they can show full frontal on premium channels. I think erections pose a greater difficulty because apparently it registers closer to the pornographic, but they seem to have gotten around it by making it more than just an opportunity to arouse audiences.
 
Oh, and the opening with Anubis was​ really well done. The opening scenes so far have all been absolutely amazing.

I was also confused about what happened with Salim and the djinn. I thought the djinn took over Salim's body, and real Salim is now gone.

Edit:
I'm also in the camp who has read the book (albeit I can't recall much specifics not even if i read the extended edition) but I agree that the djinn resolution was unclear. That said :


I assume once the characters reappear it will be obvious what occurred.
Ah, well that helps clear it up then.
 
The djinn scene can be interpreted at least three different ways and that is perfectly fine. It's good to leave things open sometimes. The djinn is going to show up later if I recall correctly (in new content created specifically for the show) that will hopefully explain things more.
 

Vic_Viper

Member
Gotta say, if you werent invested in American Gods before ithe show started, I dont think you would still be watching the show lol. If you had never heard of Neil Gaiman or read anything by him theres no way you would still be watching after 3 episodes without almost no plot development. I mean even the main character Shadow still has no idea what is going on and they expect the viewers to be able to understand!? This latest episode was almost 50% random stories like Anubis and whatever that Djinn scene was.

I havent read the book, but im aware of the overall story. I love the visual style though and im sure the show runners know what they are doing. This show probably could have done alot better as a Netflix show since you would have the entire series released together instead of having to wait each week.
 
Wherever he is, that Djinn needs to reappear at my house.

Because...Um...Yeah...
That entire sequence, from the gentle touch of the hand in the cab to the explosion of fiery ejaculate, was simply stunning.

And that's not even getting into the subtext of cultural invisibility, assimilation, etc. etc. that so expertly pervaded it.

And a kissing scene between two older folks not played for laughs or stripped of all passion either! This show is revolutionary on the basis alone of its portrayals of sex, desire, and love.
 

Blackhead

Redarse
Putting it in the end credits makes zero sense. This isn't a Marvel movie.

It being in the middle of the episode is perfectly fine, you're overreacting about it affecting the plot.
agree to disagree.
anyway there's barely a plot so far; it'll become more pronounced when the action picks up

And I hate to be that guy, but how do they do the dicks in this show. I mean the erect ones have to be CGI or prosthetics, but can they actually show fll frontal nudity on TV in the US? Or are they prosthetics as well, because the Ifrit guy was something else ...
well not many mainstream actors are willing to show their actual penis on screen. That ifrit guy was cgi by the way
 

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
Lol, I was wondering about the dong drop in this episode. My first reaction was "Whoa. Good for him."
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Read the book 10+ years ago.

I don't remember Shadow talking this much.

He's more loquacious here yeah.

I have never seen so much serious discussion about fire jizz before.
laugh.gif


I see three interpretations for Salim and the Jinn

1) Salim is possessed by the jinn. We've seen gods be, if not outright malicious, then amoral concerning humans. Salim also receives the jinn's fire and his eyes burn for a moment during the desert black glass sex session
2) Salim and the jinn trade places. You'd know this if you read the book. Salim also wakes up more or less Salim with the same mild mannered bemusement on his face. It seems like he genuinely wonders where his jinn lover went which contradicts with outright possession
3) The jinn somehow infuses his essence (L U L) into Salim and disappears. Fits the lore of the jinn somewhat, the fate of the jinn is unclear but Salim's "survival" is definitely clear. Somewhat alluded to by Salim adopting the jinn's mannerisms and clothing and identity.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
The book, and this show I guess, expect you to, if not be familiar with pagan mythology, then at least to be interested in them so that you'll look them up in additional material. American Gods is one of my favorite books precisely for easing me into the world of pre-Christian human mythology.

But I accept that this won't be true for the vast majority of readers/viewers. I don't see it as a flaw so much as it targeting a narrow subset of readers and now a narrow subset of TV viewers. Whether the exposition-light nature of the story is appropriate/inappropriate for a semi-mainstream TV show is up for debate, I think there's value in challenging viewers with ambiguity and mystery even if it inevitably reduces its potential audience with its inaccessibility.
 

Matt

Member
Yes they can show full frontal on premium channels. I think erections pose a greater difficulty because apparently it registers closer to the pornographic, but they seem to have gotten around it by making it more than just an opportunity to arouse audiences.
There are only legal restrictions on the content of broadcast tv channels in the US. Any cable channel (not just "premium") can show basically whatever they want. ESPN can play full hardcore gay sex if they so choose.
 
If people are confused, then they're confused. I don't see any real reason to tell people not to be -- it's an obtuse book, and therefore, an obtuse series from two people who seem to revel in a niche clientele. That's fine! It's not going to be for everyone.
 

SomTervo

Member
If people are confused, then they're confused. I don't see any real reason to tell people not to be -- it's an obtuse book, and therefore, an obtuse series from two people who seem to revel in a niche clientele. That's fine! It's not going to be for everyone.

Nah.

The book wasn't obtuse - not narratively. Its lore was obtuse, but you could still follow what happened. It was well paced, Shadow's journey and the various mini stories were compelling in their own right.

The tv show takes that obtuse lore then minces the book's narrative flow and pace, making it an obtuse story told obtusely, rather than an obtuse story well told.

The tv show still has space though, might get really good
 

Theorry

Member
I am enjoying the show. But i have a feeling i am not getting everything out of it just because of my knowledge of Old Gods. I mean had no idea that the guy in the beginning was Anubis. I mean i "know" Anubis but thats it really.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
I am enjoying the show. But i have a feeling i am not getting everything out of it just because of my knowledge of Old Gods. I mean had no idea that the guy in the beginning was Anubis. I mean i "know" Anubis but thats it really.

Well it's not clear he's Anubis until Mrs. Fadil says so.

But yeah I guess most people wouldn't know he's the Egyptian god of death or the deal with the scales although I always thought the scales were pretty pop-culture Egyptian mythology. The "Du'at" is new to me though, as well as "tita" (which is supposed to be a grandmother figure?) so I'm learning as I go as well.
 

Zoe

Member
Well it's not clear he's Anubis until Mrs. Fadil says so.

But yeah I guess most people wouldn't know he's the Egyptian god of death or the deal with the scales although I always thought the scales were pretty pop-culture Egyptian mythology.

I can't be the only one who watched this??

lkS3lKE.jpg
 
Well it's not clear he's Anubis until Mrs. Fadil says so.

But yeah I guess most people wouldn't know he's the Egyptian god of death or the deal with the scales although I always thought the scales were pretty pop-culture Egyptian mythology. The "Du'at" is new to me though, as well as "tita" (which is supposed to be a grandmother figure?) so I'm learning as I go as well.

Tita is just a kinda modern word for grandmother, and it's actually pronounced differently than how they said it in the show. Even as an Egyptian I was confused by it at first.
 

kirblar

Member
If people are confused, then they're confused. I don't see any real reason to tell people not to be -- it's an obtuse book, and therefore, an obtuse series from two people who seem to revel in a niche clientele. That's fine! It's not going to be for everyone.
The Djinn scene is confusing in a way the rest of the series isn't. "Confused in general" is fine given that the series is deliberately obtuse/journey-focused, etc. But the lack of clarity w/ the ending to the Djinn vignette left me confused in a way that came off as an error in the editing bay, rather than a creative choice.
 
I'm a casual fan of mythology in general but that's an obscure reference. I guess I would've spoiled myself if I had wiki'd that name, heh.

Sorry, but even a casual fan of mythology would know the name Wotan or tve etymology of the days if the week.
 
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