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Angry Video Game Nerd
- Thread starter demi
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Linkzg said:
Did you have a subscription to Nintendo Power? Friends? Strategy Guides?
maharg said:
Again, why is this criticism bad just because Zelda had it?
I mean, think about, Nintendo changed it right? They decided that having such obscure puzzles was a bad thing, so they gave players those "hints" in LTTP, right?
I think it's stupid that he'll make some very valid criticisms of games and people will attack him for it. His Simon's Quest review is a perfect example.
Just because a game is old or revolutionary doesn't excuse it for bad design.
Who here thinks Birth of a Nation is a great movie?
ZealousD said:
I just think it's pretty ridiculous to criticize a game from 20 years ago on the basis that all the evolution that happened after it had already happened. Games on the NES were like that. The reviews become pointless when they focus on common elements of all games from the time.
Your Birth of a Nation is an absolutely absurd comparison. Is this game suddenly one that spawned people in white blankets who thought hanging black people was a good idea? How does that comparison even work at all?
People sure as hell think Citizen Kane is a great movie. And it is. Same for Casablanca (which imo holds up far better than Citizen Kane). I'm not saying this game in particular is one of those. But Zelda or Metroid are. They broke new ground and created genres, evolved the industry. Games like *this one* didn't evolve the industry, but neither did they take it a step backwards.
If you want a film analogy that makes sense, I come to Angry Video Game Nerd to see Plan 9 From Outer Space get ripped a new one. I want MST2k. When I get forgotten-generic-movie/game-number-1000 that's kind of boring. Oh boo hoo wah wah the puzzler-platformer is so hard wah wah is just a little on the lame side when it's clear you can actually get around in the game, it provides you with a reasonable degree of tools as compared to games of its time, etc.
Maybe the reason people complain about his reviews of games like this is because there's actually something to complain about.
I used Birth of a Nation because it's clearly a product of its era. Birth of a Nation was wrong for promoting racism, which can't be excused because of its era. Milon's Secret Castle was wrong for making solutions as obscure and secretive as possible, which shouldn't be excused because of its era.
If you want a less extreme example, what about The Great Train Robbery? I doubt many people call it one of the greatest films of all time, but some people might say the same about the original Zelda or Metroid.
And Milon's Secret Castle is different from hard. Throwing bubbles at every pixel in the game isn't hard, it's cheap trial and error.
If you want a less extreme example, what about The Great Train Robbery? I doubt many people call it one of the greatest films of all time, but some people might say the same about the original Zelda or Metroid.
And Milon's Secret Castle is different from hard. Throwing bubbles at every pixel in the game isn't hard, it's cheap trial and error.
Cow Mengde
Banned
That's part of the joke of AVGN. He started it because he thought no one gives a damn about a game from 20 years ago.
ShinHayase
Member
Cow Mengde said:
This needs to be quoted because it is awesome in so many ways.
Zelda and Metroid succeeded because, despite their NES-era driven design issues, they were executed extremely well and they did more right then they did wrong. Zelda in particular had excellent combat mechanics from the getgo and was never particularly hard outside of the second quest, which was designed specifically for that purpose.
Hell, almost every single bombable area in the original first quest is completely and totally optional, the notable exception being most all of level 9, which is, you know, the last level. Now, perhaps there was some difficulty for young gamers to put together in their minds that they needed to bomb some dungeon walls and passages would appear, which I guess would be a source of tedium. Still, there are two things to consider: 1) Despite being in limited supply, bombs are droppable in moderate quantities, and are not at all expensive in most shops anyway, and 2) There's far less opportunity for error in a game like Zelda, not least of which because the game generally does a good job of letting you know that you missed something. For example, level 5 contains, from what I see, the first instance of a required bombable wall; this is needed to get the flute. Level 5 is NOT beatable without the flute; you can't beat Digdogger without it. This, combined with the fact that the game gives you an easy way to cross reference which rooms you've already visited with the rooms specified on the map on the top-left corner, lets the player know "oh shit, I haven't been to those rooms yet, I should find a way to get to those rooms and maybe I'll be able to beat this boss! This is notable because this particular instance also gives the player the knowledge that bombable walls are a necessary component of this level and then, logically, later levels as well. Not coincidentally, the frequency of required bombable areas increases from there.
The most important aspect is that Zelda follows a very strictly-adhered to structure. Blocks are meant to be pushed. Walls are meant to be bombed. Closed shutter doors usually mean you have to kill all enemies. Armos's on the overworld reveal secrets when they are touched. Rocky areas of the overworld are bombed. Trees are burned with candles. single-tile water areas require the ladder. Gohma is killed by arrows. Digdogger is made vulnerable by the flute. All shops contain 3 items and are the same every time. The game very rarely deviates from these standards, and this goes a long way toward making its seemingly obscure logic solvable; the player learns how each component of the game's world is supposed to behave, which lowers the level trial and error needed.
There's a reason why Zelda was properly elevated to its elite status in game design. And it was certainly no accident. Milon's Secret Castle is not Zelda, and is a proper example of what happens when Zelda-like game design goes wrong.
Hell, almost every single bombable area in the original first quest is completely and totally optional, the notable exception being most all of level 9, which is, you know, the last level. Now, perhaps there was some difficulty for young gamers to put together in their minds that they needed to bomb some dungeon walls and passages would appear, which I guess would be a source of tedium. Still, there are two things to consider: 1) Despite being in limited supply, bombs are droppable in moderate quantities, and are not at all expensive in most shops anyway, and 2) There's far less opportunity for error in a game like Zelda, not least of which because the game generally does a good job of letting you know that you missed something. For example, level 5 contains, from what I see, the first instance of a required bombable wall; this is needed to get the flute. Level 5 is NOT beatable without the flute; you can't beat Digdogger without it. This, combined with the fact that the game gives you an easy way to cross reference which rooms you've already visited with the rooms specified on the map on the top-left corner, lets the player know "oh shit, I haven't been to those rooms yet, I should find a way to get to those rooms and maybe I'll be able to beat this boss! This is notable because this particular instance also gives the player the knowledge that bombable walls are a necessary component of this level and then, logically, later levels as well. Not coincidentally, the frequency of required bombable areas increases from there.
The most important aspect is that Zelda follows a very strictly-adhered to structure. Blocks are meant to be pushed. Walls are meant to be bombed. Closed shutter doors usually mean you have to kill all enemies. Armos's on the overworld reveal secrets when they are touched. Rocky areas of the overworld are bombed. Trees are burned with candles. single-tile water areas require the ladder. Gohma is killed by arrows. Digdogger is made vulnerable by the flute. All shops contain 3 items and are the same every time. The game very rarely deviates from these standards, and this goes a long way toward making its seemingly obscure logic solvable; the player learns how each component of the game's world is supposed to behave, which lowers the level trial and error needed.
There's a reason why Zelda was properly elevated to its elite status in game design. And it was certainly no accident. Milon's Secret Castle is not Zelda, and is a proper example of what happens when Zelda-like game design goes wrong.
Cow Mengde
Banned
jman2050 said:
Please stop making sense. You're hurting the rest of Gaf's heads. If you use any more logic, heads will explode here.
rollingstart
Banned
ZealousD said:
in the old days, me and my friends played sports (...) but I did have a subscription to Nintendo Power. It was probably that.
needlesmcgirk
Member
I really can't believe you guys are attacking his criticism of a game like this. Some of you dudes are way too anal about shit. Its just a video that's supposed to be funny.
Jaded Alyx
Member
Yup. James has said time and time again that these '"reviews" are purely for entertainment purposes and he often exaggerates his criticisms for laughs.needlesmcgirk said:
A Black Falcon
Member
Ifrit said:
Absolutely agreed, Rolling Thunder is a fantastic game, and series... I loved that arcade game, and the NES and Genesis versions (of 1 and 2 in particular) are just as great. Slow paced, but very, very good... but it's just in the intro, not in a full video. I won't complain about it being there unless he actually makes a video attacking it.
jman2050 said:
Sure, but it did have some hidden dungeons, particularly in the (optional, admittedly) Second Quest. And Metroid... yeah, that's horribly confusing without a printed map, that's for sure!
In my opinion, Zelda 1 (and to a lesser extent 2 and 3) and Metroid (1, maybe 2, Super to a lesser extent) DO have these elements in them. NES Metroid and Zelda pretty obviously have them, but when I played SNES Zelda and Metroid (both in the last couple of years), I ran into some of those elements in both of those games as well, and it definitely frustrated me and made me like both games a bit less than I otherwise would have. I had to use FAQs in various points in both games, for things I never would have guessed how to find (or even that I needed them)... and the NES games are far worse.
However, none of those come even close to being as random as Milon's Secret Castle. It's the same problem, sure, but Metroid and Zelda are definitely not on that level of annoyance, not even close.
ZealousD said:
I found LttP not nearly as much improved on these matters as you suggest. Yes, they improved things hugely when compared to the first game, but there are absolutely still randomly hidden items that you must get to finish the game, and I found that element of the game really, really frustrating. Link's Awakening and beyond do not have any of these elements, or if they do they're extremely minimal in comparison.
Examples of things in LttP that I had to use an FAQ to find, because I didn't know I didn't need them until I got stuck and had no idea what to do next:
-Getting into the Swamp of Sorrows
-Finding Bombos Medallion and Book of Mudora (I think)
-Finding Quake Medallion
-Finding Ether Medallion (I stopped playing the game for like a year after getting stuck at the point where you need this... it doesn't say what it is, it doesn't say where to find it... without a guide I'd NEVER have known where to look (on the opposite side of the map) for this stupid thing...)
-Finding Ice Rod (or even just telling you that the Ice Rod exists and you need it, they don't even bother to do that! I got to the boss of Turtle Rock, only to get stuck there and have to find in an FAQ that I needed an item which I didn't know existed... thanks for telling me about it beforehand! So I had to go out, get it, and then redo the whole dungeon... argh!)
-Silver Arrows -- They only tell you about them AFTER you get them, and they're hidden well. Um... thanks. How, exactly, was I supposed to know about the Super Bomb?
Now, maybe if you play the game differently, taking the time to explore every screen thoroughly and do everything possible in every area before moving on, you won't get stuck at any of these points... but a good game doesn't rely on that, it helps you find the things you need to complete the game. While much better than Zelda 1 on this, LttP still had some real problems in this regard.
On the Swamp of Sorrows evidently there were a couple of clues towards how to get warping on your flute, but I missed them at the time, and didn't get to the Swamp of Sorrows for a long, long time afterwards... by which point I had completely forgotten about the whole affair. You need to warp to get to the Swamp, okay, I could guess that... but how to get there? You need warping on your flute, and to get that you need to play the flute before the statue in town? Um... right. But at least there I think there were clues (in the form of a couple lines from the people in town)... though given that usually the people in town are entirely useless and say nothing interesting (I thought that they have less character and are less interesting than the people in any Zelda game since, though obviously it's a huge improvement when compared to the first game), having them matter in this one case and not in much of anything else is kind of annoying. But in the rest of the things on that list, is there any such defense?
Link's Awakening, the first Zelda game I played through, did none of these things. The closest it came was in a few steps of the Trading Game, but even there it was more logical and less random than any of the things on that list. The items have to go to people you can talk to, after all, and there are only so many on the island... and the people generally ask for or talk about the item they want, so you get clues. LA was a vast, vast improvement in comprehensibility and understanding what you actually need to be doing in the game... I like puzzles, and challenge in games, but puzzles require clues. "You need this random item hidden in a random cave in the corner of the map which we either won't mention until you need it or will give overly obtuse clues to" doesn't cut it... that's just annoying and is not good game design. Nintendo obviously learned that lesson, though, at least after LttP, considering that LA was such a big improvement on these issues, as well as OoT and beyond.
... I'm sure people will say all kinds of things about how obvious all of those items are, etc, but it sure wasn't that way for me.
But again, on the other hand many more recent games go too far the other way. Instead of completely obtusely hidden items you must have and the game never mentions, they TELL YOU IN BIG BOLD TEXT EXACTLY WHAT TO DO NEXT AT EVERY POINT, which is no better and really in many ways is worse. While too random isn't fun, too obvious and linear isn't fun in these kinds of games either... they need to balance the two elements. The first three Zelda games don't go far enough, but some of the more recent ones may go a bit too far at times, and other games are even worse... and game difficulty (of the combat and such) has gone down similarly as well, which is just as bad. Through LA, and perhaps OoT, the Zelda games were pretty challenging... but WW, TP... various game design decisions remove much of the difficulty, even when just compared to OoT and not 2d Zelda. As for puzzles, they're largely pretty good... maybe a bit too obvious at times, but largely pretty good. But as far as 2d Zelda games go, LA and the Oracles games are how it should be done, pretty much. They're hard, but incredibly good, and really well designed. They have challenge, but not hidden items that you need but that they don't give you clues for that will actually help you find the items.
But again... compared to Milon's Secret Castle, every Zelda and Metroid game looks amazingly straightforward and obvious in every way. It's a complaint on a completely different, much lower level.
I can certainly understand all those complaints on LTTP except for the Ether Medallion. I'm not sure how anybody could've missed that one...
Also, I will forever appreciate Rolling Thunder because it was one of my first exposures to completely impossible action games that you had to play at least 10 times just to get past the first level. Level 1-4 still makes me rage
And that's not even considering the "hard version" of the game, which I never even got to because the normal one was already damn hard enough
Also, I will forever appreciate Rolling Thunder because it was one of my first exposures to completely impossible action games that you had to play at least 10 times just to get past the first level. Level 1-4 still makes me rage
And that's not even considering the "hard version" of the game, which I never even got to because the normal one was already damn hard enough
A Black Falcon
Member
jman2050 said:
If you just go into that dungeon instead of thinking of going to the path to the left beyond it, perhaps, and then leave afterwards, thinking you're done and that that's most likely just another empty or unimportant corner like most all such areas in the game are?
Considering the location (on top of the mountains), it's not like you go back up there again anytime soon after completing that dungeon, so you only really get one chance to get it!
Also, I will forever appreciate Rolling Thunder because it was one of my first exposures to completely impossible action games that you had to play at least 10 times just to get past the first level. Level 1-4 still makes me rage
And that's not even considering the "hard version" of the game, which I never even got to because the normal one was already damn hard enough
Agreed, it's a very difficult game. The NES version is probably a bit easier, but it's still hard... very technical though, everything happens pretty much the same exact way every time. You just need to memorize everything to progress.
... Yeah, I don't think I've ever finished it... I will sometime though, and should considering how much I like the games.
The third one on Genesis didn't seem quite as good to me though, it changed things too much... oh, it's still fun, but it's just not quite the same as 1 or 2.
A Black Falcon said:
What exactly do you think I'm suggesting?
I actually don't think Link to the Past has aged as well as many people think it does. But it's certainly aged better than the original, and the bomb hints were a significant improvement.
Link's Awakening does fair better on the gameplay level but of course it's weaker in presentation.
A Black Falcon
Member
ZealousD said:
I just meant that quote there, nothing else (that is, that LttP definitely has its fair share of obscure puzzles). It was an excuse to post that segment of LttP complaints which I was writing up more than anything.
That's definitely true, for sure. They do a great job with the cracked walls, and in comparison to Zelda 1 LttP is a vast, vast improvement in essentially every single way.
Well, we largely agree then. LttP is a good game for its time, but it just is outclassed compared to newer, more advanced (and more improved) Zelda games like LA or OoT. The overworld is mostly boring, starting with the dull grid-of-squares layout. While it does have nice graphical design, a couple of interesting NPCs (but far too few, compared to any later Zelda game!) and some interesting areas, overall it just doesn't have the great design, or interesting contents, of overworlds from LA on. Overworld areas are huge but have very little in them. LA did the opposite of course, to great results. OoT went back to a more LttP-like style, but there I thought it worked much better. Between all the other things to do in the overworld and the towns, far more than any Zelda game before, the nice graphics, the interesting characters, and all the interesting areas to get to and explore, the fact that getting around the overworld was really easy didn't matter much to me. And then of course there was MM, which returned to the complex style of world design again. But LttP really was a step toward something that would not be fully achieved for a while longer.
As for presentation... well, it depends on what you mean. Graphics quality and music quality and such? Of course a GB game can't match the SNES... but the GB game has the absolute best graphics and music and design that a game on that platform possibly could, which is more than I'd say about LttP for sure... and it's got a far, far better story and better story presentation too. So it depends on what exactly you mean, really, I think.
LttP was a very good game, I definitely enjoyed it, and that's why I went back to it last year and finished it. For some reason I liked it a lot more on SNES than I had on GBA, when I got that version... not sure why, but I did. I'll never consider it LA's (or Oot's) equal, though. But it is great, in pretty much everything except for the story. Huge, intricate dungeons that are definitely one of the game's strongest points (some of them really could have used midpoint warps like some later games, though, for sure... but overall, great.), interesting puzzles, fun bosses, great music, a high challenge level (similar to LA, I think)... it's not perfect, and some things about it have definitely aged in comparison to the newer games in the series, and I'd never have finished it without FAQs that's for sure, but it was quite good.
A Black Falcon said:
There are various steps to get the flute, but I think they're all well documented in the game from the point where you meet the Flute Boy in the Dark World; for example, when you get the Flute you should remember the old man in the Kakariko Inn that is the grandfather of the Flute Boy, play the Flute in front of him and you will get to the final step.
The Book of Mudora is a bit obscure, but you should have noticed that stone thing when entering the desert; in the Dark World you even have those purple stumps delimiting a certain zone, which might suggest what you must do. Bombos is optional though.
I don't remember if anyone tells you to go to the waterfalls, but if you go there, reading the sign is enough.
Again, one might have noticed that stone inscription the first time you went to the tower of Hera, it isn't hidden or anything. I suppose you might forget it though, since you'd have to get the Master Sword and go back there.
I hear it's a pretty common thing, but the elder near the Eastern Palace tells you about an item near Lake Hylia when you give him the Pendant of Courage (required to get the Pegasus Boots); I guess not many pay attention at that point.
I think the idea was to let the player try beating Ganon without them, and then making him/her find out about the Silver Arrows after you fail. There are two problems with this though: falling into the pit to read the message about the arrows is often an accitental event, and even when you get the arrows you don't know how to use them correctly (or at least I had a problem with that). About the Super Bomb, I remember a message somewhere that told you about the upgrade of the Bomb Shop, but I don't remember if it was from a random NPC or if it was mandatory.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
I just went through the entire game of Milon's Secret Castle yesterday, having never really played the game before in my life(outside of trying it for like, a minute).
I didn't find any of the secrets of hidden passageways that hard to locate. In fact, at various points in the game, they give you vague hints on where to find things.
Even that block that you have to push that the Nerd pointed out was easy to spot among the other blocks(it's a different color...hmmm....)
The only thing about the game that I found really hard was...how easily you die. You do have to do a lot of grinding to recover your easily-depleted health bar, especially when it comes time to fight the bosses.
Excellent game. Not on par with Zelda or Metroid, but still a very good and similar game. I wish I had it when I was a kid
I didn't find any of the secrets of hidden passageways that hard to locate. In fact, at various points in the game, they give you vague hints on where to find things.
Even that block that you have to push that the Nerd pointed out was easy to spot among the other blocks(it's a different color...hmmm....)
The only thing about the game that I found really hard was...how easily you die. You do have to do a lot of grinding to recover your easily-depleted health bar, especially when it comes time to fight the bosses.
Excellent game. Not on par with Zelda or Metroid, but still a very good and similar game. I wish I had it when I was a kid
ITA84 said:
The bomb shop clerk himself tells you he's working on something special and you should come back for it later. And there was a giant bombable wall on the pyramid visible the first time you descended the steps. I never found it hard to add 2+2 on that one, personally. And I visited that bomb shop after every major event in the game my first time through.
Jaded Alyx
Member
This thread got weird.
Arpharmd B
Banned
Linkzg said:
Word got around through all the old-school channels. Elementary playgrounds, my back alley, through your friends cousin. Fat kid down the street.
We did have phones too back in the 90's but they were attached to walls and/or had limited range. Dunno how we got by back then.
Jaded Alyx
Member
ROFL Come on now. That's just crazy talk.Arpharmd B said:
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
Arpharmd B said:
Man, the nights I spent in your back alley. Those were the good old days.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
That, and the Nintendo Player's Guide saved a lot of confusion. Is Goonies 2 even playable without it?jman2050 said:
xs_mini_neo
Banned
C4Lukins said:
Milon is a good/decent game. I think Legacy of the Wizard is better. lol Once you learn how the game operates, you can get through even the toughest parts. These two along with Metroid 1 and Zelda 1 are some of best "hard" games of the NES era. In trying to remove the bad, devs removed much of the good these games had. Now we have hand-holding in almost every single game today, or worse...we are treated to busy work re-labeled as gameplay. You know what I mean. Fetch-quests, collect-a-thons, "achievements", and others that I've probably forgotten at the moment. The push for cinematic gaming started a long time ago, but was held back by the complete lack of gameplay. Thanks to 3D and the emergence of CG FMV, it became okay for gameplay to take a backseat to THE STORY and THE GRAPHICS that tell THE STORY.
With that said, I don't mind him ripping into this or even Zelda or Metroid. I acknowledge that there are people that will have a hard time with any game. What's easy for one may be hard as hell for another. As long as his videos are funny/entertaining...
EDIT: Goonies 2 is so very playable without a guide. And I didn't know anyone had a hard time with a LttP... much easier than Zelda 1. Even LA and OoT seem like improvements, in my opinion they are not. LA is pretty much identical to LttP, and OoT pushed for the cinematic angle more than LA and LttP did, and it showed. The series became bogged down by easier gameplay and MM brought in hordes of busy work disguised as gameplay. WW was not as bad as MM, and TP brought a tiny bit of Zelda 1 back into the fold...though not in the difficulty department. Still too much of the cinema dictating how you play.
Oh, and jman gets Zelda 1.
Freshmaker said:
I beat it without help. Actually, it's funny, cause I was able to painstakingly figure out everything I needed to do to get to the final door, but ended up being stuck for hours because I figured you needed a special key to open it. It never once occured to me during that time that a normal key would work, until I tried it at a whim in a LATER playthrough.
Ah, the joys of being young gamer.
BigJonsson
Member
In Legend of Zelda you could figure out where to bomb in dungeons by looking at the map
Bombing in dungeons wasn't nearly as much of an issue as bombing in the overworld. In dungeons, the spots to bomb are always in the middle of the edge and, like you said, you can look at the map and figure it out. But in the overworld, every wall sprite had the potential to be bombable, and there was no trick to figure out which ones were.BigJonsson said:
KevinCow said:
Fortunately, with the exception of the level 9 entrance (which even has an extremely direct hint about it), I can't think of a single required bombable area in the entire first quest.
There's always the level 8 entrance, but that's less of an issue since, by that point, you *should* have infinite fire via the red candle.
Sorry for bumping this although there is no new video from avgn (well, they put the Top 10 AVGN Moments of 2008 on screwattack.com) but I was wondering if any of you bought the DVD and if you recommend it. Thanks
Edit : and does it have subtitles? I suppose not.
Edit : and does it have subtitles? I suppose not.
I love his videos. I've been watching them since his originals on youtube.
If you guys check his website www.cinemassacre.com He has a dedicated part of it just for All of his AVGN videos. You can buy the DVDs too! I have them. =)
If you guys check his website www.cinemassacre.com He has a dedicated part of it just for All of his AVGN videos. You can buy the DVDs too! I have them. =)
BigJonsson
Member
I was wondering why there haven't been any new eps lately
And "please rewind" was on a lot of games I rented :lol
And "please rewind" was on a lot of games I rented :lol
..pakbeka..
Member
ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuBigJonsson said:
I was sure there was a new ep
Throwaway123456789
Member
Seems like he's waiting for the contract with GameTrailers to be renewed, which I'm sure they'll do gladly. After all, his videos are getting over a million views each.
A Black Falcon
Member
One other non-Nerd thing he did recently was a two-part review of the Star Wars movie series. It's pretty well done, I'd recommend watching them...
(Though darnit, the Prequel Trilogy really isn't that bad! Maybe it's just because of how much I like history and politics (and Star Wars), but The Phantom Menace is good... probably my least favorite Star Wars movie, sure, but that's like my least favorite of the three Lord of the Rings books (or films) -- it's still amazing! And Revenge of the Sith is fantastic, tied for second (with ESB) in my opinion, behind my favorite Star Wars movie, RotJ. But I know that a lot of people disagree with me on that... But anyway, watch those if you haven't.)
The NES collection video is pretty good too.
But bah, I never replied to this?
I've been told that... but I didn't pay much attention to the mostly-completely-uninteresting NPCs in the game, and didn't remember that old man's clue. Maybe it's because of how long it took me to finish the game, but by the time I got the flute, I had completely forgotten anything about anyone in town who had told me about the boy, and didn't think much about it again until suddenly I needed the flute and didn't know how to get it. I'll admit that there is a clue... but it's obscure. I know you need to draw a line between "make it a puzzle" and "make it too easy and linear and obvious", but still, I think that it'd have been better if, after you got the flute for good, the boy had given you some clue about someone in town who might like to hear about what had happened to him, or something like that... I don't think he did that.
Beyond that, of course, something like a quest log to remind you what you should be doing also helps a lot, unless you choose the path of making it blatantly obvious with popup boxes saying "GO THERE NOW". Newer Zelda games have done that sometimes, and while it is annoying (I like puzzles!), I prefer puzzles which are actual puzzles, and not just "let's hope you can remember where to bring this item!". I know that's a classic adventure game puzzle, but at least there you're usually working with a fairly small area to explore... the Zelda overworld is relatively large, it's hard to find something just by pure luck in this game if you miss the clues, which are often too vague.
... When you play the Flute after getting it but before getting the ability to warp with it, it should give you some kind of clue about what to do. That'd probably be the best solution, I think. A real clue that makes you think a bit would be fine, not necessarily just a 'go there now', but a clue...
This kind of thing is the kind of thing you'd find in virtually any '70s or '80s-style RPG, Japanese or Western, but in my opinion at least it just isn't the kind of game design which has aged well at all. At least give me a quest log to keep track of the obtuse clues, and an ingame map... having to write it all down on paper, as you have to do with those kinds of games, just isn't as fun anymore. And I say this having once made a real effort to play Wizardry VI... but I'm just too used to stuff like Baldur's Gate where the game does a fantastic job of keeping track of all that info. But anyway...
Those stumps were a clue, yeah, and you did have to go past that area. That might not be quite as obscure a some of these other things... still annoying if you miss it, though. But most of the other things on this list are worse, probably.
But said waterfall is in a deep corner of the map, completely off any kind of path, buried there in the corner! I don't think I even noticed it existed before using an FAQ to find the place... and even with a guide it wasn't easy to find. That's just ridiculous for a place you must go to.
But you have to go past the Tower of Hera to find it, correct? Past it, onto that dead-end area beyond the tower enterance... so why not just go in, and forget about exploring further when you have reached your goal? There's nothing that tells you you have to keep going! Nothing at all... until you get stuck without the slightest clue of what to do (the "hint" they give you about it is utterly worthless unless you already know what the thing is you're missing, pretty much).
There are a lot of things around Lake Hylia. How are you supposed to know which one in specific he's referring to? For all you know it could be any of the other interesting things in that vicinity -- like the cave on the island in the middle of the lake, perhaps, for instance? I didn't even notice that Ice Rod cave. If I had remembered the old man's clue (I'm sure I didn't), I'd have probably just thought it referred to one of the other things around there that I had done. Unless he's more specific than I think about where this item is and what it is? Either way, I definitely didn't notice that... and again, the one and only time the game makes you use that item is MANY hours later into the game, at a point where if you don't have it, you will NOT remember that clue or have any idea about what you're missing. ANd that's the real problem... what about the person who didn't remember it... until suddenly they get stuck at that boss? The game has nothing there at all to help you. You need an FAQ... and the will to redo that entire dungeon again from scratch, after you come back.
Indeed... awful design. Here at least we mostly agree.
As for the Super Bomb, the only thing I remember is the guy in the bomb shop saying something, but if you're not going back into that shop (and why would I, after getting the bombs?), you wouldn't know. You need to do a lot better than that...
Of course, the good news is that Nintendo realized all of these things, and got the message. From Link's Awakening on, no Zelda game would be this obtuse again, and I consider that definitely a good thing.
(Though darnit, the Prequel Trilogy really isn't that bad! Maybe it's just because of how much I like history and politics (and Star Wars), but The Phantom Menace is good... probably my least favorite Star Wars movie, sure, but that's like my least favorite of the three Lord of the Rings books (or films) -- it's still amazing! And Revenge of the Sith is fantastic, tied for second (with ESB) in my opinion, behind my favorite Star Wars movie, RotJ. But I know that a lot of people disagree with me on that... But anyway, watch those if you haven't.
)The NES collection video is pretty good too.
But bah, I never replied to this?
ITA84 said:
I've been told that... but I didn't pay much attention to the mostly-completely-uninteresting NPCs in the game, and didn't remember that old man's clue. Maybe it's because of how long it took me to finish the game, but by the time I got the flute, I had completely forgotten anything about anyone in town who had told me about the boy, and didn't think much about it again until suddenly I needed the flute and didn't know how to get it. I'll admit that there is a clue... but it's obscure. I know you need to draw a line between "make it a puzzle" and "make it too easy and linear and obvious", but still, I think that it'd have been better if, after you got the flute for good, the boy had given you some clue about someone in town who might like to hear about what had happened to him, or something like that... I don't think he did that.
Beyond that, of course, something like a quest log to remind you what you should be doing also helps a lot, unless you choose the path of making it blatantly obvious with popup boxes saying "GO THERE NOW". Newer Zelda games have done that sometimes, and while it is annoying (I like puzzles!), I prefer puzzles which are actual puzzles, and not just "let's hope you can remember where to bring this item!". I know that's a classic adventure game puzzle, but at least there you're usually working with a fairly small area to explore... the Zelda overworld is relatively large, it's hard to find something just by pure luck in this game if you miss the clues, which are often too vague.
... When you play the Flute after getting it but before getting the ability to warp with it, it should give you some kind of clue about what to do. That'd probably be the best solution, I think. A real clue that makes you think a bit would be fine, not necessarily just a 'go there now', but a clue...
This kind of thing is the kind of thing you'd find in virtually any '70s or '80s-style RPG, Japanese or Western, but in my opinion at least it just isn't the kind of game design which has aged well at all. At least give me a quest log to keep track of the obtuse clues, and an ingame map... having to write it all down on paper, as you have to do with those kinds of games, just isn't as fun anymore. And I say this having once made a real effort to play Wizardry VI... but I'm just too used to stuff like Baldur's Gate where the game does a fantastic job of keeping track of all that info. But anyway...
Those stumps were a clue, yeah, and you did have to go past that area. That might not be quite as obscure a some of these other things... still annoying if you miss it, though. But most of the other things on this list are worse, probably.
But said waterfall is in a deep corner of the map, completely off any kind of path, buried there in the corner! I don't think I even noticed it existed before using an FAQ to find the place... and even with a guide it wasn't easy to find. That's just ridiculous for a place you must go to.
But you have to go past the Tower of Hera to find it, correct? Past it, onto that dead-end area beyond the tower enterance... so why not just go in, and forget about exploring further when you have reached your goal? There's nothing that tells you you have to keep going! Nothing at all... until you get stuck without the slightest clue of what to do (the "hint" they give you about it is utterly worthless unless you already know what the thing is you're missing, pretty much).
There are a lot of things around Lake Hylia. How are you supposed to know which one in specific he's referring to? For all you know it could be any of the other interesting things in that vicinity -- like the cave on the island in the middle of the lake, perhaps, for instance? I didn't even notice that Ice Rod cave. If I had remembered the old man's clue (I'm sure I didn't), I'd have probably just thought it referred to one of the other things around there that I had done. Unless he's more specific than I think about where this item is and what it is? Either way, I definitely didn't notice that... and again, the one and only time the game makes you use that item is MANY hours later into the game, at a point where if you don't have it, you will NOT remember that clue or have any idea about what you're missing. ANd that's the real problem... what about the person who didn't remember it... until suddenly they get stuck at that boss? The game has nothing there at all to help you. You need an FAQ... and the will to redo that entire dungeon again from scratch, after you come back.
Indeed... awful design. Here at least we mostly agree.
As for the Super Bomb, the only thing I remember is the guy in the bomb shop saying something, but if you're not going back into that shop (and why would I, after getting the bombs?), you wouldn't know. You need to do a lot better than that...
Of course, the good news is that Nintendo realized all of these things, and got the message. From Link's Awakening on, no Zelda game would be this obtuse again, and I consider that definitely a good thing.
cartman414
Member
jman2050 said:
Late to the party here, but combat was at times frustrating and/or boring due to Link's straight stabbing and rigidly four-way movement. Not to mention the oft-random AI. All of which required too much emphasis on lining yourself up properly to strike monsters, especially Darknuts.
Another reason why it grinds my gears that the awesome combat of Zelda II goes underappreciated.
xs_mini_neo said:
You have to admit that there's a preferable in-between point.
In addition to what's been said about Zelda, and the trial-and-error secrets of Metroid, the latter is mostly filled with missile packs, not to mention neighboring duplicate corridors and game control/mechanical issues ahoy. Super Metroid was an exponential improvement.
LA refined what was in LttP by cutting the design chaff, namely areas that were large for the sake of being large. For instance, there were fewer tree clusters to speak of. The design was far more to the point, and the game flowed all the better for it.
A Black Falcon
Member
Bah, that post ended up at the bottom of the last page?
Zelda on the NES's combat was great... four-way movement works fine. More freedom is nice, sure, but not necessary to have a good game.
Yeah, that in-between point is what games should aim for. It's a harder target than simply forcing you to figure it all out completely on your own (in the old style) or making it all utterly linear and obvious (in the newer style), but it's definitely superior to either of those.
-Super Metroid -- certainly an incredible improvement, but it's still got a lot of randomly hidden stuff to find. Much of this is not necessary, but some of it is. You need to spend quite a bit of time attacking walls and such... I know, this is how classic Metroid works, and I did like Super Metroid (with an FAQ), but without an FAQ, I doubt I'd have ever gotten through it. Great game though, certainly.
-Legacy of the Wizard -- I would probably agree that this game is more fun than Milon's Secret Castle, simply because you can wander around a lot of the game freely, exploring and having fun. Of course if you want to play to actually make progress it's a much more difficult, much more frustrating game, but you don't HAVE to. In comparison, in Milon you simply have to find that stuff or you get stuck and frustrated and stop having fun. Legacy of the Wizard's definitely more enjoyable... well apart from those 30-or-so-character passwords.
Yeah, as I've said before, I'd say that in some very important ways, LA is dramatically different from LttP. It's got an improved, great interface, a dramatically, DRAMATICALLY improved overworld which cuts vast amounts of empty nothing and overly large trees and replaces it with tightly designed areas that all truly matter, are interesting, and have things to do in essentially every screen, none of those overly obtuse quest points like I was just describing in LttP (the closest are some parts of the Trading Game, but even those are fairly obvious in comparison to anything on that LttP list there... and there are a relatively limited number of NPCs, so finding the right one isn't too hard. Those NPCs that there are are definitely more interesting than LttP NPCs, with more depth of character and script than the vast majority of LttP NPCs. Marin is of course the best example of this (no character in LttP comes even close), but she's not the only one. Oh, and the story, of course, is incomparably better.
Dungeons are the least different, but even there LA has smaller, tighter-designed dungeons where LttP has huge, sprawling ones. Both types can be fun,
cartman414 said:
Zelda on the NES's combat was great... four-way movement works fine. More freedom is nice, sure, but not necessary to have a good game.
Yeah, that in-between point is what games should aim for. It's a harder target than simply forcing you to figure it all out completely on your own (in the old style) or making it all utterly linear and obvious (in the newer style), but it's definitely superior to either of those.
-Super Metroid -- certainly an incredible improvement, but it's still got a lot of randomly hidden stuff to find. Much of this is not necessary, but some of it is. You need to spend quite a bit of time attacking walls and such... I know, this is how classic Metroid works, and I did like Super Metroid (with an FAQ), but without an FAQ, I doubt I'd have ever gotten through it. Great game though, certainly.
-Legacy of the Wizard -- I would probably agree that this game is more fun than Milon's Secret Castle, simply because you can wander around a lot of the game freely, exploring and having fun. Of course if you want to play to actually make progress it's a much more difficult, much more frustrating game, but you don't HAVE to. In comparison, in Milon you simply have to find that stuff or you get stuck and frustrated and stop having fun. Legacy of the Wizard's definitely more enjoyable... well apart from those 30-or-so-character passwords.
Yeah, as I've said before, I'd say that in some very important ways, LA is dramatically different from LttP. It's got an improved, great interface, a dramatically, DRAMATICALLY improved overworld which cuts vast amounts of empty nothing and overly large trees and replaces it with tightly designed areas that all truly matter, are interesting, and have things to do in essentially every screen, none of those overly obtuse quest points like I was just describing in LttP (the closest are some parts of the Trading Game, but even those are fairly obvious in comparison to anything on that LttP list there... and there are a relatively limited number of NPCs, so finding the right one isn't too hard. Those NPCs that there are are definitely more interesting than LttP NPCs, with more depth of character and script than the vast majority of LttP NPCs. Marin is of course the best example of this (no character in LttP comes even close), but she's not the only one. Oh, and the story, of course, is incomparably better.
Dungeons are the least different, but even there LA has smaller, tighter-designed dungeons where LttP has huge, sprawling ones. Both types can be fun,
Red Scarlet
Member
Oh good, it has been a while.