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[theCalamity]

I don't know about you, but turning Universities into echo chambers doesn't sound too smart to me. It sounds like Trump University. Seriously Socrates is rolling in his grave over this shit.

I don't see how wanting to keep racist, homophobic, and all around bigots from speaking at universities would turn them into echo chambers.

 

[HellforLeather]

Does nobody realize that Milo and Coulter are going to Berkeley precisely because of the ensuing riot? It basically proves them right that "progressives" are looneys when they are destroying their own town over a person speaking.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

The current President of the United States got completely crushed in several debates viewed by millions of people on national TV.

Didn't stop him from winning anyway.


Milo's career ended because Republicans found out he defended pedophiles.

He lost the popular election by over 3 million votes and barely slid by in a few key states. He's the most unpopular president in history.

 

[Salty Rice]

Still like Maher and cant blame him because that sexual tension between them on his show is always through the roof.

 

[Lord Frieza]

Bill Maher was one of the few liberals who was SMART enough to let Milo, the p.o.s. troll, to speak his mind freely and basically expose himself as the fraud he is

guess what, Milo's career was done just weeks after he got that big platform to speak his mind

Lol, expose himself. His appearance on Real Time was one of his tamest, and Bill was a complete joke as interviewer and panel speaker who Milo played like a fiddle. Him being done had nothing to do with his appearance with Real Time. It was because someone dug up an old video of him talking pedophilia. Hell, Bill even started to defend him after that video came out, though he was smart enough to stop short before he stepped into that hornet's nest.

His appearance on Real Time and his downfall were totally coincidental. Hell, if anything, his appearance on RT was probably beneficial overall, since he displayed himself as much of a lovable douche, and Maher did nothing to point out his much darker talking points or the fact that he read names at his rallies for his followers to harass.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

Milo's career ended because Republicans found out he defended pedophiles in past statements, statements made long before Milo went on Maher's show.

You would know this if you were paying attention at the time.

He image tanked after the Maher show

You would know this if you were paying attention at the time

Lol, expose himself. His appearance on Real Time was one of his tamest, and Bill was a complete joke as interviewer and panel speaker who Milo played like a fiddle. Him being done had nothing to do with his appearance with Real Time. It was because someone dug up an old video of him talking pedophilia. Hell, Bill even started to defend him after that video came out, though he was smart enough to stop short before he stepped into that hornet's nest.

His appearance on Real Time and his downfall were totally coincidental. Hell, if anything, his appearance on RT was probably beneficial overall, since he displayed himself as much of a lovable douche, and Maher did nothing to point out his much darker talking points or the fact that he read names at his rallies for his followers to harass.

that's up to interpretation my friend

 

[Infinite]

Does nobody realize that Milo and Coulter are going to Berkeley precisely because of the ensuing riot? It basically proves them right that "progressives" are looneys when they are destroying their own town over a person speaking.

You're basically saying they are purposely inciting potential riots essentially by trolling a bunch of college kids. That's really not a badge of honor and it's crazy the media and pundits like Bill Maher plays into that narrative.

 

[LegendofJoe]

Silencing people does work when you've got the means to get it done and the balls to follow through on it.

See Standing Rock. See the gerrymandering all throughout the midwest. See the criminal justice system and prison industrial complex that disqualifies millions of people from participating in the electoral process. Silencing people absolutely does work when done properly.

Our problem is not that we're trying to silence anyone, it's that there doesn't seem to be enough people on our side able and willing to actually get it done because so many of us are stuck on this idiotic idea that everything is equal outside the abstract, as if we're all standing on even ground and thus should treat our enemies the way we want to be treated. We lose when we aren't willing to get our hands as dirty as our enemies who have no qualms about spitting in our faces. If they get up after we knock em down, all that means is we didn't hit them hard enough.

If you're OK with insisting that we continue to operate like that in the face of legitimate evil, you must have no real skin in the game.

This post gives me life, love it!

 

[entremet]

Lol, expose himself. His appearance on Real Time was one of his tamest, and Bill was a complete joke as interviewer and panel speaker who Milo played like a fiddle. Him being done had nothing to do with his appearance with Real Time. It was because someone dug up an old video of him talking pedophilia. Hell, Bill even started to defend him after that video came out, though he was smart enough to stop short before he stepped into that hornet's nest.

His appearance on Real Time and his downfall were totally coincidental. Hell, if anything, his appearance on RT was probably beneficial overall, since he displayed himself as much of a lovable douche, and Maher did nothing to point out his much darker talking points or the fact that he read names at his rallies for his followers to harass.

You could say giving Milo the limelight allowed the mainstream to further investigate his past.

I just don't get why liberals have become so afraid about highlight dumb and dangerous ideas so they could be demolished in the public space. That's the point of rational discourse. There's a natural selection of the ideas that work.

I can't cosign that. It's a very coddling mindset. At least that's how I see it.

You lose an election and people lose their minds.

 

[Lord Frieza]

He image tanked after the Maher show

You would know this if you were paying attention at the time



that's up to interpretation my friend

You're entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts. The thing that crashed Milo was the pedo-video. It had nothing to do with his appearance on Real Time. Sorry, bud, this is 100% the facts.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

Silencing people does work when you've got the means to get it done and the balls to follow through on it.

See Standing Rock. See the gerrymandering all throughout the midwest. See the criminal justice system and prison industrial complex that disqualifies millions of people from participating in the electoral process. Silencing people absolutely does work when done properly.

Our problem is not that we're trying to silence anyone, it's that there doesn't seem to be enough people on our side able and willing to actually get it done because so many of us are stuck on this idiotic idea that everything is equal outside the abstract, as if we're all standing on even ground and thus should treat our enemies the way we want to be treated. We lose when we aren't willing to get our hands as dirty as our enemies who have no qualms about spitting in our faces. If they get up after we knock em down, all that means is we didn't hit them hard enough.

If you're OK with insisting that we continue to operate like that in the face of legitimate evil, you must have no real skin in the game.

Are you the leader of some cult group? Didn't realize you spoke on behalf so many people

You're entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts. The thing that crashed Milo was the pedo-video. It had nothing to do with his appearance on Real Time. Sorry, bud, this is 100% the facts.

nice one-liner bro, never heard that on TV before, keep passing your opinion as facts though

 

[HellforLeather]

You're basically saying they are purposely inciting potential riots essentially by trolling a bunch of college kids. That's really not a badge of honor and it's crazy the media and pundits like Bill Maher plays into that narrative.

So the people committing the violence and riots have no responsibility here then? Im not saying its a badge of honor but im saying that they play right into the narrative that Ann Coulter and Milo push of the left being anti-free speech and violent.

 

[Lord Frieza]

You could say giving Milo the limelight allowed the mainstream to further investigate his past.

I just don't get why liberals have become so afraid about highlight dumb and dangerous ideas so they could be demolished in the public space. That's the point of rational discourse. There's a natural selection of the ideas that work.

I can't cosign that. It's a very coddling mindset. At least that's how I see it.

You lose an election and people lose their minds.

Milo was in the limelight well before Real Time. I mean, you are acting like he was unknown, he wasn't. And demolished in a public space. Lol, Maher did demolish Milo. That interview was an embarrassment. He help to enable Milo if anything.

As for the rest of this, please address this post then:

If we really want to talk about ways in which people will stop listening to other and follow that to its natural conclusion, the best way of doing that is to delegitimize what they are saying. And what is the biggest way to do that? To stop giving them big platforms to say it. To make them have to go stand on street corners and shout like all the other crazies who are saying shit like the Lizard people are coming.

Of course, doing that is incredibly hard in the era of the internet and Fox News and 'both sides are tots the sames, guy, cross my heart' reporting on TV, but still, that's the best way to get people, in mass, to stop listening to others. Debating them away only work when those people actually care about debate, and Lord, if it's anything that the last few years have proven it's that they don't give two shits about that. It's like some of you are playing Yahtzee when these people are telling you they are going to play something else right to your face, and you just hope intense Yahtzee will make them suddenly lose at Yahtzee.

No one else has stepped up to do so, so please, help us out. What Next?

 

[radios shipping overview]

He image tanked after the Maher show

You would know this if you were paying attention at the time

He didn't go under because of Maher. Maher saw a younger version of himself in Milo.

Milo went down because conservative NeverTrumpers went after him to keep his views from being mainstreamed at CPAC.

 

[Machina]

I don't see how wanting to keep racist, homophobic, and all around bigots from speaking at universities would turn them into echo chambers.

Why do you insult the intelligence of educated young people by suggesting that they would actually have that sort of impression left on them in 2017? No chance in hell. The only people that would turn up to see the likes of Coulter and Milo are the ones that would've shown up regardless of the venue.

 

[entremet]

Milo was in the limelight well before Real Time. I mean, you are acting like he was unknown, he wasn't. And demolished in a public space. Lol, Maher did demolish Milo. That interview was an embarrassment. He help to enable Milo if anything.

As for the rest of this, please address this post then:



No one else has stepped up to do so, so please, help us out. What Next?

The issue here is that Berkeley is a public university, unlike a private one, which can chose to ban speakers at will.

That is what makes these topics a bit different than just giving them a platform.

 

[Lord Frieza]

nice one-liner bro, never heard that on TV before, keep passing your opinion as facts though

Then support your reasoning. Where was it said that his appearance on Real Time lead to his being forced out of Breitbart, or losing his book deal, or having his supporters turn against him, or his media appearances canceled, etc. You seem pretty sure of it, so I'm sure you have loads.

For me, all you have to do is search the thread were it went down and search through it. I can do it for you if you're unable. So please, proceed.

 

[RoninChaos]

But it's an idea he, himself, plays into whether he means to or not. He insists, pretty much every time he talks about it, in connecting ISIS to Islam, when the majority of Muslims are trying to distance Islam from the creed of ISIS and other extremist ideologies. He's said more than once that 'Islam has an army of extremists, something no other religion has right now.' It's no wonder people call him an Islamophobe even if, ultimately, I don't think he is.

How many non muslims are in ISIS?

 

[HStallion]

He image tanked after the Maher show

You would know this if you were paying attention at the time

I'd say his appearance on Maher was not the reason for his image tanking but people digging up things he said well into the past and one of those things was one of the few the conservatives can't abide by. They came out at the same time basically but I don't think the appearance on Maher had much to do with what went down around Milo except to paint Maher in a bad light and let Milo rant for another audience.

 

[Toxi]

He image tanked after the Maher show

You would know this if you were paying attention at the time

that's up to interpretation my friend

This is like watching your team win a football game with your friend and assuming the win was based on your friend's presence.

You could say giving Milo the limelight allowed the mainstream to further investigate his past.

Under this logic, it's not Maher we should be thanking, it's the protestors at Berkeley. Maher only latched onto something that was already in the public consciousness at the time.

Except that's still really silly. Because we know what brought down Milo. It wasn't publicity, it was someone going through his old laundry.

 

[Lord Frieza]

The issue here is that Berkeley is a public university, unlike a private one, which can chose to ban speakers at will.

That is what makes these topics a bit different than just giving them a platform.

Didn't answer the question, and I, and others have addressed the platform issue here so let's not regurgitate that argument. So, What Next?

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

Then support your reasoning. Where was it said that his appearance on Real Time lead to his being forced out of Breitbart, or losing his book deal, or having his supporters turn against him, or his media appearances canceled, etc. You seem pretty sure of it, so I'm sure you have loads.

For me, all you have to do is search the thread were it went down and search through it. I can do it for you if you're unable. So please, proceed.

you presenting me with a GAF thread does not represent society as a whole, again, it's all subjective interpretation


I can't believe I'm actually going back and forth with someone who doesn't understand the difference between opinion and fact

 

[Lord Frieza]

How many non muslims are in ISIS?

The vast majority? I have no idea what kind of numbers we're actually talking about

 

[The Kree]

Are you the leader of some cult group? Didn't realize you spoke on behalf so many people

Nah. Calling us a cult would imply that we have some kind of solidarity or focus.

 

[entremet]

Didn't answer the question, and I, and others have addressed the platform issue here so let's not regurgitate that argument. So, What Next?

I don't see giving ideas, even bad ones, platform a negative!

That's my main philosophical difference here. I think Ann Coulter's views are abhorrent. But this is best combated with a vociferous attack on why her ideas suck. What ever happened to argumentation or debate? It's funny that this is being seen as a bad thing in a university of all places.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

The vast majority? I have no idea what kind of numbers we're actually talking about

The vast majority of ISIS members are not muslim?

Nah. Calling us a cult would imply that we have some kind of solidarity or focus.

what group are you speaking on behalf of?

 

[Lord Frieza]

you presenting me with a GAF thread does not represent society as a whole, again, it's all subjective interpretation


I can't believe I'm actually going back and forth with someone who doesn't understand the difference between opinion and fact

I was talking about you can look through the thread to see where you see statements from publishers and supporters being made about the pedo-tape, obviously. Where's your statements from publishers and supporters saying they dropped him for being Real Time and being 'demolished' by Bill Maher so badly? How would you say Bill 'demolished' Milo anyway? Any key quotes or instances you'd like to share?

 

[Lord Frieza]

I don't see giving ideas, even bad ones, platform a negative!

That's my main philosophical difference here. I think Ann Coulter's views are abhorrent. But this is best combated with a vociferous attack on why her ideas suck. What ever happened to argumentation or debate? It's funny that this is being seen as a bad thing in a university of all places.

You're not answering the question. What happens when that doesn't work? What Next?

 

[theCalamity]

Why do you insult the intelligence of educated young people by suggesting that they would actually have that sort of impression left on them in 2017? No chance in hell. The only people that would turn up to see the likes of Coulter and Milo are the ones that would've shown up regardless of the venue.

I don't understand. The likes of Milo and Coulter have to talk to prevent the universities from becoming echo chambers, but no one is going to go listen to them except their fans. Seems like a pretty ineffective way of getting through the echo chamber.

 

[entremet]

You're not answering the question. What happens when that doesn't work? What Next?

My concern is not about efficacy, but ideals. I can't control what works. That's authoritarian thinking.

But we've seen the best idea survive. Otherwise, only white dudes that owned land would be voting these days.

Why did that happen? Because eventually the best ideas won out.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

I was talking about you can look through the thread to see where you see statements from publishers and supporters being made about the pedo-tape, obviously. Where's your statements from publishers and supporters saying they dropped him for being Real Time and being 'demolished' by Bill Maher so badly? How would you say Bill 'demolished' Milo anyone? Any key quotes or instances you'd like to share?

Milo saying in the interview very plainly that he does it all to get a rise out of liberals was a key moment.... in my opinion of course. Notice how I don't state my opinion as 2+2=4 fact

 

[HStallion]

I don't see giving ideas, even bad ones, platform a negative!

That's my main philosophical difference here. I think Ann Coulter's views are abhorrent. But this is best combated with a vociferous attack on why her ideas suck. What ever happened to argumentation or debate? It's funny that this is being seen as a bad thing in a university of all places.

Personally I think it only goes so far. When you're debating people that talk about minorities like they're monsters or sub human and say all other gross, disgusting, bigoted outrageous shit I have to wonder who is getting more out of this. Its like an adult arguing with a child over something foolish the child believes. All this accomplishes is making the adult look childish and silly, while the child thinks there is some merit to their claims because they're allowed that back and forth instead of just being shut down immediately.

 

[Toxi]

I don't see giving ideas, even bad ones, platform a negative!

That's my main philosophical difference here. I think Ann Coulter's views are abhorrent. But this is best combated with a vociferous attack on why her ideas suck. What ever happened to argumentation or debate? It's funny that this is being seen as a bad thing in a university of all places.

People have been doing this to Ann Coulter for years.

 

[entremet]

People have been doing this to Ann Coulter for years.

Ann Coulters will always exist, breh. The issue is that her ideas have continued to lose out.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Milo Yanniolppiiyys was invited to CPAC.
CPAC does not take its cues from Maher.
Conservatives who also don't watch his crappy show did not dig into his past because of his crappy show. They did so because of CPAC.
CPAC and the Reagan Battalion are the cause of Milo falling out of favor.
Not Liberal Icon Bill Maher.

How anyone expects to show the dumb Coulter fanbase the light through their terribly clever debate escapes me when they can't even remember February.

 

[Infinite]

Ann Coulters will always exist, breh. The issue is that her ideas have continued to lose out.

Donald Trump is president

 

[Dude Abides]

Ann Coulters will always exist, breh. The issue is that her ideas have continued to lose out.

Her ideas have not lost out. She's currently winning.

 

[Lord Frieza]

My issue is not about efficacy, but ideals. I can't control what works. That's authoritarian thinking.

But we've seen the best idea survive. Otherwise, only white dudes that owned land would be voting these days.

We have? Then why is eugenics still being talked about and people defending it? Why are Neo-Nazis still around, and being defended for calling for Genocide? Why did a clearly racism man ascend to the Presidency? Why do some people openly still believe the Earth is Flat? And I could go on.

No, the best ideas are not the only one that survives. And, I hate to break it to you, but a good ol' country debate isn't the only ways that 'bad' ideas won over 'good' ideas. War was fought to end slavery. War was fought to overtake the Nazis on a global scale. Protests and blood was spilled to get the Civil Rights Act. Protests and hundreds, if not thousands, of Americans dying and suffering got AIDS to be taken seriously.

So, again, What Next?

Milo saying in the interview very plainly that he does it all to get a rise out of liberals was a key moment.... in my opinion of course. Notice how I don't state my opinion as 2+2=4 fact

So, when Bill said something that was bullshit and actually a pretty dangerous lie was a key moment? When did his publisher drop his book because of this comment?

 

[LegendofJoe]

I don't see giving ideas, even bad ones, platform a negative!

That's my main philosophical difference here. I think Ann Coulter's views are abhorrent. But this is best combated with a vociferous attack on why her ideas suck. What ever happened to argumentation or debate? It's funny that this is being seen as a bad thing in a university of all places.

Coulter is a professional shit stirrer. She doesn't care about reasoned debate. She says crazy and/or hateful things because it brings attention to her and makes her money. The best way to shut her down is to completely ignore her.

Regular people though that don't live to rile people up and act like an asshole? Yeah, debate and reason with them. They may earnestly want to listen to you and think about what you tell them, Ann Coulter does not.

 

[entremet]

Donald Trump is president

Who won a squeaker due to the EC.

Trump is an aberration and has also invigorated the liberal movement.

Beyond that, winning 3 Presidential terms in a row by one party is a rare occurrence. On the macro perspective, liberals ideals are winning.

What you're talking is about politics and how the game is played. But polling shows support for liberal causes at all time high. The GOP is just better at playing politics.

 

[Lord Frieza]

Coulter is a professional shit stirrer. She doesn't care about reasoned debate. She says crazy and/or hateful things because it brings attention to her and makes her money. The best way to shut her down is to completely ignore her.

Regular people thought that don't live to rile people up and act like an asshole? Yeah, debate and reason with them. They may earnestly want to listen to you and think about what you tell them, Ann Coulter does not.

This is wrong. The best way to shut her down is to delegitmatize everything she says and does, and part of that is not giving her a platform. But that goes beyond college campuses and to cable news and the such, so it's a bigger step than this in the end.

 

[ReadingRambo]

Does nobody realize that Milo and Coulter are going to Berkeley precisely because of the ensuing riot? It basically proves them right that "progressives" are looneys when they are destroying their own town over a person speaking.

And they would be completely correct.

 

[Toxi]

Who won a squeaker due to the EC.

So? He's still our President. He still got 62 million votes.

 

[Lord Frieza]

And they would be completely correct.

So, protesting, a part of the first amendment, is wrong, but the free speech applies to everything, including hate speech and potentially reading names of students to get harassed by their supporters? I just want to be clear on what it is we're saying here for the hardcore First Amendment defenders

 

[HellforLeather]

We have? Then why is eugenics still being talked about and people defending it? Why are Neo-Nazis still around, and being defended for calling for Genocide? Why did a clearly racism man ascend to the Presidency? Why do some people openly still believe the Earth is Flat? And I could go on.

When these are the prevailing ideas of the age, then you will have a point. As far as Trump goes...that was the Dems election to lose and they did practically everything possible to fuck it up and it was still a fairly close election.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

Who won a squeaker due to the EC.

Popular vote is meaningless in the presidential elections, he easily won the EC


(NOT SAYING IT'S A GOOD THING)

 

[entremet]

So? He's still our President. He still got 62 million votes.

I accept that reality!

But I don't see it as a regression of positive liberal values, but a party that can play the political game better.

 

[LegendofJoe]

This is wrong. The best way to shut her down is to delegitmatize everything she says and does, and part of that is not giving her a platform. But that goes beyond college campuses and to cable news and the such, so it's a bigger step than this in the end.

Taking her platform away is forcing people to ignore her, how is that any different?

I agree with you that removing her platform is the ideal solution.

 

[HellforLeather]

So, protesting, a part of the first amendment, is wrong, but the free speech applies to everything, including hate speech and potentially reading names of students to get harassed by their supporters? I just want to be clear on what it is we're saying here for the hardcore First Amendment defenders

Is that what they were doing in Berkeley? Because it looked like chucking bricks, damaging property, setting shit on fire, and beating up people....not peaceful protest. None of which are protected by the 1st.

 

[Brandon F]

That isn't what happens. Let me tell you what happens.

Me: Please don't use the n word in my presence.
Them: I didn't mean anything by it.
Me: Okay, don't say it again then.
*they continue to say it again in other encounters*
Me: I really don't like you using racial slurs.
Them: *scoffs* You know that's why racism is still alive, because that word is taboo.
Me: .....
-----

With this sample encounter that has taken place in my life more times than I can count. Please elucidate me on how I was the firebrand in any situation?

You can't talk to people who don't want to have an honest dialogue. It doesn't work. It won't work with Coulter. The partitioning of responsibility to the marginalized really needs to end.

And when you say something like this, and minorities hold you at a distance. You can't complain about our response. Where is your responsibility?

To be fair, your example wasn't exactly a dialogue exchange. You were making a hardened request, that eventually turned into a demand without inciting an actual discussion or justification. People often don't take well to that regardless of the nature of the argument or whom is in the right.

I mean the reasoning to NOT use the word is socially implied and common decency shouldn't require a debate in that situation(I would also be put-off being the company of those that do the same). Still, you were enforcing decency on indecent people and his pushback isn't really unexpected. The irony and reality is that he is the one that opened up an argument for you to step up and engage with(giving him the potential to actually learn why exactly his view on the subject is wrong).

Education and understanding(from his end) really is the only way to deal with this, as you learned that hard demands didn't do shit and only further made it difficult to alter perception. I also get the frustration entirely. Proper discourse demands respect from both parties, and when the actions of one are so disrespectful that you want nothing more than to shut them the fuck up, it is difficult to actually do so in a way respectful way, but that really is the only way to break through to these people. Disrespect them(even with good intentions) and it will never work.