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[Vena]

PMDT are working to Add a Golden Sun character another Fire Emblem character and Knuckles. I think that's what was being referenced.

There's that, and altering IPs can likely put them out of how they were signed off for use in contract. We don't really know how it was all written and Japan has different laws from the States, or the EU.

There's just a lot of legalities turning everything into a headache to dig through and trying to disentangle. Of course, if PMDT/BR adds Knuckles, Isaac, and Lyn... its not "gray" anymore.

 

[curlyfriski]

Is there anyone with actual legal knowledge who can talk about PM? Seems like mostly hearsay in here.

 

[chaosblade]

There's that, and altering IPs can likely put them out of how they were signed off for use in contract. We don't really know how it was all written and Japan has different laws from the States, or the EU.

There's just a lot of legalities turning everything into a headache to dig through and trying to disentangle. Of course, if PMDT/BR adds Knuckles, Isaac, and Lyn... its not "gray" anymore.

I really don't think adding a handful of characters is going to cause the hammer to come down. Adding Lyn/Knuckles/Isaac isn't really any different than adding Mewtwo or Roy. Sure, they were playable in Melee so it's kind of a throwback to that, but it's still adding new characters that weren't in Brawl.

The Castlevania stage is probably the biggest offender from a legal standpoint, given that there isn't any sort of license for that period.

I just think they don't care. Project M isn't competition to actual Smash releases, it is just a popular fan project. Shutting it down will cause more harm than good no matter how you look at it. Best way to minimize it is to do exactly what they are doing - keep it out of the spotlight, stunt community growth. They avoid the Streisand effect, bitterness from (most) fans, and push the new Smash in the process.

 

[Professor Beef]

I really don't think adding a handful of characters is going to cause the hammer to come down. Adding Lyn/Knuckles/Isaac isn't really any different than adding Mewtwo or Roy. Sure, they were playable in Melee so it's kind of a throwback to that, but it's still adding new characters that weren't in Brawl.

Mewtwo and Roy were on the disc but were more or less dummied out, so there's a tiny grey area with that.

 

[Mit-]

Nintendo will only sponsor the biggest tournaments and they won't sponsor PM tournaments.

The biggest tournaments will still likely accept that sponsorship.

Everyone else should still feel free to play PM.

I have no idea why people are exploding on Reddit.

Owait it's r/smashbros

 

[FyreWulff]

Is there anyone with actual legal knowledge who can talk about PM? Seems like mostly hearsay in here.

Anything made out of Brawl is a derivative work of Brawl, meaning Nintendo has the right and the ability to shut it down.

PM is also adding characters from other companies copyright, meaning those companies can also shut it down.

It's also accomplished by using homebrew exploits, code which is not owned by either Nintendo or the PM project.

PM's best position is to just be not acknowledged officially by Nintendo. It can continue to live on, and Nintendo can pretend it doesn't exist and get stuck choosing between who is the ordained 'public mod' if they ever even wanted to officially start dealing with that kind of thing.

 

[Diprosalic]

i dont mind PM. i think it's impressive what they have done and all the power to the people who want to play it but asking Nintendo to embrace it is just plain stupid and unrealistic.

They fact that they look the other way should be taken as a nice gesture.

 

[Tripon]

Nobody is stopping people from playing PM.

Although the fact that PM players took over the Smash subreddit for a full day right after APEX is highly annoying.

A couple of quick thoughts about how APEX is run:

I realize that this year's APEX was insane and scheduling in general had to suffer just to get though everything but....

- If you want to stream multiple Top 8 on the last day Sunday, all sets should be finished by Sat. A lot of the delay was because certain players had to switch from Doubles to Singles, to doubles of an another game just so they can play their matches.

- Also, doing Top 48 on Sunday for Melee was a mistake, especially if you were going to stream all the round 2 matches. IMO, APEX should have started the final bracket on Saturday, just like the Wii U bracket was, where they whittled it down to Top 16 for Sunday. When VGBootcamp made the switch from Melee to Wii U, that Top 48 bracket still had matches to play. No way in hell they were going to finish to get to Top 8 on time even if the rest of the schedule was going to play out smoothly like it was originally planned to.

- They should probably move Brawl top 8 and Doubles of at all games to Saturday next year, or cap entries to make it run more smoothly.

 

[Mit-]

Nobody is stopping people from playing PM.

Although the fact that PM players took over the Smash subreddit for a full day right after APEX is highly annoying.

Reddit would have you think that WE MUST CHOOSE IF WE WILL EVER ACCEPT NINTENDO SPONSORSHIP AGAIN OR ELSE PM MUST BE KILLED PERMANENTLY. Hence: "Community Decision Time: Deciding The Fate of Project M"

Not even all that serious.

 

[xezuru]

As much as this stuff is being an overdramatic blowout where people are suddenly popping out of their PM dungeons and screaming at the world, I do agree something has to be done about PM, it's obviously a big hit and discouraging that multiple biggest tournaments in the world cast it off lists it was previously on.

Honestly I don't see why Nintendo would do anything bad, everything in the game that's licensed is directly referenced characters and items that are already in Brawl. You have to buy Brawl to even play PM as it says on it's own website, it doesn't support some rampant piracy spree.

As far as monetization, PMDT make zero money at all from PM, not even donations go to them. When it comes to streams and tournaments, one of the biggest things when it comes to Streaming and Let's Play content is that monetization is allowed for video games "the players" do not own, because of fair use, one of the biggest parts about this recently is that there's a distinction made that, this is original content because they're taking a playable game, and now it's in video form, enjoyed as another form of media content and taken as original (with their video production and commentary ect). As far as tournaments go, obviously PM isn't expecting Nintendo money, but it's literally the same as every other game in that aspect, it's crowd funded for the competition aspect.

Edit:
Also interesting from lawyers perspective:
https://twitter.com/ultradavid/status/562540229223936000

 

[chaosblade]

I don't think anything really needs to be done. It's blatantly obvious that things are going on behind the scenes between Smash community heads like D1 and GimR and Nintendo. These folks obviously want to stay on Nintendo's good side, and that means PM is going to get shunned. Period. To think these people are all acting strange regarding PM and either not talking about/referencing it, streaming it, or whatever, and it's entirely a coincidence... it makes no sense.

There are people out there who basically want "closure" and to know from the source that Nintendo is pushing PM out, but it's not necessary. It's already obvious that it's happening. So now deal with it. Play PM. Enjoy it. Just like Melee, it's not going to die until its player base stops supporting it. PM just has more of an uphill battle because it's never going to be in the spotlight.

 

[Mit-]

I just don't think it requires some major call to action or decision. It's up to the PM scene to remain relevant and active and try and host tournaments or request their game be featured at their favorite events. It's up to TOs to host tournaments that feature the game if they so desire.

What is the decision/fate that needs to be determined here? Keep the game active and it will live. Unfortunately it won't make most of the largest events, especially FGC events that can't afford to host 3 Smash events. Smash 4 and Melee are currently the two most popular Smash games.

Nintendo sponsored tournaments likely won't feature PM but that shouldn't affect its "fate." Nintendo isn't going to sponsor any significant percentage of the hundreds, if not thousands, of Smash tournaments regularly held across the country every year.

 

[xezuru]

To me, it's not anything about some PM fate battle, its just a sad notion that Nintendo has big hands over the community, and they don't have to support PM at all, and I'm not expecting it; but PM is just a mod, was always advertised and shown as such, and people just want confidence in seeing that even if PM is a side tournament, Nintendo would not throw a C&D at an unmonetized modification, a problem that any modded game can have, that's what it comes down to, and that's what can be very telling about the relationship.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

PM is going to be suffocated to some extent as a natural consequence of the Smash scene getting more attention from Nintendo. The unfortunate thing is that Nintendo doesn't really even have to put the hammer down in order for this to happen; people with a big stake in the scene are just going to be cautious because of the possibility that that could happen.

I mean, there's a reason why it's getting handed off to C-tier FGC streamers, in the cases when it's even streamed at all. I've neither asked for nor received explicit info on this from people who are actually making the decisions, but I don't think it's hard to read between the lines.

 

[Tom_Cody]

The reddit Smash community is so horrible.

 

[xezuru]

PM is going to be suffocated to some extent as a natural consequence of the Smash scene getting more attention from Nintendo. The unfortunate thing is that Nintendo doesn't really even have to put the hammer down in order for this to happen; people with a big stake in the scene are just going to be cautious because of the possibility that that could happen.

I mean, there's a reason why it's getting handed off to C-tier FGC streamers, in the cases when it's even streamed at all.

Looks like I'm going to be watching you and FunkyP all that weekend.

Psssst.... Thank yooooouuu

Edit: fuck me I even watched some of it.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

That event happened a month ago.

 

[J@hranimo]

For what it's worth I guess, Sky explains himself and the tweet in this reddit post.

This is so annoying lol.

 

[theprodigy]

PM is going to be suffocated to some extent as a natural consequence of the Smash scene getting more attention from Nintendo. The unfortunate thing is that Nintendo doesn't really even have to put the hammer down in order for this to happen; people with a big stake in the scene are just going to be cautious because of the possibility that that could happen.

I mean, there's a reason why it's getting handed off to C-tier FGC streamers, in the cases when it's even streamed at all. I've neither asked for nor received explicit info on this from people who are actually making the decisions, but I don't think it's hard to read between the lines.

That subtle self-promotion

Kappa

 

[Metal B]

To me, it's not anything about some PM fate battle, its just a sad notion that Nintendo has big hands over the community, and they don't have to support PM at all, and I'm not expecting it; but PM is just a mod, was always advertised and shown as such, and people just want confidence in seeing that even if PM is a side tournament, Nintendo would not throw a C&D at an unmonetized modification, a problem that any modded game can have, that's what it comes down to, and that's what can be very telling about the relationship.

No, PM is also a hack, which is why Nintendo can never accept or support it. Otherwise they would support and encourage the hacking of there hardware. Nintendo simply ignoring and don't interacting with the mod, is the best the company can do for the community. Otherwise they HAVE to try and sue or stop the support of the mod.

 

[xezuru]

No, PM is also a hack, which is why Nintendo can never accept or support it. Otherwise they would support and encourage the hacking of there hardware. Nintendo simply ignoring and don't interacting with the mod, is the best the company can do for the community. Otherwise they HAVE to try and sue or stop the support of the mod.

You don't have to hack the hardware AT ALL. PM is in the SD memory card, that's it. There's Zero Hardware modification required.

 

[FyreWulff]

I also fail to see PM getting much oxygen at events where you can play Actual Melee and Actual Brawl. When you have both of those, who wants to play a midpoint between Melee and Brawl when you have you know.. both of them?

Maybe if there was a Brawl mod that dunno, did something super unique and different than any other Smash, you could more strongly justify it's presence.

Perhaps the PM community should start running PM-only events.

 

[Cody_D165]

You don't have to hack the hardware AT ALL. PM is in the SD memory card, that's it. There's Zero Hardware modification required.

It's still loaded through the exact same methods one can use to install the homebrew channel, which remains a massive red flag for Nintendo, I'm sure.

 

[xezuru]

The same methods are used to load the Tournament specific builds, map select, and custom music as well, it's pretty universal around all Brawl.

 

[Nanashrew]

VGBootCamp

#Apex2015 had 2.5 Million unique viewers through out the entire event (On our channel)

https://twitter.com/VGBootCamp/status/562656772620840960

Smashboards

Looks like we've crossed the 175,000 member threshold with more than 2,000 new members joining during Apex. Welcome to the home of Smash.

https://twitter.com/Smashboards/status/562661993573011457

 

[Metal B]

You don't have to hack the hardware AT ALL. PM is in the SD memory card, that's it. There's Zero Hardware modification required.

This is still one really stupid 'excuse', which will always be thrown around! You're still using an exploit to HACK the console and trick it into using data, it isn't supposed to understand. The mod was build on HACKED hardware with many exploits to get it to this point. It is like crafting your own security card to enter a building and justify, since you technically we aren't trespassing and used the front door.
Next point is properly, how Nintendo still makes money with Brawl thanks to PM. Even so they don't ship the game anymore and all are either second hand or left overs.

The same methods are used to load the Tournament specific builds, map select, and custom music as well, it's pretty universal around all Brawl.

And what? This is Nintendo simply looking away, as long as nobody makes a big deal out of it.

 

[Spuck-uk]

You don't have to hack the hardware AT ALL. PM is in the SD memory card, that's it. There's Zero Hardware modification required.

Thats still a hack. That's the definition of a hack.

 

[xezuru]

The point isn't Nintendo doesn't make money, they don't do that in Melee either, the point is a distinction that people cut straight to PM just wants to replace Brawl and delete it from memory, it's an addition to Brawl, that's the distinction.

 

[chaosblade]

I also fail to see PM getting much oxygen at events where you can play Actual Melee and Actual Brawl. When you have both of those, who wants to play a midpoint between Melee and Brawl when you have you know.. both of them?

I dunno, over 800 people entered Smash 4 so clearly there is interest.

 

[Fidelis Hodie]

The point isn't Nintendo doesn't make money, they don't do that in Melee either, the point is a distinction that people cut straight to PM just wants to replace Brawl and delete it from memory, it's an addition to Brawl, that's the distinction.

To the fans maybe, but in the eyes of the law that won't really fly if Nintendo did want to do something to it. There's a big difference.

 

[Azure J]

Sky is right. It's not the classiest way to put it, but he's right. It's how I've felt since PM was announced to be a thing.

Can't agree. PM scratched an itch for more Smash game play and managed to legitimize itself through the continued passion the developers had for making said game play stand out against the official releases. I'll never agree with anyone stating that Project M is something more than a really well done mod though, as a large majority of the ground work (models and assets primarily) was handed to them, but I've never found the project to be a situation born out of arrogance.

 

[dmcAxle]

A little off topic, but is there a community thread just for Smash Melee on Neogaf? I can't find it at all even if I use search.

 

[xezuru]

I looked pretty hard for a Melee OT, and didn't find one, from what I can tell there's a SMASH4 OT, and a bit of a dusty PM OT waiting to be updated for next patch.

Best bet is to go to the Fighting Game Weekly threads i guess.

 

[Cody_D165]

A little off topic, but is there a community thread just for Smash Melee on Neogaf? I can't find it at all even if I use search.

I've actually wondered this for awhile myself. Somebody should make one. Or maybe just a thread for all general Smash discussion.

 

[curlyfriski]

I also fail to see PM getting much oxygen at events where you can play Actual Melee and Actual Brawl. When you have both of those, who wants to play a midpoint between Melee and Brawl when you have you know.. both of them?

Maybe if there was a Brawl mod that dunno, did something super unique and different than any other Smash, you could more strongly justify it's presence.

Perhaps the PM community should start running PM-only events.

This seems like an odd point to make when PM has been thriving for a while now. It was the second most popular smash game in the competitive community before Smash 4 and got played at all the major tourneys last year. The game has been getting oxygen for a while now. Also it isn't a midway point between Brawl and Melee, it's a Melee style game with an expanded roster and a few evolutions in how it is played. Think of it as a straightforward sequel to Melee where Brawl was a major departure.

I've actually wondered this for awhile myself. Somebody should make one. Or maybe just a thread for all general Smash discussion.

A general smash community would get super ugly fast.

 

[Professor Beef]

Can't agree. PM scratched an itch for more Smash game play and managed to legitimize itself through the continued passion the developers had for making said game play stand out against the official releases. I'll never agree with anyone stating that Project M is something more than a really well done mod though, as a large majority of the ground work (models and assets primarily) was handed to them, but I've never found the project to be a situation born out of arrogance.

Like I said earlier: it may have grown into something else, but the origins of PM were ALWAYS "we can do Brawl better than Nintendo can."

 

[chaosblade]

Like I said earlier: it may have grown into something else, but the origins of PM were ALWAYS "we can do Brawl better than Nintendo can."

Wasn't the origin of PM "let's add Melee physics to Brawl?" The core PM team was originally modders from Brawl Plus if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Daouzin]

Like I said earlier: it may have grown into something else, but the origins of PM were ALWAYS "we can do Brawl better than Nintendo can."

You keep saying this and you're still wrong. Counter Point 2) Nintendo never even intended to make what Melee has become, Melee was lightning in a bottle. How is it arrogant to make something no one else is making or even trying to make.

Man, you just like to be salty.

Wasn't the origin of PM "let's add Melee physics to Brawl?" The core PM team was originally modders from Brawl Plus if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, ignore the bait. He just has some weird world view he tries to inject. When Occam's Razor can put it simply, "People really liked Melee." Haha

 

[Tomohawk]

Looks like some guy whose a copyright lawyer is saying PM is not illegal, but unauthorized. What I understand this to mean is they can cease and desist but not sue.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2unqlw/ultradavid_weighs_in_on_pm/

Edit: I may be remembering wrong but didn't PM start off as trying to put melee falco in brawl.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Wasn't the origin of PM "let's add Melee physics to Brawl?" The core PM team was originally modders from Brawl Plus if I'm not mistaken.

I want to preface this by saying that I really don't have much of an opinion either way about Project M. So, I'm honestly doing my best here as someone who really isn't a pro Smash insider to assess this in as nuanced a fashion as I can. I play more Smash 4 than anything just because it's new and the easiest thing to play online, but I promise that I'm not advocating for or against any particular faction of the Smash community.

With that out of the way, I don't think this really rebuts the claim as strongly as you think. Mind you, there's room for interpretation here, but I think modding can aim to achieve any of several different goals. I'll break them down into 3 categories in a haphazard fashion:

1.) Enhance or tweak non-core aspects of the experience. These are things like adding higher resolutions, better textures, more aspect ratios and so on. This might also include UI tweaks where applicable, or unlocking more options in the menu to allow for more flexibility to the existing rules in the menu. Except for things that might affect multiplayer balance, I think these are mostly harmless from a developer perspective.

2.) Take the existing game and throw it completely out the window to make something completely different. By this, I mean something like take the Smash engine and turn it into a pure platformer or something else completely different that isn't a fighting game. You know, just show off what the engine can do by expanding the playground. Like 1 above, I think these are mostly harmless from a developer perspective.

3.) Change the core gameplay. Sometimes, this might involve benevolent bug fixes and be a welcome change by a team that just doesn't have the resources or infrastructure to officially fix the old thing. But I think there is room to interpret this as a challenge to the intended design when not tweaking something that is objectively broken. And I don't mean "objectively broken" in the "some fans don't like it" sense, but in the "actually does not work as intended" sense.

So when you ask: "Wasn't the origin of PM 'let's add Melee physics to Brawl?'", I don't think that gets around the idea of how it can be seen as an affront to the intended design of Brawl. Yes, I think it can be seen in a flattering light that a dedicated group of people wants to put in the time and effort to make a game play like something that you've previously made, but if you're someone that is proud of Brawl and proud of Smash 4 and sees these iterations as improvements on the past work, it's not surprising that a group of people looking to undo those new intended changes can be regarded as a slap in the face.

I don't think this is an easy thing to address. I'm not saying that Nintendo shouldn't try, but I don't know if it's easy to please everyone here. Whether it ultimately succeeds or fails in the long term, I think in the short term Nintendo HAS to focus on Smash 4 as much as possible. After a certain amount of time has passed, they might be able to evaluate the next move forward, but I think they're kind of stuck right now having to push 4 as the future of the series. They certainly can't acknowledge Project M, and I don't think they can/should try to kill off Melee, but I also don't know what their options are to please the tournament community.

Long term, I think there are some interesting considerations that probably won't happen anyway. One is to make the Melee HD game the Melee fans want so much. The other would be to resuscitate a dying Smash 4 community (if and when it happens) by officially supporting some sort of Project M-like DLC for Smash 4. You know, try to iterate on Smash the same way Capcom does with Street Fighter. I don't think this'll ever happen, but even at an optimistic level, I think we're a good year away from anything like this being planned. For now, I don't think there's really anything Nintendo can do but try and focus on Smash 4 as THE Smash game.

I'm distracted with work and I kind of feel like I'm rambling and not really making a point, so I'll just stop here.

 

[theprodigy]

I just have one thing to say

ESAM's twitter right now is hilarious

 

[Anth0ny]

I've been thinking of making a Melee OT for a while.

Unfortunately I'm bad at making threads. I have an idea of what I'd like to see in the OT first post, though.

 

[PhoenixDawn]

I don't really like to get involved with any of this bickering between fans of the different Smash games, but I do have to say that the "Melee" chant while Zero was getting his reward for Smash 4 was unbelievably disrespectful. I mean I can see not liking to watch a different game, but to just throw someone's work completely down the drain and ignore their achievement for your own selfish wants is terrible. Hopefully people see that as a mistake and change rather than turn it into an even greater shitshow (unfortunately it seems like it's going the latter...)

With regards to a "Melee HD/competetive mod to Smash4", I highly doubt Nintendo will do it just due to the fact that it seems like Sakurai is pretty much done with the game and feels it is perfect. Of course, it could be best for the game's competitive future if it was handed off to Namco or some other team for balance patches, but I'm sure Nintendo, especially the Japanese branch, would feel that's disrespectful to Sakurai and the original team's work.

 

[Mit-]

With regards to a "Melee HD/competetive mod to Smash4", I highly doubt Nintendo will do it just due to the fact that it seems like Sakurai is pretty much done with the game and feels it is perfect. Of course, it could be best for the game's competitive future if it was handed off to Namco or some other team for balance patches, but I'm sure Nintendo, especially the Japanese branch, would feel that's disrespectful to Sakurai and the original team's work.

Yeah. Hopefully Sakurai doesn't make the next game and they embrace the competitive potential for the series.

I think Brawl+ is actually a good template for making the series have more competitive depth but still really easy to play for newcomers. It had Brawl style airdodge, aerial momentum that matched your ground speed, minimal landing lag on aerial attacks (no l-canceling, just minimal lag on all aerials automatically), dash dancing, input buffering (not sure if it was as crazy as Brawl's however), and more overall hitstun. It had combos, the raised hitstun led to more tech chases, and you had pretty good control over your character, without the tech skill requirements of techniques such as wavedashing and l-canceling.

Make it happen Harada-san.

 

[Professor Beef]

You keep saying this and you're still wrong. Counter Point 2) Nintendo never even intended to make what Melee has become, Melee was lightning in a bottle. How is it arrogant to make something no one else is making or even trying to make.

Man, you just like to be salty.



Yeah, ignore the bait. He just has some weird world view he tries to inject. When Occam's Razor can put it simply, "People really liked Melee." Haha

I'm not salty. I'm only explaining how a lot of people viewed PM when it was first announced. People were sickened by Brawl and all the bad decisions that went into it, but also wanted an updated Melee which they were mad that Brawl was not.

 

[xezuru]

...I don't think this is an easy thing to address. I'm not saying that Nintendo shouldn't try, but I don't know if it's easy to please everyone here.

As far as PM's intention goes, the PMDT's intention has been clear a vocal from the beginning, way before SMASH4 was even out they PMDT were always very clear that they were very happy to coexist with SMASH4 and Brawl and whatever. Their distinct message sent directly was something along the lines of: "Project M is a loveletter to what we think of Competitive Smash, and Smash 4 is a loveletter of what Nintendo thinks of it, either way we all get more smash." It's very clear in devlogs PMDT have put out that worked very carefully since the beggining to avoid trying to infringe on Nintendo copywrite, every single asset is chosen and only chosen if it has some form of content and license already within vanilla Brawl.

Intentions aside, what gets me the most is people's argument being that PM is some sort of shot fired at Nintendo, but worse than all their logic in the conversation is that Nintendo find PM arrogant to change Brawl. I've been a huge supporter of gaming for so long, and modding as been part of the world so long that I can't even understand this. Modding was always a part of the industry, fans create more content for the game or thing they love so much and it's the same for every media type whether it's remixes, video productions, photoshops, or mods; especially when the original is undamaged and playable at all times. I find this logic even worse, suggesting that Nintendo would be arrogant enough to harbor hatred to change anything they make, especially telling if it was true.

Like I've been saying, it's just a mod or whatever you want to call it, it's not some Sakurai-COUNTER replacement, and all it is, is the developers highlight of what they love in EVERY smash game, not just some Brawl Recycler. Taunt Canceling, Double Jump Cancelling, Movesets and ect from 64. Reverse Aerial Rush, Wave Bouncing, DACUS, Foot Stools, Aerial Glide Tossing, ect from Brawl. The mod has many things from many smash games even things as simple as getting effect sparks on walljumps (from Smash 64). I can't understand the hate wether you play it or not, of a fan made piece of work that had so much time put in it, just to play smash.

I've been thinking of making a Melee OT for a while.

Unfortunately I'm bad at making threads. I have an idea of what I'd like to see in the OT first post, though.

I would be down for the OP and helping out with anything needed for it, haven't made original graphics content in a while but If you need simple things of such, and mabey some other melee resources I would like to see it in the OP and see if maaaybeee I could help out.

I just have one thing to say

ESAM's twitter right now is hilarious

What the hell is he doing he's making like hundreds of posts about... wat.

Is there a video of the Smash 4 Doubles finale / grand finale anywhere? I missed it on Sunday and would love to see it. I have never watched any competitive Smash before Apex 2015 and while I liked watching the Smash 4 singles quite a lot, I found the doubles matches to be really awesome.

TeamSp00ky is uploading SMASH4 videos now on his Youtube, he should have everything except SMASH4 singles top 8 which is on VGBootCamp which'll come later as well. Both of these have a twitch archive if you want to scan through and watch the whole VOD now.

 

[Blarg]

I second the request for a Melee OT.

 

[StrikerObi]

Is there a video of the Smash 4 Doubles finale / grand finale anywhere? I missed it on Sunday and would love to see it. I have never watched any competitive Smash before Apex 2015 and while I liked watching the Smash 4 singles quite a lot, I found the doubles matches to be really awesome.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Intentions aside, what gets me the most is people's argument being that PM is some sort of shot fired at Nintendo, but worse than all their logic in the conversation is that Nintendo find PM arrogant to change Brawl. I've been a huge supporter of gaming for so long, and modding as been part of the world so long that I can't even understand this. Modding was always a part of the industry, fans create more content for the game or thing they love so much and it's the same for every media type whether it's remixes, video productions, photoshops, or mods; especially when the original is undamaged and playable at all times. I find this logic even worse, suggesting that Nintendo would be arrogant enough to harbor hatred to change anything they make, especially telling if it was true.

Like I said, I'm trying to approach this in a nuanced fashion and not really take a side. I just like Smash. I like Smash 4. I like Melee. I'd probably like Project M if I had much of a reason to play it. So I'm not deriding Nintendo or Melee fans or Project M fans or trying to put words into people's mouths.

As to your point about modding, I did try to address that. Not all modding is created equal. One person's "High Resolution" mod isn't the same thing as somebody else's "Rebalance everything" mod. And how you interpret the merits of a particular mod probably depends on where you sit in terms of assessing the original design, and what impact the mod has on the design. Further, one can call it a love letter, and that may indeed be sincere, but when it competes with current commercial titles, I can see why it might not be regarded with as a flattering thing in terms of what the core idea represents.

Again, I am not personally saying that it's an affront to Brawl or Smash 4. I'm not saying Nintendo does or should see it as an affront to Brawl or Smash 4. I'm just saying that I understand the argument in terms of why Nintendo may not love the existence of Project M. People are complicated and I don't like generalizing large groups of people. So I don't like categorizing people as strictly X and not Y fans or saying that all X fans are like this and all Y are like that. However, I don't think it's unfair to say that there is some derision at the direction Brawl and 4 went, and that's the direction Nintendo has chosen to go. At least while 4 is still fairly new, I don't know if Nintendo can really try and placate everyone and embrace the older playstyles that the competitive Smash community adores without hurting Smash 4.

 

[xezuru]

Like I said, I'm trying to approach this in a nuanced fashion and not really take a side. I just like Smash. I like Smash 4. I like Melee. I'd probably like Project M if I had much of a reason to play it. So I'm not deriding Nintendo or Melee fans or Project M fans or trying to put words into people's mouths.

As to your point about modding, I did try to address that. Not all modding is created equal. One person's "High Resolution" mod isn't the same thing as somebody else's "Rebalance everything" mod. And how you interpret the merits of a particular mod probably depends on where you sit in terms of assessing the original design, and what impact the mod has on the design. Further, one can call it a love letter, and that may indeed be sincere, but when it competes with current commercial titles, I can see why it might not be regarded with as a flattering thing in terms of what the core idea represents.

Again, I am not personally saying that it's an affront to Brawl or Smash 4. I'm not saying Nintendo does or should see it as an affront to Brawl or Smash 4. I'm just saying that I understand the argument in terms of why Nintendo may not love the existence of Project M. People are complicated and I don't like generalizing large groups of people. So I don't like categorizing people as strictly X and not Y fans or saying that all X fans are like this and all Y are like that. However, I don't think it's unfair to say that there is some derision at the direction Brawl and 4 went, and that's the direction Nintendo has chosen to go. At least while 4 is still fairly new, I don't know if Nintendo can really try and placate everyone and embrace the older playstyles that the competitive Smash community adores without hurting Smash 4.

I understand you not trying to butt heads, and I'm not trying to either, but there's misconceptions all around and all I'm saying is that the PMDT is very clear and vocal about their goals of just wanting more smash either way. They buy and enjoy Smash4 as well as anybody else, and any misconception of their message is truely Nintendo's fault for not going straight to the devs themselves, seeing them and the people supporting any of the games, because PMDT would be down if Nintendo would give them a chance. I just want to see Nintendo out there, they don't have to support it at all, I just want it to be safe from a Hammer being swung, because they come in peace, and I think they could benefit like Yoshinori Ono to actually see and talk to the community they've grown over the years face to face.

From Project M 3.5 Release Blog:

With Project M v3.5 now released be sure to also keep an eye out for Smash Bros. for Wii U launching next Friday. After this flood of development work we’re excited to be able to not only share v3.5 with you, but take a break and join the rest of you in exploring a whole new smash environment together. With several new smash titles just released and an incoming surge of new players, it’s a great time to be a part of the smash community. Please help us to lead the community through this period of expansion by promoting shared values of respect, inclusion, and dedication to the scene. Thank you for your support!