I honestly can't imagine using a machine for productivity reasons without having a mouse. You can certainly do most things with touch. It's just not as efficient. Even basic things like selecting text is faster with a mouse.
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Apple iPad Pro |OT|
- Thread starter EroticSushi
- Start date
I honestly can't imagine using a machine for productivity reasons without having a mouse. You can certainly do most things with touch. It's just not as efficient. Even basic things like selecting text is faster with a mouse.
nicoga3000
Saint Nic
Is there a list of features available? I want to know what options I'd have.
freenudemacusers
Member
I can't seem to find a comprehensive list. Strange.
Edit: best I could find, I assume it is up to date
https://support.office.com/en-us/ar...-Windows-f6172200-137a-4650-9d95-1915b41c3fbe
draughn101
Member
I think I'm going to get one of these with TMobile on Wednesday. I love my SP3, but tablet mode, which I used most often wasn't great, and most of the apps weren't great either.
But you can use Office for free on an iPad Air 2? Since it's barely under the 10 inch threshold?
Yeah, free editing and basic creation on the IPad and iPhones, except the Pro. It's weird.
nicoga3000
Saint Nic
Thanks. The lack of features is pretty intense. I can get around some of the lack of conditional formatting issues via formulas, but only up to a certain point.
I'll have to try it on my iPad 2 this week before deciding if the Pro can really be used for work.
They're trying to hold on to their monopoly in the enterprise while not becoming irrelevant on small mobile devices and tablets to stuff like iWork and Google Docs. So more "serious work" devices require the sub, and phones and primarily media consumption devices don't require it. It's an odd strategy. I use office on my iPad but if I were to get a Pro I would just use something other than office, I would never pay a sub for it when there are so many good free alternatives.
Ha, I plan to do the same thing. Mine should be here in 3-4 weeks and Best Buy return policy is 45 days. I plan to return it once the keyboard is here as well. Great minds think alike, or something.
Mine broke within 7 months
That's in warranty isn't it?
killertofu
Member
Idk I vaguely looked on Microsoft's website but couldn't really find anything substantial.
Then I found an Apply keyboard laying around my house so I've just been using the stand and that keyboard -___ -
bodine1231
Member
It runs perfectly. Most of my cards are gold and even with all the animations it stays butter smooth.
Shogmaster
Member
Yeesh! That took some doing.
Anyways, my impressions of the Pencil.
Pros:
- Very low Initial Insertion Force. I'd say in line with Wacom's 1~3 grams IIF. Noticeably lower than Surface Pro 3 and Surface 3's N-Trig Duo Sense 2 pens. Don't know how the new Surface Pro 4 and Surface Book pens are, but I remember they are being all that different than the previous Duo Sense 2 pens.
- Tilt works great and is supported in all apps in some form. Since tilt feature is in all Pencils, all the devs will support it from the get go. The way tilt sensor works is seamless and smooth. Extreme angles are detected well.
- Very high resolution projected capacitor layer sensor grid. Drawing slow 45 degree diagonal lines produces very straight lines, None of the small wobbles seen on N-Trig or Wacom Active ES tablets. I would say going by the diagonal line test, the grid is maybe double the resolution of N-Trig and Wacom AES.
- Latency is minimal. Having said that, it's nothing special by any means. My Surface 3 with Atom CPU has slightly more latency with similar canvas and brush sizes, but it's not night and day by any stretch. Any Windows tablets using Core M and above with Wacom or N-Trig will have similar low latency as the iPad Pro on similar canvas size.
Cons:
- Very slippery tip on screen feel. I usually prefer hard plastic on glass drawing feel, but this is especially slippery. Whatever plastic film they are using on the Pencil tip is like almost Teflon slick. I think many who want paper texture may be turned off by it.
- Pencil tip material is delicate and prone to wear. A little kid before me was going to town with the Pencil on the screen and he wore down the a small spot on the Pencil tip. You can noticeably feel that spot catching as you draw.
- Pencil tip is a bit more blunt than I'm use to. It's not thick by any stretch, but it is a thicker tip than the Wacom and N-Trig pens. This is a compromise made to allow pressure control while at extreme angles with the tilt sensor. Not a huge deal but noticeable.
- No buttons on the Pencil sucks for pros. I just couldn't get comfortable drawing on the thing because undo and other functions were cumbersome to get to. On my Windows tablets, I have undo and TAB mapped to my pen buttons, allowing me to correct mistake much faster. With the Pencil, I had to slow myself way down.
I think iPad Pro with the Pencil is ideal for beginners to the digital art arena that are looking for almost exact equivalent experience of pencil or pen on paper on the iPad. The stick surface feel aside, the tilt sensor mimics the side of the pencil paradigm pretty damn well. Complete lack of buttons on the Pencil sort of enforces this paper mimicking paradigm even more. For digital art pros with extensive workflows that maximizes the digital medium, this probably not the tablet for you. You need to simplify your process to enjoy the iPad Pro and the Apple Pencil.
Even the nicely implemented tilt feature is not as much of a killer feature as I thought it would be. I never really used the tilt brushes on the Cintiq because they were so few and far between, and thus I eventually decided that Tablet PCs with tilt-less pens were fine for my workflow. So I'm use to doing my work without it. Having used iPad Pro and Apple Pencil's implementation, I think it's one of those wow demo features that has less impact on one's workflow. The way the tilt is implemented in all the software I've seen so far is pretty rigid, following the pencil paradigm. Also, many of the other brushes dictate that the tilt is only for size expression change. If I want a texture brush at certain size, the apps are dictating that I have to use the Pencil at a certain extreme angle. That's too constricting for my taste. I personally would only be able to use iPad Pro as a initial loose sketching pad and not much else.
So if you are looking for a digital sketching pad, iPad Pro would be a good choice. Anything beyond that, it need much more work IMO.
Anyways, my impressions of the Pencil.
Pros:
- Very low Initial Insertion Force. I'd say in line with Wacom's 1~3 grams IIF. Noticeably lower than Surface Pro 3 and Surface 3's N-Trig Duo Sense 2 pens. Don't know how the new Surface Pro 4 and Surface Book pens are, but I remember they are being all that different than the previous Duo Sense 2 pens.
- Tilt works great and is supported in all apps in some form. Since tilt feature is in all Pencils, all the devs will support it from the get go. The way tilt sensor works is seamless and smooth. Extreme angles are detected well.
- Very high resolution projected capacitor layer sensor grid. Drawing slow 45 degree diagonal lines produces very straight lines, None of the small wobbles seen on N-Trig or Wacom Active ES tablets. I would say going by the diagonal line test, the grid is maybe double the resolution of N-Trig and Wacom AES.
- Latency is minimal. Having said that, it's nothing special by any means. My Surface 3 with Atom CPU has slightly more latency with similar canvas and brush sizes, but it's not night and day by any stretch. Any Windows tablets using Core M and above with Wacom or N-Trig will have similar low latency as the iPad Pro on similar canvas size.
Cons:
- Very slippery tip on screen feel. I usually prefer hard plastic on glass drawing feel, but this is especially slippery. Whatever plastic film they are using on the Pencil tip is like almost Teflon slick. I think many who want paper texture may be turned off by it.
- Pencil tip material is delicate and prone to wear. A little kid before me was going to town with the Pencil on the screen and he wore down the a small spot on the Pencil tip. You can noticeably feel that spot catching as you draw.
- Pencil tip is a bit more blunt than I'm use to. It's not thick by any stretch, but it is a thicker tip than the Wacom and N-Trig pens. This is a compromise made to allow pressure control while at extreme angles with the tilt sensor. Not a huge deal but noticeable.
- No buttons on the Pencil sucks for pros. I just couldn't get comfortable drawing on the thing because undo and other functions were cumbersome to get to. On my Windows tablets, I have undo and TAB mapped to my pen buttons, allowing me to correct mistake much faster. With the Pencil, I had to slow myself way down.
I think iPad Pro with the Pencil is ideal for beginners to the digital art arena that are looking for almost exact equivalent experience of pencil or pen on paper on the iPad. The stick surface feel aside, the tilt sensor mimics the side of the pencil paradigm pretty damn well. Complete lack of buttons on the Pencil sort of enforces this paper mimicking paradigm even more. For digital art pros with extensive workflows that maximizes the digital medium, this probably not the tablet for you. You need to simplify your process to enjoy the iPad Pro and the Apple Pencil.
Even the nicely implemented tilt feature is not as much of a killer feature as I thought it would be. I never really used the tilt brushes on the Cintiq because they were so few and far between, and thus I eventually decided that Tablet PCs with tilt-less pens were fine for my workflow. So I'm use to doing my work without it. Having used iPad Pro and Apple Pencil's implementation, I think it's one of those wow demo features that has less impact on one's workflow. The way the tilt is implemented in all the software I've seen so far is pretty rigid, following the pencil paradigm. Also, many of the other brushes dictate that the tilt is only for size expression change. If I want a texture brush at certain size, the apps are dictating that I have to use the Pencil at a certain extreme angle. That's too constricting for my taste. I personally would only be able to use iPad Pro as a initial loose sketching pad and not much else.
So if you are looking for a digital sketching pad, iPad Pro would be a good choice. Anything beyond that, it need much more work IMO.
eyeball_kid
Member
I just don't agree with this at all. You're welcome to your opinion, but it's an entirely subjective one based on your personal workflow. I never used the buttons on my Wacom pens much aside from the eraser, so the lack of them on the Pencil certainly won't compromise their usability for me. I'm sure that apps will have easy ways to undo with your other hand, something that's much more straightforward with a tablet where the drawing surface and UI are integrated.
You do realize that developers have only had access to the Pencil API for a few weeks, and no one has had hardware until now? (And many still don't have a Pencil, like everyone else) Improvements to the apps will happen as developers are able to see firsthand how the Pencil responds and how the tilt feels.
freenudemacusers
Member
Good pencil review, it sounds like what I want/need out of such an object. I wonder if there will be a pencil 2 some time in the future if this catches on in a major way.
Shogmaster
Member
Well I guess the whole definition of professional workflow varies from person to person, so YMMV obviously applies.
I will say this though: The 3 finger scrub undo employed by Adobe is as good as any method I can think of, but it's simply no match for convenience of having a button on the pen mapped to the keystroke.
Let me clarify a bit more what I mean by my assertion. With the focus of iPad being ease of use and simple UI, I don't see devs allowing types of pen customization that would make the tilt function more flexible for the user.
On Clip Studio Paint, you can customize the brush functions to this degree:
This level of brush customizing requires mouse and very complex UI, something iOS simply is not suited for.
Shogmaster
Member
None of the MS Stores have pens with the various tips to try. I think I have to buy the nibs myself to do it at the store, lol.
You can obviously do it with the Pencil tip, but the real questions is, will Apple allow that level of brush customization when it goes straight against the whole ease of use directive?
Yea the cons you listed are the reason I went and bought a surface book instead. Best decision I ever made.
Well I guess the whole definition of professional workflow varies from person to person, so YMMV obviously applies.
I will say this though: The 3 finger scrub undo employed by Adobe is as good as any method I can think of, but it's simply no match for convenience of having a button on the pen mapped to the keystroke.
Let me clarify a bit more what I mean by my assertion. With the focus of iPad being ease of use and simple UI, I don't see devs allowing types of pen customization that would make the tilt function more flexible for the user.
On Clip Studio Paint, you can customize the brush functions to this degree:
This level of brush customizing requires mouse and very complex UI, something iOS simply is not suited for.
If you want the definite app for iPad to do Digital Production I would recommend Procreate. Of all the apps out there, Procreate seems the only one that lets you customize a lot of the brushes the way you do in Photoshop or Sketchbook. They even have the ability to emulate on how Photoshop brushes work, especially in regards to how paint is applied on the canvas. Not sure if they let you customize to the same extent you showed here but you can take a look at the Procreate Handbook see if it fits your needs: Procreate Handbook
The brush settings description start at around page 61.
Shogmaster
Member
Actually, I was really excited to try out Procreate tweaked for the Pencil. Unfortunately, it was not one of the demo apps. Very shortsighted on Apple's part IMO.
For many artists, iPad Pro will be a Procreate only machine. I'm sure of it.
Having said that, Procreate's brush setting doesn't come close to Clip Studio Paint's. The gif I made above is not even all of it. I didn't even bother with the pressure and tilt expression setting with the adjustable curve graph.
Apples 'simple to use' isn't a forced doctrine across all apps. If a developer wants to make an app wih a deep, complex customisation section for eg drawing, then they are free to do so. They haven't previously due to the marketplace positioning of iPad as a consumption device. They still might not with iPad pro depending on sales volumes and whether people would be willing to pay more for their apps. But they can if they want.
If Apple added pencil support to iPad Air 3 next year, that would probably encourage more devs to support it fully. I hope they do add it - iPad Air is a good enough size for hobbyist artists and note taking.
Shogmaster
Member
I'm sure that iPad Air 3 will gain Apple Pencil compatibility, even if it doesn't get A9X. A9 is plenty fast enough for lag free Apple Pencil experience. The only thing preventing iPad Air 2 from Apple Pencil IMO is the pro cap digitizer layer controller chip that has Apple Pencil connectivity programmed in. Also. I suspect that for many, the 10" size is more appealing as a portable digital sketch pad.
As for the app complexity, I don't think the mere consumption device moniker is what was preventing devs from introducing more complex UI apps (and the "pro" moniker of iPad Pro probably won't make much difference either). I think they know who their market is. iPad user base does not want complex UI IMO. One can argue chicken or the egg, but either way, Apple knows that path of success for iPad is definitely due to simplicity of use.
Well I guess the whole definition of professional workflow varies from person to person, so YMMV obviously applies.
I will say this though: The 3 finger scrub undo employed by Adobe is as good as any method I can think of, but it's simply no match for convenience of having a button on the pen mapped to the keystroke.
Let me clarify a bit more what I mean by my assertion. With the focus of iPad being ease of use and simple UI, I don't see devs allowing types of pen customization that would make the tilt function more flexible for the user.
On Clip Studio Paint, you can customize the brush functions to this degree:
This level of brush customizing requires mouse and very complex UI, something iOS simply is not suited for.
Customizing the brushes Clip Studio Paint doesn't require a mouse or keyboard on a Surface Pro, I don't know why would it be true for an iPad pro. There's a "touch" layout for touch devices like the surface pro (or ipad pro if they ever release it), which makes everything bigger and more accessible for a touch input like a finger or a pen.
It looks like this.
I've drawn stuff on CSP in my gf's SP2 with no keyboard or mouse, only the pen, and I had access to every tool and setting. I'd agree that using key shortcuts with a keyboard makes drawing faster, but a touch device like this has other advantages like pinch to zoom instantly and navigate the drawing super fast instead of a key combination for zooming in to fixed values.
They can definitely make it happen on iPad Pro if they're interested, and I would be very happy because CSP is the only program I've tried in which "paint bucket" works as it should, and I use that a lot for flat coloring. And also the brushes of course.
Don't get me wrong, more stuff for the same price is always better. It would be better if the pen came with an eraser, giving you the option to use it (or not). But I am not mad at them for choosing not to include it for the reason I mentioned earlier. It's just a "neat" thing to have, but not really useful overall.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Thanks Shog! Been waiting for your thoughts on the pencil for a while lol.
I'll be heading downtown today so hopefully I can try out the pencil myself soon.
I'll be heading downtown today so hopefully I can try out the pencil myself soon.
nicoga3000
Saint Nic
Hopefully my local Best Buy has one to try today. I don't imagine I'll be able to find one for purchase in the immediate future.
By the way, while fiddling with my ipad pro in complete silence I notice that it makes a clicking sound sometimes, as if the screen wasn't completely seated.
Should we get ready for ,what I shall call from now on, "clickgate"?
Or maybe my unit is just a lemon.
Edit: you know what, it's the home button doing the click sound, not the screen. For whatever reason the home button makes a clicking sound depending on how you press your finger against the screen. Weird, but not something I'd worry about
Should we get ready for ,what I shall call from now on, "clickgate"?
Or maybe my unit is just a lemon.
Edit: you know what, it's the home button doing the click sound, not the screen. For whatever reason the home button makes a clicking sound depending on how you press your finger against the screen. Weird, but not something I'd worry about
nicoga3000
Saint Nic
Turns out that on Jan 1, I get my own Office 365 license to use for work (so 5 installs). If I end up with an iPad Pro, I know where one of my installs is going!
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Dreamwriter
Member
it doesn't matter what Apple "knows", Apple doesn't make any rules of this type whatsoever for app developers. Apple may recommend things, but they won't reject an app that goes against those recommendations. If an app wants deep customization options for how the Pencil reacts to tilt, they are free; if a game wants to use the Pencil's tilt to simulate a car jack, they can do that too...
At worst, if you go against Apple's wishes, your app may not be considered to be a featured app.
Jugendstil
Member
I just ordered mine from Best Buy, I should have it tomorrow. I'm coming from an iPad 2, so I'm hoping to have my mind blown.
artsi
Member
I'm super hyped with all the praise the Pencil is getting, but it's not available anywhere. Sigh.
That's some nice stuff.
That's some nice stuff.
nicoga3000
Saint Nic
My local store has a 128 gig Silver. I sort of wanted Gold. I may wait until Wednesday to see if they get any others in before I commit.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Just tried the iPad pro pencil for the first time. I was very impressed!! Honestly the feel was better than my cintiq/pc setup at home. Mainly because the parallax on the cintiq is greater than the iPad pro. The tilt function is very nice! It depends on how you like to draw. I tend use the side of the pencil when in drawing on paper so it felt very natural. The thickness didn't bother me but I can see how it might bother others who are used to the smaller Wacom nibs.
Adobe sketch was not as snappy as the built in Notes app. Could be a resolution thing or the app. notes was extremely responsive, sketch had some lag regardless of brush size.
As soon as the pencil is in stock I'll probably pick one up based on the drawing feel alone. However if you're planning on using this as your main art tablet, make sure you can live without desktop apps or workflow.
This is ideal for a digital sketchbook, probably the best one I've tried. If you're planning to use this to say texture 3r models, zbrush, or working on photoshop files with tons of adjustment layers, masks etc eye get a Windows tablet.
This is the tablet I was hoping Wacom would make, instead we got a heavy ass bulky, and loud tablet that lasts for about 4 hours. Not mention a screen with horrible anti-glare screens that is comfortable to draw on.
Now Apple work on getting the pencil in stock...assholes lol.
Adobe sketch was not as snappy as the built in Notes app. Could be a resolution thing or the app. notes was extremely responsive, sketch had some lag regardless of brush size.
As soon as the pencil is in stock I'll probably pick one up based on the drawing feel alone. However if you're planning on using this as your main art tablet, make sure you can live without desktop apps or workflow.
This is ideal for a digital sketchbook, probably the best one I've tried. If you're planning to use this to say texture 3r models, zbrush, or working on photoshop files with tons of adjustment layers, masks etc eye get a Windows tablet.
This is the tablet I was hoping Wacom would make, instead we got a heavy ass bulky, and loud tablet that lasts for about 4 hours. Not mention a screen with horrible anti-glare screens that is comfortable to draw on.
Now Apple work on getting the pencil in stock...assholes lol.
seventynine
Member
Just ordered mine and should have it on Wednesday. Can't wait as my iPad 2 struggles terribly.
Disappointed there's such a long wait for the pencil though
Disappointed there's such a long wait for the pencil though
Keyser Soze
Member
Ordered an iPad Pro Grey for pick up tomorrow should I want it...
I am going to sleep on it.
I am going to sleep on it.
From an Apple Store? If so, just get it. You can play with it until January to decide whether you want to keep it.
It looks like it's easy to fall in love with it:
TIME review:
The Best Computer Apple Has Ever Made
http://time.com/4113160/ipad-pro-review/
TIME review:
The Best Computer Apple Has Ever Made
http://time.com/4113160/ipad-pro-review/
Dreamwriter
Member
What? I like my iPad Pro, but there's no way iPad Pro is better than the Apple //e was.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Your avatar is too perfect.
Just went to the Apple Store and tried it out along with the pencil and keyboard. Man, I gotta say I was blown away. I wasn't too interested before but since it came out I've been getting more excited reading the impressions. First off, yeah, it's massive. Like bigger than you expect it to be. But it's also surprisingly light, much lighter than you expect. I was able to one-hand it while doodling with the pen. Don't think I could do it for too long, but for the few minutes I was there, it was just fine.
The pen is amazing. Ridiculously accurate and fun to doodle with. And the screen is beautiful. I could really see this replacing a basic laptop. I think I could find a place for it as primarily a 2nd monitor to a MBP or something, and then as a light and portable laptop on its own for quick trips out and back. The keyboard felt great, but I agree that the keys seemed just a little too far apart for my intuition. Still, not bad at all and the way it folds into the cover and behind it is fantastic.
Can't get one myself any time soon, but it's definitely on my radar now. Really impressed.
The pen is amazing. Ridiculously accurate and fun to doodle with. And the screen is beautiful. I could really see this replacing a basic laptop. I think I could find a place for it as primarily a 2nd monitor to a MBP or something, and then as a light and portable laptop on its own for quick trips out and back. The keyboard felt great, but I agree that the keys seemed just a little too far apart for my intuition. Still, not bad at all and the way it folds into the cover and behind it is fantastic.
Can't get one myself any time soon, but it's definitely on my radar now. Really impressed.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I just messed around with one of these in an Apple store and come away truly impressed.
I feel like I saw the future of more casual personal computers. For anyone who doesn't require a visible file system or need to write code (that functionality may come in the future), this seems like it could be a genuinely valid replacement for a computer with a traditional operating system.
I must say I wasn't much of a fan of the official keyboard case, though. It seemed unwieldy as a cover for the screen and offered no protection for the back, all while being a pretty sub-par keyboard. I think I would opt for that Logitech option or just get a traditional case + a slim Bluetooth keyboard to carry around. There still seem to be some software issues that muddy the experience (software keyboard appearing sometimes, space key not registering at times, etc.), but I'm sure they'll get those sorted eventually.
The pen, too, was really impressive. I used it only a bit with the Adobe sketch app, but it felt closer to the real experience of drawing with a pencil than I've ever experienced on a digital device. I admit, I don't have a ton of experience in this area, though.
I really think this thing could be a fantastic device for people who mainly use their computers for content consumption, email, browsing, word processing, etc. It has all of the functionality you would want and it packs a lot of power, too, all while featuring a rich ecosystem of apps that were made for touch screens in mind first and foremost.
I feel like I saw the future of more casual personal computers. For anyone who doesn't require a visible file system or need to write code (that functionality may come in the future), this seems like it could be a genuinely valid replacement for a computer with a traditional operating system.
I must say I wasn't much of a fan of the official keyboard case, though. It seemed unwieldy as a cover for the screen and offered no protection for the back, all while being a pretty sub-par keyboard. I think I would opt for that Logitech option or just get a traditional case + a slim Bluetooth keyboard to carry around. There still seem to be some software issues that muddy the experience (software keyboard appearing sometimes, space key not registering at times, etc.), but I'm sure they'll get those sorted eventually.
The pen, too, was really impressive. I used it only a bit with the Adobe sketch app, but it felt closer to the real experience of drawing with a pencil than I've ever experienced on a digital device. I admit, I don't have a ton of experience in this area, though.
I really think this thing could be a fantastic device for people who mainly use their computers for content consumption, email, browsing, word processing, etc. It has all of the functionality you would want and it packs a lot of power, too, all while featuring a rich ecosystem of apps that were made for touch screens in mind first and foremost.
freenudemacusers
Member
I haven't touched my mbp since I've had this. The pros (lul) vastly outweigh the cons.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I'm really considering selling my wife's 13" MacBook Pro w/ Retina from 2014 and replacing it with a kitted out iPad Pro. She really doesn't do anything what takes advantage of Mac OS X and is already more familiar with iOS and its apps.