the reaction to Katie is until last night, there was not one ounce of acting or writing where we could be sympathetic to her downward spiral. her arc has not be handled well.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
ARROW Season 2 |OT| Back in a Flash
- Thread starter Replicant
- Start date
- Status
RellyRell28
Banned
I completely disagree. I like the whole downward spiral arc with her and think it can turn into something amazing at the end. To each it's own I guess. I just don't see the hatred
It's handled well if their intention is to make her a Villain.
Maybe they could give her the White Canary identity. That would be fun.
pulga
Banned
Wiktor
Member
I disagree with it. If they actually go with Laurel being Black Canary it will mean ignoring the whole tv show just for the sake of keeping up comic book continuity. They stuck gold with Sara, while they stepped on a mine with Laurel. At this point Laurel just isn't salvagable. You might make her better, but you will never be able to turn her into something the audience loves.
And the show has shown it's not afraid to screw up with comic book continuity, so there's really no reason to assume what happened in comics will happen here.
Honestly, I think the only way to truly salvage Laurel would be to somehow make her into a villain and then let her get killed.
fallengorn
Bitches love smiley faces
Yeah. When she started going off on Sara, it was like, "They're really trying hard to make you dislike her..."
I think it's pretty obvious the writers have been struggling with Laurel this season.
If you go by comic canon, she's going to be Black Canary. The only argument against it was that blind item, which was denied... but really, are you going to fess up to writing an actor out on twitter?
I think most of the Laurel hate is carried over from season one, where she existed only to be involved in love triangles and to be the preachy know it all friend.
I do think this season they've squandered her due to giving her little involvement in the main plot. She's going through this very personal crucible, and while her actions make sense for someone whose life is falling apart and is suffering from depression, it's just too far removed from everything else going on. Add on the fact that the audience already wasn't on her side and there's a ton of information on the other characters' struggles that we know and she, it's no surprise there's so much hate being thrown at her.
I think Ollie's funny when he wants to be, especially in the Arrowcave. I think he's still in "soldier mode" when he puts on the hood. Having Roy out with him now will help as he'll have someone to banter with.
It gets better as the season goes on. The problem I feel is that it feels really low key, calm, and perhaps a bit boring when it follows the craziness that is Arrow a few seconds later. It should be airing first and instead of after it since the episodes tend to increase in intensity at the end.
Back to Laurel. I think the writers took a gamble with her story arc and I think its been a bust. Katie Cassidy as an actress isn't the problem. What she's given to work with and the decisions they've made I think have turned people against the character to various degrees. So if they have her go through a redemption arc then they need to do an insanely good job to not just cover that but to also get the audience back on board or simply on board with the character. The additional problem is I don't think people were ever on board with Laurel in the first place. Even back in season 1. I don't ever recall people liking her even then. It was Shado and Felicity. People were willing to defend Thea more.
What they might have planned might have to be changed with how people have taken to Sara or hell many other female characters but Laurel. Now I wonder if they will force things and what the negative outcome of that will be.
VeryGooster
Banned
While there have been referenced arcs and many known character appearances over the course of the show, simply thinking "Here are the comics. It's inevitable where the show will go" seems ignorant of the fact that often television writers at times have to re-tool the arc or a show's characters because of audience reception or other (unforeseen) circumstances.
Wow, amazing post. One particular thing that hits me is that some characters are supposed to be disliked. That is okay. That does not mean that the character is "bad" or need not appear later or has to die. My girlfriend absolutely HATED the Master in Doctor Who (the last Master, played by John Simm.) She thought he was absolutely bonkers and it was just off-putting. To which I said: that is fine, that was what he was supposed to do in that role. If you loved the Master in the end of S3, then something was not right with how things were going down. Him being an asshole was part of the character.
And even to such a vile, broken character, there was redemption, as seen in The End of Time
If anything, there will be a lot of tears and anger in S2/S3 if they go through with Laurel's arc - which they should, as it is moving forward in a very clear fashion.
I wonder what you would have said to Asshole Oliver when he was not crashing in an island yet. Was that an "unredeemable" charater for you? Assume it was not his show and that he is just a character in, say, Starling City Adventures. Would you have said "yeah, go through with it, I am sure a crazy ass island and 5 years of suffering would turn him into someone I like". And forget the cognitive dissonance for retroactively liking a past asshole just because we know how well he turned out later on. Would you have wanted the writers to kill off Asshole Ollie then? I suppose you would have. But here we are.
TacticalFox88
Banned
"I've seen the way you look at him."
Was Moira implying that she knew Felicity had feelings for Ollie? Or was that just an assumption?
Was Moira implying that she knew Felicity had feelings for Ollie? Or was that just an assumption?
Wiktor
Member
There are characters audience hates and there are those audience loves to hate. Only the second one are good, the first type are failure.
You are not supposed to love the alcoholist currently under the influence. I have yet to find a character that I love that had an alcoholic phase in her/his life when it was portrayed as "do not you love how hilarious that is".... none. Not even Kirsten in the OC. She is awesome, but not when that phase was going on. Nope.
The audience is a bit more than immature folks sticking their fingers to "DIE, please" to characters that have bad traits as of now. There was not much wrong in case-solving Laurel and her assumptions that yeah, Ollie was a douchebag AND responsible for Sarah's death. Or that Sarah was sleeping with her boyfriend and was actively undermining their relationship. So.....
Veronica Mars Logan was a character that I thought of as unredeemable in the first half of S1. See how that turned out.
If it counts, I do sorta enjoy watching her suffer.
SlowRevolution
Member
The "you hate her just like you hated Skylar why do you hate REAL WOMEN" argument is almost as annoying as "x actor is going to be great in this role just like Heath Ledger was." Yeah sometimes that argument is true, and it's fans being dumb and stubborn, but it's turned into some dismissive blanket statement that ignores valid complaints.
The writing/acting of Laurel is just kind of shitty, she's pretty one-note and still feels a little like a character from some other CW show wandered into this one. It's gotten better since season one because they've mostly ditched the dumb love triangle stuff she was stuck with, but she's not suddenly a good character just because people don't like her.
I feel like if the second season of Heroes had started airing after Breaking Bad people would suddenly be saying Maya was a good character, just because everyone hated her.
The writing/acting of Laurel is just kind of shitty, she's pretty one-note and still feels a little like a character from some other CW show wandered into this one. It's gotten better since season one because they've mostly ditched the dumb love triangle stuff she was stuck with, but she's not suddenly a good character just because people don't like her.
I feel like if the second season of Heroes had started airing after Breaking Bad people would suddenly be saying Maya was a good character, just because everyone hated her.
I don't agree at all about the actual character hate being similar to Skyler (because Arrow's writers kind of suck and Laurel is written horribly and Breaking Bad's writers are amazing and Skyler was written very well), but the way people are shitting on Cassidy's looks is very, very similar to the way people did with Anna Gunn.
I don't know, I think last night puts into perspective her downward spiral, yeah, at the time it was kinda "wtf is she doing/thinking???" This episode kinda reminds us how her life has probably been shit for the last 6 years all starting with that incident and just when she thought she found some closure, old wounds are freshly ripped open and she's back to being lost and confused. Sister supposedly dies while cheating with your boyfriend who also dies, Mother goes nuts and leaves, father becomes an alcoholic, boyfriend thought dead comes back and is a constant reminder of all this, current on/off again boyfriend is killed and she's partly responsible, is played/being set up by Blood and Slade, gets fired from her job, gets rejected from her friend's firm, and then her sister comes back and almost gets her entire family killed and once more reminds her about the first incident that started this all.
I mean come on, if there's a sympathetic character on this show... it's pretty much Laurel lol. I agree with that reddit post, female characters are too often labelled off as "bitches" with the slightest hint of rebellion mixed with depression--it even moves beyond the character being attacked with the actress herself being demonized and her looks scrutinized. I mean Ollie can be a hypocritical stubborn depressed asshole at times, but man "it makes sense cuz of wat he went thru on the island and he's still like a badass killing ppl even if he is a sociopath."
Wiktor
Member
Are you kidding me? There's lots of sad alcoholic characters people love. Paul Newman in Verdict being the prime example. People love such terribly flawed character as long as they have some other redeeming qualities. Laurel doesn't. What's more, she's surrounded by cast where pretty much everybody is awesome and likable. Heck, Roy is getting cool these days. I
Logan was always charming in a bad boy way and was always, from the very first episode, a pure joy to watch. Laurel at her best was tolerable in the "God, I hope this scene with her will end quickly, so we can get to a good stuff" way. At this point it's way to late to reverse her character. Doing so would require enforcing mass amnesia on the whole audience. No matter what they do now, Laurel will always have two years of crap dragging her down. And honestly, the actress deserves better.
Rafa=FedKilla
Banned
When somebody says that, its always what that means.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
Yeah I actually like walking dead but thats just how they compare to me.
POI is my favorite tv show of all time though, just an amazing show.
Wiktor
Member
You know why people forgive him for that? Because he's also doing shitload of awesome stuff in each episode. Olie has flaws, which is a good character writing.
All Laurel has is flaws. That's the problem. She lacks the cushion of awesomeness to dampen her downs. And this "bu..bu...in real life she would be like that" is wrong argument here, because this is a show about superheroes not a intimate character study drama, so nobody does care about one weak character having tough time when she doesn't contribute to awesomeness.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
I honestly have little problem with the Laurel character now that she has a target (Sara) for her vitriol. The obvious story choice would have her go even further off the rails before pulling it together after Sara dies.
It seemed like there was little reason for the Laurel character up until she had the realisation that Sara was alive.
It seemed like there was little reason for the Laurel character up until she had the realisation that Sara was alive.
1) If you told this thread half a year ago that Roy will be redeemed and liked, you would be laughed out of the thread. So that is that. And it supports my theory that Laurel will be redeemed, or that the possibility of that is out there : )
2) Yeah. The fact that Laurel is surrounded by half-naked people doing pushups and pullups is kinda my point. In the beginning of Arrow, Roy, Thea and Laurel was all deemed unfit for this show. Since then, Thea did not have a downward spiral from her drug abuse, but get her shit together and eventually settled into something that does not disrupt the show's main flow. Roy has become almost integral to it via Mirakuru (another initially disliked concept, mind you.) Laurel started off as judgmental, angry, and while being investigator and helping, she both started her own downward spiral, got in the way of a tumblr-driven OllieXFelicity (nonsense!) pairing, pursued the hood (while not knowing who is under it), lead the charges against Ollie's mother (again, while feeling bad about it), so she was pinned to the wall as the character hard to like.
There is a way out. And trust me, if they do it well, the majority of people who currently hate her will like her eventually. She will act differently, she will regret her ways, and she will help out Ollie more than enough times to warrant a change of heart. Just like how Roy is getting there.
If that is your main issue with Laurel, than that is nothing an injection of MIRAKURU wont solve...
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
I'm just glad Sara got out of this episode alive.
Almost felt like it was originally written to have her die.
Almost felt like it was originally written to have her die.
Jest Chillin
Member
I have to agree with AdrianWerner here.
Laurel's character has been written with too much negativity dragging her down. She doesn't become sympathetic because the people she's lashing out at have their own baggage that's weighing them down as well and yet are trying to work through that, while Laurel is wallowing.
Sara, for example, definitely deserved to be on the recieving end of Laurel's venom.. but only from Laurel's perspective. The Audience, however has seen how Sara put herself at risk to come back to save her family not once, but twice. How Sara was willing to kill herself to save her family. So while Sara's choices put her family in danger, she's redeemed by being willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for them. Laurel, on the other hand, has been nothing but shitty to pretty much everyone around her. And while that should be understandable given what she's been through, it doesn't play out as sympathetic because she's surrounded by people who've been through just as much shit but are still trying to be better.
Laurel is a tragic character in a circle of tragic characters but while everyone else is soldiering on and trying to do their best.. she's running around with the "woe is me" attitude. She doesn't know any better but that doesn't help her appearance to the majority of the audience at large. Everyone assumed she had to go through a crucible but at there's been very little relief or signs of hope for her to be redeemed at this point.
Laurel's character has been written with too much negativity dragging her down. She doesn't become sympathetic because the people she's lashing out at have their own baggage that's weighing them down as well and yet are trying to work through that, while Laurel is wallowing.
Sara, for example, definitely deserved to be on the recieving end of Laurel's venom.. but only from Laurel's perspective. The Audience, however has seen how Sara put herself at risk to come back to save her family not once, but twice. How Sara was willing to kill herself to save her family. So while Sara's choices put her family in danger, she's redeemed by being willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for them. Laurel, on the other hand, has been nothing but shitty to pretty much everyone around her. And while that should be understandable given what she's been through, it doesn't play out as sympathetic because she's surrounded by people who've been through just as much shit but are still trying to be better.
Laurel is a tragic character in a circle of tragic characters but while everyone else is soldiering on and trying to do their best.. she's running around with the "woe is me" attitude. She doesn't know any better but that doesn't help her appearance to the majority of the audience at large. Everyone assumed she had to go through a crucible but at there's been very little relief or signs of hope for her to be redeemed at this point.
LumpOfCole
Member
They really need to give Diggle something to do soon besides standing in the Arrow cave crossing his arms.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
io9 hit the nail on the head with Ollie's rage at his mother last night:
http://io9.com/the-biggest-tear-jerker-scenes-from-last-nights-arrow-1517241783
http://io9.com/the-biggest-tear-jerker-scenes-from-last-nights-arrow-1517241783
BlackNMild2k1
Member
The lines around her mouth.... she has lost too much weight in her face.
She obvious obviously did something (surgical?) with her chin, but I'm starting to wonder if there is something else going on. It has drastically changed her appearance and it is a little distracting in most scenes she is in.
Perhaps she is extreme dieting? I just hope it's not more serious than that.
But I have a question about the next episode and the one 2 episodes after that.
In the next episode
I was going to ask who that guy was supposed to be (from heroes and prison break) but I spoiled his character by trying to look up his name - it's Robert Knepper BTW, and he plays
The Clock King
So instead, 2 episodes after that
"Birds of Prey", is Felicity supposed to become Oracle at some point or are we expecting the introduction of another new character along with the return of The Huntress?
Edit
They will soon enough
episode after next is a Diggle episode, I think
n00bsauce87
Member
As long as they don't know that she booby-trapped the boat from the beginning, it's all good. Remember, Ollie wasn't supposed to be on that boat and she tried her damnedest to get him off. And Sara was last second. But for the "good" of Sterling, she was willing to kill her husband and son. She's heartless.
But he does it so well!
My problem with the whole "Skylar White Syndrome" thing is that it equates criticism of the character and the writing to misogyny or a double standard with female characters when that probably only applies to a portion of those who are critical.
Skylar was hypocritical, shrill and not one of the characters the show had been designed to get us to relate to. Her scenes were fundamentally less interesting than pretty much every other character, her interactions were less entertaining or meaningful all while being outright annoying. Few characters could pull off that "shut up" temper tantrum and not make us want to slap them, male or female.
I do think there's some truth to the idea that female characters can't be as bitchy or wrong as male characters and escape criticism as well, but there are plenty of male characters that have been kicked around for the same type of thing. Dawson Leery, Jack Shepherd, Ross Gellar, Ted Mosby - just off the top of my head.
Skylar was hypocritical, shrill and not one of the characters the show had been designed to get us to relate to. Her scenes were fundamentally less interesting than pretty much every other character, her interactions were less entertaining or meaningful all while being outright annoying. Few characters could pull off that "shut up" temper tantrum and not make us want to slap them, male or female.
I do think there's some truth to the idea that female characters can't be as bitchy or wrong as male characters and escape criticism as well, but there are plenty of male characters that have been kicked around for the same type of thing. Dawson Leery, Jack Shepherd, Ross Gellar, Ted Mosby - just off the top of my head.
Assuming Sara will be killed and Laurel will replace her, is like S1 saying Oliver will kill Malcom and Tommy will follow him. We can assume so based on the comics, but we shouldn't underestimate the writers.
These are the moments where I don't care for Oliver very much. They hit it right on the head with that scene. However Oliver being a hypocrite is par for the character and it will come back and bite him in the ass eventually I believe. The whole scene I think was forced drama. Having him find out from Meryln would have been far better I think.
This right here was my thought as I watched this episode.
Wiktor
Member
I think it's more than just Thea, but bassicaly Moira has been exposed as lying through her teeth the whole time. And Olie bassicaly took a lot from her on good faith alone. At this point he has to wonder, just what else did she lied about? Heck, maybe she just willingly took part in his father;s murder solely because her ex-squeeze nicely asked for that. He's still misguided, but you can bet this will provide for good drama in the future as I'm sure both Merylyn and Slade will try to exploit this wedge.
HappenstanceUK
Member
I think the scene might have worked a bit better for me if Ollie had also been annoyed about Moira trying to manipulate Felicity into not telling him, given how upset she was when she told him.
The thing about Laurel...
No one wants her to be redeemed or built back up.
The plan to have her become BC and join Oliver doesn't mean anything anymore, Sara destroyed that. She completely took over Laurels role, and did it better then katie could ever hope to. Laurel BC is seen by everyone as a huge downgrade, the fans are completely against it.
Laurel has no purpose in the story anymore, building her up again doesn't do anything, it just makes her boring ass Laurel again.
When I said they should make her a super villain I was being sincere, it would give her purpose and real connects to the plots and storylines that actually matter.
She doesn't have to be a one note crazy villain, or one that only lasts for a season, make her more of an anti hero that doesn't play well with the rest of the cast, but still interacts with them on a regular basis, sometimes as a friend and sometimes as a foil
No one wants her to be redeemed or built back up.
The plan to have her become BC and join Oliver doesn't mean anything anymore, Sara destroyed that. She completely took over Laurels role, and did it better then katie could ever hope to. Laurel BC is seen by everyone as a huge downgrade, the fans are completely against it.
Laurel has no purpose in the story anymore, building her up again doesn't do anything, it just makes her boring ass Laurel again.
When I said they should make her a super villain I was being sincere, it would give her purpose and real connects to the plots and storylines that actually matter.
She doesn't have to be a one note crazy villain, or one that only lasts for a season, make her more of an anti hero that doesn't play well with the rest of the cast, but still interacts with them on a regular basis, sometimes as a friend and sometimes as a foil
Wiktor
Member
Trust me, no matter what they think up, it will never be anywhere as good for the show as killing her off or at the very least movimg her into villain group. She's redudant on the good side. Everything she could ever contribute other characters are already doing ten times better than she ever could.
njecting her with Mirakuru won't erase two seasons of suckage. What's more, it will feel extremely tired to see yet another character injected with that.
But most of all, people really like Sara, she's a lot nicer character, with better action body and most of all with a lot more story potential than Laurel, who at most can just be yet-another-sidekick. If she dies, so that Laurel can have her BC transformation people will forever blame Laurel for that and it will sour that character permanently.
Attempt to sacrifice likeable character in attempt to salvage loathed one is bound to backfire..badly.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
The problem with Laurel is that she just isn't very likable. I dunno whether to chalk it up to the writers or to Katie, but you have to root for a person and feel sympathy when they're in the throes of a downward spiral. You want them to rise out of the pit that they've fallen into.
See, Katie needs this moment:
But what they've got here just makes her look like... well, a brat. Frankly, I don't care if she comes back out the other side swinging, if she can put herself back together. That is a problem. When I watched TDKR, I wanted Bruce to succeed, because they'd built him up so well across the three movies, and they showed his downfall quite well, and then him rebuilding himself. They haven't done that well with Laurel at all. They came close with the episode where she was trying to take down Blood, but even then... eh.
It's hard to put an exact grasp on the problem. See, a lot of awful shit has happened to her. That's reason enough to support her, but there's something intangible there that makes everything slightly distasteful.
See, Katie needs this moment:
But what they've got here just makes her look like... well, a brat. Frankly, I don't care if she comes back out the other side swinging, if she can put herself back together. That is a problem. When I watched TDKR, I wanted Bruce to succeed, because they'd built him up so well across the three movies, and they showed his downfall quite well, and then him rebuilding himself. They haven't done that well with Laurel at all. They came close with the episode where she was trying to take down Blood, but even then... eh.
It's hard to put an exact grasp on the problem. See, a lot of awful shit has happened to her. That's reason enough to support her, but there's something intangible there that makes everything slightly distasteful.
I stopped reading at the Skyler White Syndrome part, well partially I finished the post but disagree with whole heartily.
Laurel wasn't an issue in the first season. She had an interesting dynamic with Oliver when he got back from the island. What hurt her character was the love triangle they put her among Tommy and Oliver. It was interesting in the beginning but she went ahead and slept with Oliver.
Season Two she became a mess with her self hating ways. She hated the Arrow because she thought he killed Tommy, what really killed Tommy was Laurel's instance that the files be saved.
We're not threatened by a woman who defies the male lead, we're insulted by the writing and acting that is being done. She seems childish whenever she picks up the bottle and pills.
Arrow should go against all TV logic and have Ollie and Sara be a happy couple.
Even have them get married next season, and then stay together until the end of the show.
I want Green Arrow and Black Canary fighting crime together.
Leave the relationship drama for Felicity, Diggile, and maybe Roy/Thea.
Even have them get married next season, and then stay together until the end of the show.
I want Green Arrow and Black Canary fighting crime together.
Leave the relationship drama for Felicity, Diggile, and maybe Roy/Thea.
greendomo's ghost
Member
Plus they've already given us a badass Black Canary, who has the training and the looks to pull it off, who has a richer backstory involving the Island and the League. On every count, Sara is the more interesting character than Laurel, and killing Sara to replace her with Laurel would just be a waste of a character, and piss off the majority of the fanbase.
FalconSabre
Member
A full minute long preview of at least the next episode courtesy of the Arrow Facebook page. This three week wait is going to suck.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=358228554315183
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=358228554315183
I honestly think the plan is for Sarah to become Black Canary full time from now on. Originally maybe Laurel was meant to go down that route but I think the writers are seeing the reaction of the fans now. I mean what else would be the point of that flashback scene where Sarah tells Ollie Laurel stole him from her when she confessed to having a crush on him? Also there's that flashback scene this episode where Laurel acted like a self-entitled bitch in her conversation with Sarah about Oliver. We also see that Sarah was originally having doubts about going over to Ollie, which redeems her character even more.
- Status