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ARROW Season 2 |OT| Back in a Flash

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J

Jest Chillin

Member
Clevinger said:
Could have used Thea, Moira, and Tommy in the first half of the season for that. And it's not like Oliver wasn't a seething ball of insane serial killer rage throughout the whole first season because of Laurel anyway. Tommy's death was really the big thing that developed him in that way.
Click to expand...

Oliver was teetering on the edge in the first season. He didn't have a problem with killing, sure, but he also wasn't batshit insane either. It was primarily the combination of Diggs and Laurel that kept him from going over the edge. Moira and Thea would not have worked simply because Moira being responsible in part for the whole thing would've regressed his character and Thea would've had to be in the know more about what was going on.. which just doesn't make sense for a 17 year old kid. Tommy's death was the catalyst for Oliver going non-lethal but he wasn't instrumental at all in his overall character development. Mostly because by having Tommy go back and forth between "I got your back!" and "I hate you you killer!" it never really pushed Oliver in any direction for very long.
 
C

Clevinger

Member
Jest Chillin said:
Oliver was teetering on the edge in the first season. He didn't have a problem with killing, sure, but he also wasn't batshit insane either. It was primarily the combination of Diggs and Laurel that kept him from going over the edge. Moira and Thea would not have worked simply because Moira being responsible in part for the whole thing would've regressed his character and Thea would've had to be in the know more about what was going on.. which just doesn't make sense for a 17 year old kid. Tommy's death was the catalyst for Oliver going non-lethal but he wasn't instrumental at all in his overall character development. Mostly because by having Tommy go back and forth between "I got your back!" and "I hate you you killer!" it never really pushed Oliver in any direction for very long.
Click to expand...

Agree to disagree. Oliver already was over the edge. He was crazy pants crazy. The only way he could have been crazier is if killed random people. It wasn't until Tommy called him a crazy serial killer and later his death that Oliver came back at all. (I'd argue Oliver's still pretty crazy because he went back to the island in the premiere and had to be dragged back to civilization).

I don't remember Laurel doing much of anything in that regard.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
Clevinger said:
Agree to disagree. Oliver already was over the edge. He was crazy pants crazy. The only way he could have been crazier is if killed random people. It wasn't until Tommy called him a crazy serial killer and later his death that Oliver came back at all. (I'd argue Oliver's still a bit crazy because he went back to the island in the premiere and had to be dragged back to civilization).

I don't remember Laurel doing much of anything in that regard.
Click to expand...

It was the on again off again nature of Laurel that made Oliver feel anything other than his desire for vengeance. It was a connection to a more humane part of life. And if Oliver really was crazy then he wouldn't have clashed at all with Huntress.
 
C

Clevinger

Member
Jest Chillin said:
And if Oliver really was crazy then he wouldn't have clashed at all with Huntress.
Click to expand...

He was a crazy hypocrite. The writers had to turn Huntress into an irredeemable cartoon after they realized Oliver criticizing her made no sense.

Jest Chillin said:
It was the on again off again nature of Laurel that made Oliver feel anything other than his desire for vengeance.
Click to expand...

I guess? I never got that impression. And I don't see why Thea, Tommy, Walter and guests like McKenna couldn't have filled that role. Just like Laurel, none of them were in the know (for most of the season in Tommy's case) and they served as little more than emotional support. If emotional support wasn't enough, KcKenna also served the same bangin' support.
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
Clevinger said:
He was a crazy hypocrite. The writers had to turn Huntress into an irredeemable cartoon after they realized Oliver criticizing her made no sense.

I guess? And I don't see why Thea, Tommy, Walter and guests like McKenna couldn't have filled that role. Just like Laurel, none of them were in the know (for most of the season in Tommy's case) and they served as little more than emotional support. If emotional support wasn't enough, KcKenna also served the same bangin' support.
Click to expand...

I didn't see him as a hypocrite at all. Huntress tactics were going to start a war that would've cost countless lives. Oliver always tried to keep extraneous victims out of the mix. Laurel's being a lawyer put her in the know in terms of the crime that was going on. It gave her personal stance more credence. She saw the darkness and evil that was going on but still held moral high ground. Thea would never have seen that side of Starling/The Glades. That's why they have to use Roy to even show an inkling of that part of the city to her character. Walter was gone half the season to give Moira a way to seem redeemable. No Laurel would mean Oliver would side with Huntress.. which would mean Diggs and Felicity would've bounced on Oliver as well.

These things are crafted as a jenga-like puzzle. You can't just yank major characters and shove others into their role and expect it to work. Entire plot points would have to be reworked and the show would end up incredibly different.
 
N

NotTheGuyYouKill

Member
Khezu said:
I'm pro Sarah staying and Laurel never becoming BC.

They don't have to kill her off, just keep her as a Damsel in Distress for both Ollie and Sarah.

Just keep giving her weird wacky B plots that have nothing to do with any of the other characters.
Click to expand...

Joni said:
I say go full Batman and kill her. Do a full fake like last season where it seems Sara will die and kill Laurel instead of Sara.
Click to expand...

Oooooh, I'm digging both of these ideas.
 
C

Clevinger

Member
Jest Chillin said:
I didn't see him as a hypocrite at all. Huntress tactics were going to start a war that would've cost countless lives. Oliver always tried to keep extraneous victims out of the mix. Laurel's being a lawyer put her in the know in terms of the crime that was going on. It gave her personal stance more credence. She saw the darkness and evil that was going on but still held moral high ground. Thea would never have seen that side of Starling/The Glades. That's why they have to use Roy to even show an inkling of that part of the city to her character. Walter was gone half the season to give Moira a way to seem redeemable. No Laurel would mean Oliver would side with Huntress.. which would mean Diggs and Felicity would've bounced on Oliver as well.
Click to expand...

But you just said Laurel's on again off again relationship melodrama is what helped develop Oliver (which, again, I don't see at all). Her lawyerness played no part in that. Her lawyerness and knowing the darkness and evil and whatever was 80% peripheral to Oliver, his development, and the main plot. It mostly served to get her into Damsel in Distress situations by sometimes dealing with bad guys. None of that factored into her personal relationship with Oliver, which again wasn't much different than the rest other than the fact that she fucked him once at some point, and even there McKenna served the same purpose.

Jest Chillin said:
These things are crafted as a jenga-like puzzle. You can't just yank major characters and shove others into their role and expect it to work. Entire plot points would have to be reworked and the show would end up incredibly different.
Click to expand...

You don't need to shove Laurel's pieces (emotional support, damsel in distress, and sex) into other characters because other characters were already serving that purpose. She was redundant. Unnecessary. But your jenga analogy works in one way. Laurel in season 1 is basically those jenga pieces you take out and the tower still stands perfectly fine.

And of course the show would be different. That's the point. This is a show where the female lead simply doesn't work and takes up a decent chunk of its screen time. It's a glaring flaw. Changing her character into something worthwhile would make the show very different, and chances are better because you couldn't make that chunk of the show worse.

Jest Chillin said:
I didn't see him as a hypocrite at all. Huntress tactics were going to start a war that would've cost countless lives.
Click to expand...

And the scores of criminals Oliver murdered didn't lead to massive collateral damage just because the show didn't mention it? Come on, now.

edit: Anyway, I have to stop. Laurel already takes some of my enjoyment from the show. I'm not going to let her take my time with debating about her too. lol
 
J

Jorok Goldblade

Member
Oliver's got something on his face:

http://www.greenarrowtv.com/on-location-photo-is-the-arrow-wearing-what-we-think-hes-wearing/15594

arrow3.1021.jpg


Also, a recurring villain is coming back in State v. Queen:
http://www.greenarrowtv.com/arrow-state-v-queen-description-spoiler-returns/15592
 
J

Jest Chillin

Member
Clevinger said:
But you just said Laurel's on again off again relationship melodrama is what helped develop Oliver (which, again, I don't see at all). Her lawyerness played no part in that. Her lawyerness and knowing the darkness and evil and whatever was 80% peripheral to Oliver, his development, and the main plot. It mostly served to get her into Damsel in Distress situations by sometimes dealing with bad guys. None of that factored into her personal relationship with Oliver, which again wasn't much different than the rest other than the fact that she fucked him once at some point, and even there McKenna served the same purpose.
Click to expand...

The personal relationship and being a lawyer are two sides that make the whole of Laurel S1 being Olivers anchor. None of the other characters serve that purpose. The personal relationship is what draws Oliver to Laurel and her being a moral character standing against the darkness is what keeps him over the edge. You need both to be effective. Again, Moira being apart of everything would've resulted in Oliver going full FTW mode once he discovered that fact. Thea has no connection to the dark side of the city and is extremely naive. She could never inspire Oliver to take a stronger moral position. Being a source of sexual release and being a Damsel in Distress are secondary aspects of the character. The sex itself was really just a plot point to cause the wedge needed to give Tommy's death the intended effect.

Clevinger said:
You don't need to shove Laurel's pieces (emotional support, damsel in distress, and sex) into other characters because other characters were already serving that purpose. She was redundant. Unnecessary. But your jenga analogy works in one way. Laurel in season 1 is basically those jenga pieces you take out and the tower still stands perfectly fine.

And of course the show would be different. That's the point. This is a show where the female lead simply doesn't work and takes up a decent chunk of its screen time. It's a glaring flaw. Changing her character into something worthwhile would make the show very different, and chances are better because you couldn't make that chunk of the show worse.
Click to expand...

Sorry but I disagree entirely. Laurel was crucial to S1 even if you don't see it. Laurel is less necessary at this point of S2 but that's largely because the writers went CW all over the script and brought in Sara for the obvious love triangle drama crap. And also to make Laurel and her Dad essentially switch places for some really odd reason. But Laurel being in a really weird place right now doesn't invalidate her necessity in the first season. Did they implement her in a really annoying drama-filled way? Sure. But that's CW for you. Every single scripted show they air is loaded with it.
 
J

Joni

Member
Stephen Amell said:
5 day warning: Episode 5 of Season 2 is my favorite episode of the series so far. It's called
The League of Assassins
for goodness sakes.

I do not bestow the tag of favorite episode lightly.

My first favorite was the pilot, followed by episode 6, episode 14 & episode 16.

Episode 16 has been trumped by this coming week.
The League of Assassins
has the proverbial championship belt my friends.

AND I CANNOT WAIT FOR YOU TO SEE IT!!!
Click to expand...
Damn you Amell! Make waiting everything harder. (For those wondering: 6 was the Ace Gang, 14 was Felicity joining up with Ollie and Slade attacking Fryers to save Yaoi Fei, 16 was Deadshot #2)
 
C

Clevinger

Member
Joni said:
Damn you Amell! Make waiting everything harder. (For those wondering: 6 was the Ace Gang, 14 was Felicity joining up with Ollie and Slade attacking Fryers to save Yaoi Fei, 16 was Deadshot #2)
Click to expand...

Wait. Didn't he just say that (kinda lame) Bronze Tiger episode was the best they've made?
 
R

REV 09

Member
Just started the show last week and I'm already caught up. Love it!!! Can't believe it is as good as it is. DC may be behind in movies, but this show is a lot better than Agents of Shield.
 
S

Shaanyboi

Banned
More_Badass said:
So was that serum at the end Venom or something else?
Click to expand...

When Blood called it "a miracle," I figured it was some superpower formula thing.

Leads me to think maybe at some point Laurel will get kidnapped, get injected, and she'll have a proper Canary Cry after Sarah probably ends up dying.

God I hope Sarah stays the Black Canary and Laurel bites the dust...
 
N

NotTheGuyYouKill

Member
Joni said:
He hasn't been that wrong for season 2.
Click to expand...

True.

Shaanyboi said:
When Blood called it "a miracle," I figured it was some superpower formula thing.

Leads me to think maybe at some point Laurel will get kidnapped, get injected, and she'll have a proper Canary Cry after Sarah probably ends up dying.

God I hope Sarah stays the Black Canary and Laurel bites the dust...
Click to expand...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Minimize superpowers as much as possible.
 
D

DominoKid

Member
Shaanyboi said:
When Blood called it "a miracle," I figured it was some superpower formula thing.

Leads me to think maybe at some point Laurel will get kidnapped, get injected, and she'll have a proper Canary Cry after Sarah probably ends up dying.

God I hope Sarah stays the Black Canary and Laurel bites the dust...
Click to expand...

iDPnEx1h7F0Ka.gif
 
R

Rokam

Member
So I was looking up an image of Green Arrow, and I find a post someone made to some news site that is eerily similar to mine about making a GA game based on Supermax in the AA engine. Which one of you dirty people is stealing my ideas... I deserve royalties!
 
F

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
WAT
16hoRow.jpg


Are you intrigued by the idea of a graphic novel adaptation which features actresses beating the bejesus out of each other and stars Katie Cassidy (Arrow), Eliza Dushku, Gina Gershon, Michael Imperioli, Billy Campbell, Michelle Trachtenberg, and Sasha Grey? Then prepared to be intrigued further by the poster for The Scribbler — the name of said film — which we are exclusively revealing ahead of its debut at the American Film Market next week.

The Scribbler, which is produced by NAA, NightSky Productions, and Caliber Media, stars Cassidy as a young woman confronting her destructive mental illness using “The Siamese Burn”, an experimental machine designed to eliminate multiple personalities. The film is directed by John Suits and written by Daniel Schaffer, who also penned the original 2006 graphic novel.

“The Scribbler respects its graphic novel roots and became this insane, intense action movie with tons of cool new sci-fi elements,” NAA founder Gabe Cowan said in a statement. “It’s a mixture of ridiculously talented actresses kicking the crap out of each other while also commenting on individuality vs. conformity.”
Click to expand...

I'm intrigued. Maybe a bit engorged, too.
 
J

Joni

Member
fallengorn said:
Only a matter of time until Diggle mentions how he was hunting a warlord in Afghanistan who tossed away rubies the size of a tangerine.
Click to expand...
Or it could be a war story of his dad and his time in the Vietnam war where he used to hang out with this British dude.
 
N

NotTheGuyYouKill

Member
Funky Papa said:
WAT


I'm intrigued. Maybe a bit engorged, too.
Click to expand...

Hm. Could be interesting. Maybe they'll give Katie some legit material to work with.

Joni said:
Or it could be a war story of his dad and his time in the Vietnam war where he used to hang out with this British dude.
Click to expand...

Ooooh, I like that.

"And then this raging British badass becomes a fucking butler on the East Coast. You believe that shit, Oliver?"

"Yes, Mr. Diggle. I do."
 
Z

zorlaczerohero

Banned
Clevinger said:
(I'd argue Oliver's still pretty crazy because he went back to the island in the premiere and had to be dragged back to civilization).
Click to expand...

Possible big spoiler!
Don't read!
No really Don't!
Ok don't blame me..
In the comic series Olly went back to the Island to get his "killer Instinct" back. Olly became mayor of Star City and had a hit put out on him with Deathstroke hired to do the job, then went on to out-think and beat Deathstroke (though not really, long story) due to his retraining on the Island with Natas, Deathstrokes former mentor.

My guess is they will pull bits of this comic story over.
 
N

NotTheGuyYouKill

Member
zorlaczerohero said:
Possible big spoiler!
Don't read!
No really Don't!
Ok don't blame me..
In the comic series Olly went back to the Island to get his "killer Instinct" back. Olly became mayor of Star City and had a hit put out on him with Deathstroke hired to do the job, then went on to out-think and beat Deathstroke (though not really, long story) due to his retraining on the Island with Natas, Deathstrokes former mentor.

My guess is they will pull bits of this comic story over.
Click to expand...

While that sounds interesting, I don't see the whole
Ollie becoming Mayor
thing happening...

But could be interesting to see that. It's something I always imagined Bruce Wayne should have done in addition to jumping off of rooftops.
 
S

Shaanyboi

Banned
OKAY. Gf presented me with a new theory just now... Thought I'd post it here as an extension of my previous theory here...

Shaanyboi said:
When Blood called it "a miracle," I figured it was some superpower formula thing.

Leads me to think maybe at some point Laurel will get kidnapped, get injected, and she'll have a proper Canary Cry after Sarah probably ends up dying.

God I hope Sarah stays the Black Canary and Laurel bites the dust...
Click to expand...

So... according to her, "I mean she COULD also find her sister mudered and inject herself with it. as a revenge thing then take out Blood."

I had a "Ooooooo" moment when she said that and figured I'd post it.
 
pulga

pulga

Banned
If Sara bites the dust, there will be hell to pay. HELL.

Sara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>AIDS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laurel
 
Z

zorlaczerohero

Banned
NotTheGuyYouKill said:
Oooooh, I'm digging both of these ideas.
Click to expand...

Indeed Laurel is so unlikeable. Plus in the comics BC is actually better at hand to hand than GA. Don't see how they could turn Laurel into a fully trained martial artist of Olly's standard.

Saying that I think they'll manage it.
Sarah gets killed by blood, laurel gets the injection, becomes superpowered and starts wearing her dead sisters clothes.

Let's pray Sarah's middle name is Dinah.....

I'd like them to find a way to bring Connor in, GA's son. Such a great character, the GA books with him and Eddie Fyers are some of the best. Lived as a Monk, a martial artist at Batman levels, no teen anger issues, a pacifist. But unless GA was a very young starter it's not gonna happen. Ooh except,
the Flash and time travel.....
Yeah alright, not gonna happen.
 
Z

zorlaczerohero

Banned
pulga said:
If Sara bites the dust, there will be hell to pay. HELL.
Click to expand...

Oddly enough the Second Speedy, Mia Dearden was HIV+, one of the few in mainstream comics. She came to be under Ollies care after a history of abuse and child prostitution. Green Arrow has a long history of dealing with the darker issues, drug addiction, alcoholism etc.
 
pulga

pulga

Banned
zorlaczerohero said:
Oddly enough the Second Speedy, Mia Dearden was HIV+, one of the few in mainstream comics. She came to be under Ollies care after a history of abuse and child prostitution. Green Arrow has a long history of dealing with the darker issues, drug addiction, alcoholism etc.
Click to expand...

So first one out of Thea and Roy to get AIDs wins?
 
S

Soyongdori

Member
Seriously, they are pulling out all sorts of DC villains, and they can't even bother pulling out a descent Onomatopoeia and Firefly?

Pathetic...
 
T

Tabby

Member
Subitai said:
So is there a petition online somewhere to save Sara and instead of Laurel? Going by this thread there has to be.
Click to expand...

They said they like to do the opposite of what people think they'd do.
If everyone starts saying Sara will die then we'll get what we want.
 
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