AcademicSaucer
Member
When people think of that stereotype they don't usually picture an ex-muslim living in the Middle East or South East Asia tho.
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Atheists in Malaysia should be hunted down, minister says
- Thread starter AcademicSaucer
- Start date
When people think of that stereotype they don't usually picture an ex-muslim living in the Middle East or South East Asia tho.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Truest thing you've ever written. You have indeed demonstrated that quite superbly across your posting history.
Yeah, I think we all see that you are not interested in anything except peddling your scorn at people who dare to band together over their common persecution. I mean:
Incredible. Not just calling them idiots, but victim-blaming too. It's disgusting.
Westbahnhof
Banned
If your life is teeming with people following a faith your cannot follow any longer, it is good to be together with people who have similar views, who have similar experiences, who you can openly talk to about things that bother you.
It's basically free therapy.
But you don't care.
You have settled on "everything is bad, everyone needs to accept it, things never change".
What a terrible attitude to have. And so damn wrong, if we look at history. Society can be changed.
And get your victim blaming nonsense out of here. (seriously, "IDIOTS"?)
Muppet of a Man
Member
You are confusing atheism with ignosticism. Ignostics think debating gods and religions is of no use, as those things have no material impact on our reality and people can't even agree on the definition of the words.
You can be both an atheist and an ignostic. I am. But not everyone who is an atheist is.
I can understand the political stand atheists want to take, as convincing others to abandon supernatural religions and instead rely on science and reason to inform their worldview will have major material impacts that are positive in the realm of politics, which actually affects people's lives.
LordKasual
Banned
why thank you, mysterious and ever so respectful fan of mine
I mean I might be conflating the two, i've actually never heard the word "ignostic" before so I don't have a word to make the distinction.
But yeah I get that the stance against religion is a more important one when you're in a place where people want to murder you for taking that stance.
And, well, I used to think that the world would be a better place if all supernatural religions were replaced with science. I no longer believe that to be entirely true. I kind of feel like religion is something that's just inherent in humans.
You just sound a bit jaded about Malaysia in general
NeoZeedeater
Member
I have never come across one in real life so to me they might as well be leprechauns. I have come across assholes trying to convert me to Christianity or Islam when I just want to sit down in a public place in peace.
You're disgusting
CrimzonSamurai
Member
Man the past few days have been really eye opening to how much anti-atheist sentiment there is on GAF.
AcademicSaucer
Member
Then why so many muslims believe that their religion mandates that, there has to be an explanation
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
And people wonder why we don't want a theocracy in America
Yep, I truly believe the world will be a much better place once all religions are eradicated, but humanity will probably be long gone before that is even close to happening. Religion is a big business and they will not simply let it go.
Aztechnology
Member
Honestly, yes. It's Ideologies around organized religion and their perceived end goals that are the problem. There's nothing inherently wrong with religion or spirituality.
astroturfing
Member
how do Saudis fund their missionary work to spread extremist Islam? do they use oil money? oil money they get from the West? are we funding extremist Islam?
There is. But this thread really takes it to another level. What's more disturbing is that some of those "well just act like you're not atheist, and get over it" are atheists themselves.
Especially people in the west have this weird perception of atheists as if it's some kind of "white privilege" thing. They laugh at the notion that atheists are still discriminated against or even hunted in many parts of the world.
Chuckie
Member
Yeah I wonder how well a statement like that would work about a country where Christians are persecuted: "Well just act like you're not a Christian!"
Or where Muslims were persecuted: "Well just act like you're not a Muslim!"
Where is this anti-atheist sentiment coming from?
It's people clumsily trying not to criticize Islam or Muslims.
Chuckie
Member
If that is true, then the 'regressive left' is actually a real thing.
I edited my previous post but i'll answer you too. I seriously think that especially people in the west think that atheists are primarily white and come from a position of privilege. Discrimination and being atheist doesn't register to people as something that would happen and in the west it rarely does.
There is a real struggle for Atheists, especially in Muslim countries. i can speak to that being an ex-muslim myself.
boiled goose
good with gravy
I don't think it's that.
It's just that a lot of people, even liberal people, are religious.
Deep down they realize that they have little grounding to criticize other religions and even horrible (though theologically justified) stances like killing apostates.
Criticize one religion and one holy text and the same exact criticisms apply to your own irrational and unjustified views.
It's easier to just say lol atheists.
Chuckie
Member
This would be a good point, but some of those people who are saying the atheists should pretend they are not, are atheists themselves.
cubicle47b
Member
I remember seeing this video shortly after it aired. It's crazy. I don't have any stories where I was treated similarly for being an atheist, not that it ever comes up, but I started working at a Food Lion in Tennessee where I got treated somewhat similarly when they found out I was from the north. This was the summer of '99, I think. Very strange.
HazySaiyan
Banned
I don't think believing in things that are irrational, unprovable or provably wrong and then basing your whole life around those beliefs is a good thing personally.
Honestly, yes. It's Ideologies around organized religion and their perceived end goals that are the problem. There's nothing inherently wrong with religion or spirituality.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
Last time I read a story about Malaysia, it was about some villagers getting swallowed whole by a giant snake.
You'd think they'd have more important shit to worry about.
You'd think they'd have more important shit to worry about.
Oppo
Member
depends on the religion. some are better than others.
i.e. I don't really have an issue with, say, Quakers, or Bahai, or Sikhism.
I have problems with anti-scientific views, beliefs that would violate the UN Declaration of Human Rights, and violent/exclusionary religious behaviour.
I am a nonbeliever myself but I wouldn't say all religions are bad. Just some really popular ones. But they are definitely bad, I stand by that. I agree with Harris' "motherload of bad ideas" re: Islam.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
It is a real thing, just often misused. Like when people coddle religions who promote, or enforce, anti-progressive/anti-leftist ideologies.
HazySaiyan
Banned
It's the concept of religion itself, to me it doesn't really matter how benign a particular religion might be. I'm not going to deny that people's faith hasn't resulted in positive things, it of course has, I just think that religion as an idea, belief system and guide on the whole is irrational and stifling
Audioboxer
Member
More so some people are better than others. One of my favourite analogies recently is saying most religious people take part in cafeteria-Christianity/Catholicism/Islam. They pick and choose the parts which they feel help them in their day to day lives, and in most cases that involves side-swerving all the misogyny, hate, violence, killing, rape, pillaging, war and some of the daftest claims around science/physics/logic. It focuses more on spiritual belief, prayer, tolerance, wanting an afterlife, love thy neighbour and so on. All of this usually producing people that are very easy to live around and get on with, even if they still have some dogmatic stances.
Literalist believers, or believers who aim to use the horrible shit in the books 1:1, often for political gain, are the ones that seem to head off to violence, oppression, silencing, abuse and worse in the name of their chosen God. When these kinds of people get into government a country is usually absolutely fucked. A forecast of regression, destruction of tolerance and erosion of human rights/liberal values within years. We have literal examples of this with some countries that are not what they were 5 years ago, let alone some from the 70's/80's. It's not just Islamic countries either, some Catholic majority countries are pretty bad for human rights too. It's probably just that Islam has a bit of a monopoly on "Islamic law/Sharia law" ran countries. Whereas the home of Christianity/Catholicism, being most Western countries, have already largely gone through their separation of Church and state battles. There aren't many religiously law/enforced countries around over this side of the pond.
You still get degrees of literalists in protected secular societies (protected meaning separation of church and state/freedom of speech), it's just a lot of them, whether it's Christianity or Catholicism, get "marginalised" to thinking, rather than acting/doing. They can stand about holding up "God hates fags" signs or protesting abortion or saying the world is 6000 years old, but that's the extent of it. Speech, and some regulated protest. Any sort of action, if oppressive/violent/threatening, will routinely get swept up by law and you and your group(s) dealt with. Islam is a growing religion in most Western societies and without a big dissection on it, the tldr, in my opinion, is there is friction and at times violence/conflict coming because some entering Western countries are not used to literalist interpretations (when radical/violent/intolerant) not being accepted/tolerated here. Especially when it comes to physical actions. We begrudgingly put up with those God hates fag signs (but we challenge/criticism them back), but we're not going to let you rape, abuse, hit, and oppress women. If people are coming from societies which rule by religious law, often literalist views from a book, they can't just come to places where it's not tolerated and expect to be able to continue as-is.
The term regressive-left which has reared its head in here is often used to challenge people who act as apologists on behalf of literalists/literalist Governments. They are the evidence that people can lift from the books and take an interpretation as is, and should be spoken about honestly, not apologised for. Regressive views aim to say "nonsense! x, y, or z isn't in the books, these people just think wrongly and aren't the real Christians/Catholics/Islamic followers". "God(s) would never tolerate raping, killing, oppression and all that horrible stuff!". It annoys people as there is no true definition of "real follower". There are simply beliefs, interpretations and actions, and unfortunately, throughout history and still in the current day, literalists, or those seeking to use religious theocracy for political/power gain, can lift plenty of ammunition in any of the Abrahamic books to empower them abusing/killing/hurting/oppressing. Like it or not, in all of the big religions, the book(s) are often full of hypocrisy, one minute saying don't do anything bad/hurtful, the next talking about insane punishment and consequences. It is what it is, you don't need to be an edgy atheist to drop passages from the books online that say messed up things. It's actually really easy to do and we need fewer apologists jumping out from the bushes and more honest discussion to shift more people to "cafeteria" versions of their religions/faiths, not to get them to become nonbelievers, but to accept the books are written of times thousands of years ago (another issue here at times almost unique to Islam is that the texts are supposed to be literal words of God, so it can be challenging getting people to view them as of the times).
Speak openly and honestly about all of this and you have a chance of reforming, liberalising and encouraging more tolerant societies, which can still have religious followers and freedom of religion. Stick your head in the sand, hold your hands over your ears and always be an apologist or regressive for fear of offending someone and you routinely throw women, especially, under a bus. The "regressive left" as it gets called has become such an easy sniping ground for the far-right, and as anyone with a shred of intelligence will tell you if you fail to speak openly, honestly and with educated stances, you give the chance for radical movements to fill that missing void of intellectual dialect with their own nonsense. The answer to being sick of seeing far right mouth pieces talking on TV/news/online is to have reasonable, honest and intelligent mouth pieces get in there first. Not apologists, or those more concerned with trying to get brownie points with their tolerance of intolerance.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Many of us have either grown up in a culture where religion is put on a pedestal or in a culture where religion doesn't have much influence.
Everyone is vulnerable to prejudice, bias, and socialization regardless of background
I disagree. The problem is religion itself. Mild religions and liberal religious people provide cover for extreme ones. They point to same text and also say faith and revelation are paths to truth.
And guess what, the extreme views tend to be the ones with better theoglocial grounding.
Harris is objectively wrong there. Objective analysis shows old testament has far more violence than quoran. But he knows jewish people (his mother's side) so he has first hand experience of how a horrible text doesn't necessarily lead to extreme views.
In the US for example such a notion is easily proven wrong. Muslim Americans are more liberal than evangelicals.
The texts become almost irrelevant to doctrine, culture, etc.
Hoya Destroyer
Member
These "death to apostate" Muslims, make Islam look like the religious mafia; Once you're in, the only way out is in a box.
It makes me wonder, how many "Muslims" actually believe in Allah? lol
It makes me wonder, how many "Muslims" actually believe in Allah? lol
Audioboxer
Member
Things like this do not help
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r018ohLUuL4
Or the condensed format below where the Doctor living in the UK eventually gives in to Dawkins antagonising and says the Sharia Law countries state the death penalty for apostasy. That does not help perception or reality, and at the very least makes him an apologist whether he lives in a country where it's legal or not. Was probably initially nervous about admitting his views on national TV.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1_1iKIIE6g
The history of apostasy and the death penalty in Islam is a long one. As much as many hate Dawkins the point above about a Christian child growing up and one day saying enough of this isn't quite in parallel to lots of the anecdotal and real consequences faced by some Muslims.
edit: Maryam Namazie dropping some truth bombs in that 7 min video as well, even back whenever this was filmed, especially around criticism.
I mean, from Malaysia
http://www.themalaymailonline.com/m...alty-for-leaving-islam-is-death-mufti-reminds
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