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[Regulus Tera]

Wii has ruined us. NPD has turned into why is the Wii and its games doing well, rather than damn I wish so and so was selling well.

Same shit every month. How will we survive for the next 3 years, arguing the same points over and over.

Damn that Wii! It kills gaming and NPD threads too!

 

[Count Dookkake]

:lol

 

[duk]

nicely done

 

[Liabe Brave]

I am not proposing altering the definition of quality. Just give me the universally agreed upon list of requirements that a game needs to have met in order to be considered "quality."

I can't offer universality, though many of the elements you listed have at least some consensus behind them (I'd eliminate "realistic graphics" as too specific and just use "visual style application"). The really problematic term is "fun", which would need to be statistically measured and even then would be contentious.

The debate is useless without a concrete definition.

No. We don't need a concrete, finished theory of how personalities are formed to know that astrology is utterly wrong. We don't need to know every parameter of "quality" to conclude that it's a property of objects and not applied by the perceiver.

[/QUOTE]But it's great for traditional gamers like me. 30 plus years of gaming and it just keeps getting better![/QUOTE]
Some modern video games, including some on Wii, are fantastic. I don't want to give the impression I think otherwise!

 

[JDSN]

I liked this thread better when it was about hot relatives and awesome gifs.

 

[Opiate]

A tangential issue, but I entirely agree. My view of "quality" as inhering in the object is the only definition that allows such analysis, though. Since many folks assume such talk leads to "high art"-type condescension, it might be necessary to point out that I don't think "quality" is a genre or a theme; there can be high-quality casual games just as easily as high-quality hardcore games.

I agree with all of this, again. I think the danger with discussion of art isn't that art is completely subjective; I think the danger is that it allows those with less popular tastes to continue to justify that their games are superior.

In some cases, I think one could genuinely make the case that a certain product is artistically valuable. Staying away from games, just to be safe, I think you'd have a difficult time arguing to most reasonable people that The Brothers Karamazov is devoid of artistic value. However, in some cases, the "art" label is simply used as a protective sheath; in the case of games, I think the discussion has become more heated in recent months because the 360 and PS3 are falling further and further behind the Wii. How can one "prove" that their games are better even if the majority are rejecting them? Insist that they are "art" and thus, no matter how poorly one's preferred games sell, they are still better than the consumerist pap. It's a bit how Rockstar used "our games are art" in the PS2 days to shield themselves from posssible criticisms of their games.

I hope this isn't going too far off topic -- it's a very interesting topic to discuss, in my opinion, but it's also so opaque for most readers that I jump rabidly at the opportunity to do so whenever I see it arise.

 

[Volcynika]

I just tend to ignore anyone's posts that begin with something like "Well if you're a TRUE gamer,..." etc. Because trying to define something like that is just silly.

 

[Count Dookkake]

No. We don't need a concrete, finished theory of how personalities are formed to know that astrology is utterly wrong.

Amazing non-sequitor/strawman.

We don't need to know every parameter of "quality" to conclude that it's a property of objects and not applied by the perceiver.

Quality as it is used in this discussion seems to be mostly subjective. Perhaps you would have greater success breaking it down by genre, but that might make for its own thread.

 

[kiUNiT]

I liked this thread better when it was about hot relatives and awesome gifs.

+1

 

[Liabe Brave]

Amazing non-sequitor/strawman.

My point was simply that we don't have to have omniscience to disprove something. I'm sure you can come up with your own, more acceptable example.

Quality as it is used in this discussion seems to be mostly subjective. Perhaps you would have greater success breaking it down by genre, but that might make for its own thread.

The reason the discussion uses "quality" as a subjective trait is because of the beliefs of the interlocutors. Consensus can be a powerful tool, but it's not infallible (witness Wikipedia). The definition of "quality" can be made to be entirely subjective, since a language is the creation of its users; for reasons I posted above, using "quality" in this way is redundant, illogical, and contrary to thought patterns firmly entrenched in many people.

 

[deepbrown]

*Reads thread title, reads posts...backs away slowly...*

 

[just tray]

I finally understand the plight of the Nintendo fanboy. After two generations of being kicked around in the dirt with the N64 and Gamecube, they were forced to rescue princesses and jump on mutated mushrooms (while indulging in some mild recreational use)in silence. During downtime I mean waiting for the next hit their anger grew.All the years of

"Should have went with CD"
"Nintendo is for kids"
"Square Enix giving Nintendo the middle finger salute"
"Lol, you can play games on a lunch box?"

have taken it's toll.I used to be one of those guys who got laughed at for having a N64 and Gamecube so I know how it is.But I was never a fanboy.

Now if only the Wii had the same kind of third party support that the Snes had. Go back to those days Nintendo and copy that business model.

 

[Aaron Strife]

If you ignore all of the good games on Wii, then the Wii has no good games.

 

[just tray]

If you ignore all of the good games on Wii, then the Wii has no good games.

That's the problem. Where are the Bioshocks,Metal gear Solid 4's,GTA4's. and other standout third party games? Capcom alone isn't good enough

 

[jetjevons]

Number of games per system that scored 85% or above at gamerankings:

Xbox360: 40
PS3: 24
Wii: 10

Problem solved!

And yes, I am totally joking.

 

[Regulus Tera]

That's the problem. Where are the Bioshocks,Metal gear Solid 4's,GTA4's. and other standout third party games? Capcom alone isn't good enough

Major third parties are taking their time, for better or worse, in getting into the Wii boat, just like they did with the DS. Smaller third parties, on the other hand... http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=334173

Spoiler

Seriously, that's the third time that link has been posted in this thread.

 

[HK-47]

But the DS beats the pants off every platform this generation in terms of quality and quantity of "core" games, not just the Wii.

Hell, I'd even go as far as to say it rivals the PS2's. :/

Not yet it doesnt

 

[soldat7]

Now if only the Wii had the same kind of third party support that the Snes had. Go back to those days Nintendo and copy that business model.

The SNES audience and the Wii audience are completely different.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Not yet it doesnt

Arguable. If not yet at least it's on the right track towards it.

 

[Count Dookkake]

The SNES audience and the Wii audience are completely different.

Not completely.

 

[HK-47]

The 360 had one year headstart

and the devs will be jumping on the wii from now on since the war has been settled

Maybe in Japan

 

[soldat7]

Arguable. If not yet at least it's on the right track towards it.

The DS doesn't even rival the SNES library, let alone the PS2 library.

Completely different flavors. Of course, this is entirely subjective

 

[Bojangles]

Number of games per system that scored 85% or above at gamerankings:

Xbox360: 40
PS3: 24
Wii: 10

Problem solved!

And yes, I am totally joking.

You may be joking - but you're onto something.

 

[Aaron Strife]

That's the problem. Where are the Bioshocks,Metal gear Solid 4's,GTA4's. and other standout third party games? Capcom alone isn't good enough

Who cares?

The best games are the ones that don't try to prove anything. Even Super Mario Galaxy, with its moderate amount of hype, surprised everyone by being the best game ever (at least by GameRankings standards).

 

[kinggroin]

You may be joking - but you're onto something.

Kind of. I see those numbers as almost a measurement of popularity within the hardcore gamer's community (Gaf for instance).

*looks at numbers again


Not quite that dramatic a disparity, but still. I'm sure it reflects the general hardcore gamer concensus.

 

[jvm]

Did you guys get ToV sales yet?

 

[Hcoregamer00]

Did you guys get ToV sales yet?

No, and at this rate we never will.

 

[sphinx]

Number of games per system that scored 85% or above at gamerankings:

Xbox360: 40
PS3: 24
Wii: 10

Problem solved!

And yes, I am totally joking.

a point that has to be mentioned is that +/- 94% of the Wii games are exclusives, whereas as the exclusive games of the HD consoles are not more than 20% or 30%.

I heard many times here that " Exclusives is what makes or breaks a console".

so Wii wins, it is the superior console under all prespectives.

 

[jetjevons]

a point that has to be mentioned is that +/- 94% of the Wii games are exclusives, whereas as the exclusive games of the HD consoles are not more than 20% or 30%.

I heard many times here that " Exclusives is what makes or breaks a console".

See I would of said good games make or break a console. Who gives a shit if the game is available on another system? How does that diminish your enjoyment of a game in any way, shape or form? I've never understood that mentality.

 

[swerve]

The SNES audience and the Wii audience are completely different.

source?

Y'see, I think this is one of the biggest misunderstandings of this generation. The DS and Wii have, I'd have thought, the closest audiences to the SNES of any console between then and now.

Publishers started targeting much older gamers in the 90s, and the core SNES user bracket became less and less important as they were replaced by the wealthy 18-35 year old market.

So a system which skews towards 'families' (who, let's face it, usually have kids) is much more likely to be in tune with the SNES' core values than the HD systems are.

That change in focus for publishers, coupled with the fact that Wii came after the lacklustre performance of the GC, rather than the huge success of the NES, has meant that 3rd parties didn't have the faith to invest straight up.

Their loss? Our loss? Everyone's loss?

 

[Firestorm]

a point that has to be mentioned is that +/- 94% of the Wii games are exclusives, whereas as the exclusive games of the HD consoles are not more than 20% or 30%.

I heard many times here that " Exclusives is what makes or breaks a console".

so Wii wins, it is the superior console under all prespectives.

Well, the 360/PS3 games that aren't exclusive still aren't on the Wii.

 

[just tray]

Well, the 360/PS3 games that aren't exclusive still aren't on the Wii.

Some games are better off left on PS3 and 360

 

[RBH]

:lol :lol

Which magazine is this from again?

 

[Loudninja]

:lol :lol

Which magazine is this from again?

Gamepro.

 

[P90]

The SNES audience and the Wii audience are completely different.

How so? Got research data to back up your assumption?

 

[Captain Smoker]

The Wii is inhospitiable for 3rd party publishers.

F*ck you @ EA, if you can´t do anything right on Wii don't complain:

NCAA Football 09:

--> 5.0 @ IGN [53.3% @ gamerankings, badest version]

[uglyest cover EVER]

[W T F?]

And finally:

 

[sphinx]

Well, the 360/PS3 games that aren't exclusive still aren't on the Wii.

and the 20 best Wii games aren't on any of the other console, whereas 15 out of the 20 best games of the 360 can be found on PS3 and vice versa.

Consequence:

Wii sells 500k
360 sells 250k
PS3 sells 250k.

I am serious here.

This whole PS360 siamesis shit is hurting hardware like no other thing.

 

[Sadist]

Now if only the Wii had the same kind of third party support that the Snes had. Go back to those days Nintendo and copy that business model.

So basicly, you want Sony and MS to quit?

 

[Haunted]

Fucking console gamers ignoring the single greatest platform to have ever existed, dwarfing the pitiful lineup of every other games consoles this generation.


:bow :bow PC


edit: the Wii is awesome, too.

 

[duk]

yes 3rd party s/w sells on wii but what kind of s/w?

 

[Haunted]

yes 3rd party s/w sells on wii but what kind of s/w?

Good games and bad games


edit: and mediocre games, too

 

[soldat7]

How so? Got research data to back up your assumption?

Do you have research data to the contrary?

I sometimes wonder how many DS fans were actually around during the SNES days.

 

[Captain Smoker]

Good games and bad games


edit: and mediocre games, too

Right. ^^

 

[Haunted]

Do you have research data to the contrary?

So now you don't need to back a claim up, but the burden of proof is on the people hearing said claim? :boggles:


Not that I agree with him or anything, but seriously.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

Do you have research data to the contrary?

I sometimes wonder how many DS fans were actually around during the SNES days.

I was and I still think that the DS has one of the strongest game lineups on a Nintendo console.

It gets even better because the DS train keeps on moving.

 

[Haunted]

I was and I still think that the DS has one of the strongest game lineups on a Nintendo console.

It gets even better because the DS train keeps on moving.

Some are arguing that it's just hitting its stride with the wealth of RPG titles released this year and announced for the next.

 

[Liabe Brave]

And finally:

The situation with third parties on Wii isn't as dire as often claimed, because the huge hardware base allows for longer, thicker sales curves even when the initial bursts aren't as large. But this chart isn't support. Wii sold almost twice as many consoles in those 19 months as 360 had. To barely exceed the third-party figures means either 360 had great numbers, Wii had bad ones, or both.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

Some are arguing that it's just hitting its stride with the wealth of RPG titles released this year and announced for the next.

Not even close, the DS will continue to get more and more amazing games.

It may be hitting its stride according to some people, but it could easily get a second wind of amazing games in the future. Especially since the DS is such a large moneymaker for developers.

 

[jj984jj]

Did you guys get ToV sales yet?

No, and at this rate we never will.

Aww.

 

[Haunted]

The situation with third parties on Wii isn't as dire as often claimed, because the huge hardware base allows for longer, thicker sales curves even when the initial bursts aren't as large. But this chart isn't support. Wii sold almost twice as many consoles in those 19 months as 360 had. To barely exceed the third-party figures means either 360 had great numbers, Wii had bad ones, or both.

It's widely known that the 360 is a third party beast, but then again, I'm not sure third parties care that much about the difference in userbase when the absolute number for the Wii is ultimately higher. 50% of 20 million is still more than 90% of 10 million.


Could third party sales on Wii be better? Of course! Are they beating the competition despite that? They are.

Not even close, the DS will continue to get more and more amazing games.

It may be hitting its stride according to some people, but it could easily get a second wind of amazing games in the future. Especially since the DS is such a large moneymaker for developers.

Man, it really is the gift that keeps on giving. Probably my favourite handheld system ever.