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August 2008 NPD Results
- Thread starter sonycowboy
- Start date
milanbaros
Member?
BishopLamont said:
Jesus christ. That's his gf your talking about. And no she doesn't look like man.
how is it ownage...people assume that gaffers dont have girlfriends or boyfriends a little to much.Puncture said:
wow... you're a fucking asshole, and yes you are the only one.BishopLamont said:
http://www.gameswelike.com/web/pix/LeonCollectionNew.jpg
my collection used to be this big... I sold 3/4ths of it for about $1500.00 here on gaf. Thanks GAF!
AlternativeUlster
Absolutely pathetic part deux
Yeah, I just got all confused Leon with all those consoles set-up. You should consider getting a CD-i though. Burn:Cycle is pretty awesome.
I can imagine that if there was going to be a candidate for a faux NeoGAF videogame elections, I am sure you would be chosen as Nintendo's candidate.
I can imagine that if there was going to be a candidate for a faux NeoGAF videogame elections, I am sure you would be chosen as Nintendo's candidate.
TekunoRobby
Tag of Excellence
_
Last edited:
Ruud_Luiten
Member
ow.. come on. get over it.Aeris130 said:
BishopLamont said:
Yes. Any other questions Mr. Asshole?
Anyway, no offense to LD, you don't need to defend anything, but I've never quite understood why people think it's a good idea to post pictures of themselves or their family on internet message boards, especially if in context of defending yourself. You know; Cans of worms...
Leondexter said:http://www.gameswelike.com/web/pix/LeonCollectionNew.jpg
Here's the collection.
And here's my girlfriend and I:
I was way off on my numbers. I have 777 physical games at the moment, 32 Wii games, 22 X360 games, and 14 PS3 games.
methodman said:
Man of the year contender right here
BishopLamont
Banned
I said she "looks" like a man, not that she is one. Loosen up a little GAF.
vanguardian1
poor, homeless and tasteless
BishopLamont said:
Is there such a thing as genderblind?
justchris said:
http://flyingfisch.wordpress.com/2008/07/12/the-essence-of-videogames/
I think that article is quite fitting to your statements.
border said:
I think that's the point...there is no typical "Wii gamer". First, its audience isn't entirely made up of "casual" players (hate that term) - there are the hardcore Nintendo fanboys, the "lapsed" gamers, the retro-loving gamers, whatever. Second, even if you believe a large percentage of the Wii's audience is "casual", the demographic spread of that group is probably a lot, lot wider than for "hardcore" gamers.
I think at one of Nintendo's financial presentations they showed that they had the largest demographic spread among the systems (or maybe they just showed Nintendo systems and not others - can't remember) - that they had a more balanced split between male and female, kids, teenagers, adults, and seniors, etc. I have no idea how "wide demographic spread" got reduced to "simple and kiddy" (and not just by some posters on NeoGAF, but by companies like EA as well), and how people think one-size will fit all on the Wii, and that "typical Wii gamers" only want limited types of games.
Frankly, it's probably a lot easier to typify "hardcore" gamers with demographic data - male, 14-34 - and to target the sorts of games they want than it is to typify what a "casual" audience will want...and that's been the challenge (and failure) for third-party companies who bank their Wii offerings on their beliefs about some "unified" casual demographic. Probably smarter to give a variety of offerings, or to make games that are so universally appealing (like SMG, or even Guitar Hero, etc.) that they're popular across demographics and across stupid distinctions like "casual" and "hardcore".
jgwhiteus said:
This really, really bugs me.
Why do companies assume that grandmas, soccer moms, soccer dads, and little kids all like the exact same thing?
The casual market is so amazingly pigeonholed. The example i use in the "Casual Family" is the dad who never plays videogames. Why does the industry think that because he isn't overly familiar with videogames he wants to play "Imagine: Footballz"? His appeal isn't the same as his wife, mother, or little girl, even if they are all unfamiliar with videogames.
It seems to me the industry just uses the term "casual" as a euphemism for "cheap shit that normal gamers wouldn't pay for".
The industry seems to think the typical household consists of a teenager that only wants PS3/360 games and everyone else is a soccer mom.
The Dad? Soccer mom.
The little brother/sister? Soccer moms.
The Grandmother? Soccer mom.
This isn't just a problem with the Wii's perception, but also the PS3 and 360's. If you own one of the latter consoles, you are labeled as a nerd who invests too much into videogames, and only wants brown and grey shooters.
What about someone like me? I just want cheap consoles with good games. I don't want "Imagine: Vidyagamez" or "C.O.R.E: THE TALE OF A BADASS SPACE MARINE".
This isn't the problem of the PS3, Wii, or 360. They are all fine systems IMO.
If i were to point fingers it goes to two places:
1. The big-name industry companies who divide the industry into CORE and CASUAL to minimize risk. Don't try to appeal to those in the grey area, and don't lose the money.
2. The enthusiast market on forums like these who fuel, feed, and support the stereotypes. The ignorant ones who post continuously false info about how "only grandmas play the wii". The ignorant ones who post continuously false info about how "only nerds want the PS3 and 360". The trolls, console cheerleaders, viral marketers, and those with an agenda.
On that tangent, say what you want about sales-agers, but if you ask me, it is the typical "hardcore gamer" that is the problem with the industry.
360 price cut should start to yield some very impressive numbers, especially come holiday season and Gears 2 time. Sony really needs to try and get their console down a bit in price if they want to stay even remotely competitive this holiday season. I'm sure they're going to be able to keep the price up there, sell not too many PS3's, but the other 2 machines are going to be able to carry it through, but they just need to get more out there in gamers hands to pump out more software.
Another month of another big MP title selling not to the exact spread of units difference in NA has to be a sigh of relief to Sony and alarming to MS. Especially since perhaps the whole, "all my friends have this version thus so do I" maybe in a shake up seemingly.
The Wii is still riding a iPod hype train (even though the iPod is a great tech device), as they haven't had any major releases recently either as far as I know and it's selling well.
Another month of another big MP title selling not to the exact spread of units difference in NA has to be a sigh of relief to Sony and alarming to MS. Especially since perhaps the whole, "all my friends have this version thus so do I" maybe in a shake up seemingly.
The Wii is still riding a iPod hype train (even though the iPod is a great tech device), as they haven't had any major releases recently either as far as I know and it's selling well.
Threi said:
I also think it shows why the Wii can be more challenging to find success on for certain third parties, and even for Nintendo on occasion. Instead of a concentrated demographic of 14-34 year old males who tend to have similar tastes in games, where you have established genres and advertising avenues, etc. you have a segmented, spread-out demographic of users who don't all like the same things, and in order to reach them you don't have common TV channels, magazines, etc. (of course, I'm greatly simplifying the extent to which 14-34 year old males have similar tastes).
But at the same time, I don't think Nintendo has ever said that a new audience is "easier" to make games for; it's that they represent a growth opportunity. Game publishers can continue to target games at the same demographic, but it doesn't seem to be growing much. If they want higher revenues and profits (especially in the face of higher costs), they need to seek out new people to buy their games. The promise of the Wii was that publishers could not only reach the teenage male, but his father, his younger sister, his grandmother, etc., and that multiple potential purchasers would be better than just one. But I don't think many publishers have figured that out, and instead throw games into a "casual" bin and hope it sticks.
test_account
XP-39C²
Out of curiousity, why did you post this comment? How do you think Leondexter (or anyone else for that sake, that would receives a question like that) feels about a comment like this? Could you have avoided to post this comment here?BishopLamont said:
I don't have a good analogy, but i will try to make up one:
The way i see it is like developers are trying to make a clay sphere into a cube.
The more you chip away, the more it makes it harder to go back to a sphere without significantly reducing the volume. The edges lost in this process, however are people like me who don't want the "extremes" of each console.
(That was a really crappy analogy actually =\)
What i mean is developers provide games that fit a certain demographic. They then attempt to further segment the market and provide more games to that demographic, which segments the market (due to the selection of games having limited appeal to that demographic), which increases the financial risk of them developing games for different demographics.
So to avoid potential financial catastrophe they develop more games (and put more effort into them) for the same market. This further segments the market into a narrower "FOR 15-30 MALES FAMILIAR WITH VIDEOGAMES ONLY" crowd, which further increases the risk of developing games for another demographic. Because of more effort being put in these titles, the appeal is greater for a more narrow demographic. That is where you see the software sales increase. They are making more money, but lowering the ceiling/potential profits at the same time.
E.g. C.O.R.E. 1 is a hit, makes a mil, has some mainstream appeal. 65% of the 10-40 Male crowd purchased it. Sells decent amounts (about 50% of first month) next month. DevX decides to put more guns and boobs in the sequel. C.O.R.E. 2 then is an even bigger hit, makes 1.5mil, but has less mainstream appeal. Now 90% of the 20-30 Male crowd purchased it. They made more money, but narrowed the appeal. A month later extended sales (called "legs" by sales-agers) are nowhere to be seen.
It is a cycle that can't be broken unless developers are willing to risk financial benefits.
The inclusion of the Wii is a blessing and a curse. It is a door to make it easier to reach the "extended market", but at the same time the perception of the system (created by the same developers who have slowly segmented the market) makes the unknown territory even more unknown.
The way i see it is like developers are trying to make a clay sphere into a cube.
The more you chip away, the more it makes it harder to go back to a sphere without significantly reducing the volume. The edges lost in this process, however are people like me who don't want the "extremes" of each console.
(That was a really crappy analogy actually =\)
What i mean is developers provide games that fit a certain demographic. They then attempt to further segment the market and provide more games to that demographic, which segments the market (due to the selection of games having limited appeal to that demographic), which increases the financial risk of them developing games for different demographics.
So to avoid potential financial catastrophe they develop more games (and put more effort into them) for the same market. This further segments the market into a narrower "FOR 15-30 MALES FAMILIAR WITH VIDEOGAMES ONLY" crowd, which further increases the risk of developing games for another demographic. Because of more effort being put in these titles, the appeal is greater for a more narrow demographic. That is where you see the software sales increase. They are making more money, but lowering the ceiling/potential profits at the same time.
E.g. C.O.R.E. 1 is a hit, makes a mil, has some mainstream appeal. 65% of the 10-40 Male crowd purchased it. Sells decent amounts (about 50% of first month) next month. DevX decides to put more guns and boobs in the sequel. C.O.R.E. 2 then is an even bigger hit, makes 1.5mil, but has less mainstream appeal. Now 90% of the 20-30 Male crowd purchased it. They made more money, but narrowed the appeal. A month later extended sales (called "legs" by sales-agers) are nowhere to be seen.
It is a cycle that can't be broken unless developers are willing to risk financial benefits.
The inclusion of the Wii is a blessing and a curse. It is a door to make it easier to reach the "extended market", but at the same time the perception of the system (created by the same developers who have slowly segmented the market) makes the unknown territory even more unknown.
Blablurn said:http://flyingfisch.wordpress.com/2008/07/12/the-essence-of-videogames/
I think that article is quite fitting to your statements.
Hmmm, after finally getting around to reading the article, I don't think we completely agree. We do agree that the art of a game cannot be judged by the criteria of other media, but he judges it based on interactivity, whereas I would judge it based on design, with interactivity being only one component of that design.
Askia47 said:
Yeah, I think that's what's required for success on any system - being in tune with who's buying the system and what appeals to them or potentially appeals to them. But I don't necessarily know if it requires "experimentation" to try to hit all the right demographic notes. This sort of goes against what I've said above, but the danger in focusing too much on the demographics of a console's userbase is that you begin to lose sight of why people play games - for fun, for immersion, for escape, whatever. The central focus should be on the experience the player has with the game, not whether the player is a 15-year old male or a 30-year old female. Demographics do come into play, but a boring game that has all the bells and whistles that the marketing department thinks will appeal to a certain demographic based on their extensive sales research is...still a boring game.
I think the notable sales successes of this generation - for example, Guitar Hero - are successful because their core gameplay is fun or appealing, and not because "20-year old females like guitars" or "30-year old males want to feel like rockstars". Same with the Wii games - it's hard to say exactly who Mario Kart Wii is aimed at, except "everyone". So yeah, sometimes publishers will find success by understanding the demographics of a userbase and creating games that appeal to that userbase, but it's also possible to make games that trump demographics altogether and just appeal across the board.
jgwhiteus said:
Personally I don't feel that all games need to appeal to everyone. Some games no matter how fun they are aren't going to be popular with a certain crowd. Developers need to focus on making the games that they want in fiscally responsible way. There are plenty of developers in Japan that make games that need less than 100k copies sold to be financially successful.
GitarooMan
Member
No offense to leondexter, but I don't see how some random anecdotal gamer story (there are plenty of us on this forum with hundreds of games and tons of consoles) proves anything about larger trends or what types of gamers generally prefer the Wii.
AlternativeUlster
Absolutely pathetic part deux
GitarooMan said:
People were saying all he was, was a stupid Nintendo fanboy that trolls everything for it not being Nintendo and then he pwned them. He just prefers the Wii over the other 2. It is a person's opinion but people don't want to believe that a hardcore gamer can like the Wii over the other 2.
Count Dookkake
Member
GitarooMan said:
It was not intended to prove anything other than absolutes such as "no hardcore gamer could prefer the Wii over PS360" were false.
OldJadedGamer
Banned
duk said:
They really have no choice. If they can't lower the price of the system they will have to add more value in the box like including games that were released last year like Ratchet and Clank. Get a good family title in there with a Blu-ray movie and a coupon for a free downloaded game off of PSN.
Something...
Version 3.0
Member
Wow, thanks for the (mostly) kind words, GAF. And thanks for defending Tirza's honor. She's very feminine.
A new tag would be nice. "Whining loser" got old a long time ago, even if I did earn it fighting Metroid Prime trolls. Even "messy lifestyle" (which is certainly true) would be better. I've never de-railed a thread before, although it looks like it's recovering, which is good. GAF is where I come to discuss the business of games. Actual games, I tend to discuss with my friends.
A new tag would be nice. "Whining loser" got old a long time ago, even if I did earn it fighting Metroid Prime trolls. Even "messy lifestyle" (which is certainly true) would be better. I've never de-railed a thread before, although it looks like it's recovering, which is good. GAF is where I come to discuss the business of games. Actual games, I tend to discuss with my friends.
Opus Angelorum
Member
Microsoft will be very happy with these numbers (compared to the PS3), they will gain a lot of momentum with the price drop going into the holiday season.
Leondexter said:Wow, thanks for the (mostly) kind words, GAF. And thanks for defending Tirza's honor. She's very feminine.
A new tag would be nice. "Whining loser" got old a long time ago, even if I did earn it fighting Metroid Prime trolls. Even "messy lifestyle" (which is certainly true) would be better. I've never de-railed a thread before, although it looks like it's recovering, which is good. GAF is where I come to discuss the business of games. Actual games, I tend to discuss with my friends.
Will the whining loser
be paying his light bill?
(Today, 06:57 PM)
I agree with Threi's sentiment, but I want to express it via the marketing angle, as boring as it sounds.
From my understanding, part of the problem lies in how developers/publishers (AND the press) think that Nintendo's strategy is is to simply cater to specific underserved markets, hence the casual/hardcore rhetoric. However, it's a bit more complex than that.
The thing is to make games through the lens of the job rather than the lens of the demographic. In other words, you have to think about what the game is supposed to accomplish, what its function is, rather than try and guess who will want to play it.
Doing the former brings you games that, whatever their success, have the potential to reach out to different types of customers that might find use in the game for different reasons, while the latter brings you games that have the potential to be caricatures and, again, whatever their success, to appeal to a specific audience.
Which is where I have to quote Threi's very apt statement:
For the sake of being concrete, I'll replace those hypothetical games with the games shown at Ubisoft's E3 press conference (especially the game that's supposed to appeal to girls that like to do sport "the way they want to" or whatever bullshit the guy said) and Epic's Gears of War. While I won't question the intrinsic qualities of either game, it can't be denied that both of them are EXTREMELY caricatural. Ubisoft's entire lineup of Imagine games is a shame to girls and keep the Barbie stereotype going, while GoW, with its testosterone-filled warriors, is laughable from an image standpoint.
While you're not doomed to make a bad game if you try to appeal to specific demographics, first, there is a huge risk to screw up badly and release a game that will only be laughed at. Second, you risk crippling the game's sales. Take Boom Blox: while it has by no means been flopped (especially considering the budget), one can only wonder how much it would have sold if it hadn't be actively marketed to 8 to 12 year olds. At least, if you're going to sell to a specific audience, aim at a large one (say, the family). I guess Zack & Wiki could also be mentioned, as the visual style (down to the boxart) practically dooms it to sell mostly to children. Fortunately it still managed to sell 400k.
On the other hand, if demographics remain an afterthought and you focus on making a good, accessible game with emphasis on what the game is supposed to do, you get Mario Karts and Wii Fits. One is an example of a quality game that can be played however you want: casually/for fun with friends and a wheel, or "seriously" with a classic controller, trying to beat the records in Time Attack mode. The other game focuses on something that games have never been able to achieve well, and, even if some demographics are more prone to buy it and like it, you can still find people playing it on forums like NeoGAF.
Please note that when I use "market(ing)" here, I don't mean "advertise", but the overall design process + the subsequent advertising.
In essence then, the issue is two-fold: first, the industry has been focusing so much on specific demographics (mostly the so-called "hardcore gamers") that the thought process in many development houses is skewed. Second, because it is skewed, those who look at Nintendo's success and try to imitate it come up with lousy, despicable games because they think that's what Nintendo's strategy is about: cater only to people that don't normally play video games by making shovelware for those retarded consumers that don't know shit about "true" games. The truth is never caricatural, and success is not that easy a science.
I'm not saying the marketing angle is the only explanation though, but I think it's one of the core elements of the problem.
From my understanding, part of the problem lies in how developers/publishers (AND the press) think that Nintendo's strategy is is to simply cater to specific underserved markets, hence the casual/hardcore rhetoric. However, it's a bit more complex than that.
The thing is to make games through the lens of the job rather than the lens of the demographic. In other words, you have to think about what the game is supposed to accomplish, what its function is, rather than try and guess who will want to play it.
Doing the former brings you games that, whatever their success, have the potential to reach out to different types of customers that might find use in the game for different reasons, while the latter brings you games that have the potential to be caricatures and, again, whatever their success, to appeal to a specific audience.
Which is where I have to quote Threi's very apt statement:
For the sake of being concrete, I'll replace those hypothetical games with the games shown at Ubisoft's E3 press conference (especially the game that's supposed to appeal to girls that like to do sport "the way they want to" or whatever bullshit the guy said) and Epic's Gears of War. While I won't question the intrinsic qualities of either game, it can't be denied that both of them are EXTREMELY caricatural. Ubisoft's entire lineup of Imagine games is a shame to girls and keep the Barbie stereotype going, while GoW, with its testosterone-filled warriors, is laughable from an image standpoint.
While you're not doomed to make a bad game if you try to appeal to specific demographics, first, there is a huge risk to screw up badly and release a game that will only be laughed at. Second, you risk crippling the game's sales. Take Boom Blox: while it has by no means been flopped (especially considering the budget), one can only wonder how much it would have sold if it hadn't be actively marketed to 8 to 12 year olds. At least, if you're going to sell to a specific audience, aim at a large one (say, the family). I guess Zack & Wiki could also be mentioned, as the visual style (down to the boxart) practically dooms it to sell mostly to children. Fortunately it still managed to sell 400k.
On the other hand, if demographics remain an afterthought and you focus on making a good, accessible game with emphasis on what the game is supposed to do, you get Mario Karts and Wii Fits. One is an example of a quality game that can be played however you want: casually/for fun with friends and a wheel, or "seriously" with a classic controller, trying to beat the records in Time Attack mode. The other game focuses on something that games have never been able to achieve well, and, even if some demographics are more prone to buy it and like it, you can still find people playing it on forums like NeoGAF.
Please note that when I use "market(ing)" here, I don't mean "advertise", but the overall design process + the subsequent advertising.
In essence then, the issue is two-fold: first, the industry has been focusing so much on specific demographics (mostly the so-called "hardcore gamers") that the thought process in many development houses is skewed. Second, because it is skewed, those who look at Nintendo's success and try to imitate it come up with lousy, despicable games because they think that's what Nintendo's strategy is about: cater only to people that don't normally play video games by making shovelware for those retarded consumers that don't know shit about "true" games. The truth is never caricatural, and success is not that easy a science.
I'm not saying the marketing angle is the only explanation though, but I think it's one of the core elements of the problem.
Bearillusion
Banned
I don't see why Leondexter's opinion is now fact simply because he doesn't know how to use ebay. He's likes the Wii. Great.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12787431#post12787431Bearillusion said:
start from there and read each subsequent reply.
*edit* even easier i will slap together a couple quotes.
AlternativeUlster said:
Count Dookkake said:
jman2050 said:
If I'd kept all my games over the years, I'd probably have 777 games too. I had 150+ games for the C64 alone. I don't see how it can be used to justify anything though. EDIT: Just noticed that it's related to some former retarted posts. Fair enough. Of course hardcore gamers can like, or prefer, the Wii.Bearillusion said:
I don't understand collecting or collectors. I'm not a hoarder, and don't have enough time to play the latest games, let alone 777 old ones.