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[Uno Venova]

but AJ's last match was the zenith of move kickout move kickout finisher kickout indie fests.

Meanwhile I can't remember the last Cesaro match that went over 10 minutes?

But the story of Cena racking up finishers unable to put AJ away was a great story.

Patterson interview is good. Talking about how the most important thing in wrestling is telling a story in the ring. How the top guys need to slow down in the ring. Austin agreeing and adding "what's the point of doing all of this stuff if it doesn't add anything to the match"?

Couldn't agree more. As much as I love strong work rate and high spots, at some point 50-75 percent of what you're doing in the ring has no impact when you're just pointlessly busting out move after move.

I think that's one of the major issues with Cesaro. The dude is an absolutely insane worker, but he doesn't often take the time to tell a story in his match. AJ Styles is a guy that can do both, work like an absolute maniac, and makes damn sure to tell a story in all of his matches. It's why he's hands down the best worker right now in business. He's one of the only guys that fully understand what gets people invested in a match. Sami is similar.

I'll also say Charlotte doesn't get enough credit for almost always inserting psychology and story into her matches. Sure, sometimes things don't go to plan, but she gets it. Once she gets more consistent in the ring she'll be remembered as an all-time great.

Sounds like i need to give this a listen, it's exactly the problem I have with most main roster matches, and why a Finn v Seth match isn't automatically good because of high workrate.

 

[Mahonay]

She's been a great foundation for the whole division and does well to get legit heat (boo'd at Takeover!). She definitely deserves a lot of praise. But probably should try not to drop Sasha on her neck.

Sasha definitely doesn't need any extra help hurting herself.

The worst.

 

[bjork]

kick-out fest is only interesting to me if it's guys trying to steal a win with a rollup or a sunset flip or whatever. When a guy is hitting all of his main moves and he can't put the guy away, he looks like Android 19 fighting Vegeta. And we all know how that ended.

 

[Mahonay]

Sounds like i need to give this a listen, it's exactly the problem I have with most main roster matches, and why a Finn v Seth match isn't automatically good because of high workrate.

I think that match was a little better than in got credit for, but yeah. Crowd were totally out of it, but change what you're doing when that happens. Draw them back in if they're being fuckheads about the shitty looking belt. If it looks like you're just working your match regardless of what's going on in the stands, a disconnect can happen.

 

[klonere]

Disagree. Crowd reaction means everything in wrestling. Good workers read the crowd and adjust the match to go with it.

For me personally, it's a major part of pro wrestling.

But you can't rely on the crowd. You don't lay out a match and say "well the crowd will be really hot and that's part of the story". The feud was well built and the two guys are over. They just decided to have a zero psychology spot fest and that's fine, I watch Dragon Gate, I watch American indies I love that sort of match. But you can't hold it up as a great example of AJ's storytelling ability. The Roman matches were a better example of that. I mean the matches were a near copy paste of the Owens matches from last year, so it's as much him as AJ!

 

[Mahonay]

But you can't rely on the crowd. You don't lay out a match and say "well the crowd will be really hot and that's part of the story". The feud was well built and the two guys are over. They just decided to have a zero psychology spot fest and that's fine, I watch Dragon Gate, I watch American indies I love that sort of match. But you can't hold it up as a great example of AJ's storytelling ability. The Roman matches were a better example of that. I mean the matches were a near copy paste of the Owens matches from last year, so it's as much him as AJ!

Cena is an incredible storyteller too when the booking isn't dog shit. He did after all have for one of the greatest matches of the last 15 years with Punk.

Yes, you can't just change who goes over in a match. But the things in between, you can absolutely adjust with how the crowd is reacting. It's what makes a true top guy.

AJ vs Cena was a giant spot fest, but from what I watched it had storytelling too. There's not just one way to tell a story in the match. It's just exceedingly rare for a match like that to have a really solid story to go with it. It's not something other guys should be trying to do. Not everyone is the caliber of an AJ or Cena.

 

[Bluekaveli]

Patterson interview is good. Talking about how the most important thing in wrestling is telling a story in the ring. How the top guys need to slow down in the ring. Austin agreeing and adding "what's the point of doing all of this stuff if it doesn't add anything to the match"?

Couldn't agree more. As much as I love strong work rate and high spots, at some point 50-75 percent of what you're doing in the ring has no impact when you're just pointlessly busting out move after move.

I think that's one of the major issues with Cesaro. The dude is an absolutely insane worker, but he doesn't often take the time to tell a story in his match. AJ Styles is a guy that can do both, work like an absolute maniac, and makes damn sure to tell a story in all of his matches. It's why he's hands down the best worker right now in business. He's one of the only guys that fully understand what gets people invested in a match. Sami is similar.

I'll also say Charlotte doesn't get enough credit for almost always inserting psychology and story into her matches. Sure, sometimes things don't go to plan, but she gets it. Once she gets more consistent in the ring she'll be remembered as an all-time great.

I feel like some people have said this for years, like Cornette. And even though he's right, people go "oh shut up with your old man wrestling old man" and shit.

All of that flippy spot fest shit isn't needed and it sucks because it's devalued so many special moves. Like looking at the cwc almost 75% of the moved being kicked out used to be finishers! Now they just set up a different spot. Even the Rey - Prince Puma match, it was a good match but it was spot after spot.

I hate seeing moves like the frog splash and a superplex to a Falcon arrow being kicked out of. It's great when you get veterans to go against these new guys because they make them slow down their shit and actually tell a story.

but AJ's last match was the zenith of move kickout move kickout finisher kickout indie fests.

Meanwhile I can't remember the last Cesaro match that went over 10 minutes?

Most big Cena matches are kick out fests.
His 3 matches with Shameus were over ten.

 

[klonere]

Btw if you haven't seen Omega vs Naito that's a fucking incredible example of a modern, high workrate match with great storytelling based around selling a limb.

Go watch it! Right now! It's easy to find!

 

[BewareTheBatsie]

 

[Mahonay]

Most big Cena matches are kick out fests.
His 3 matches with Shameus were over ten.

Sheamus matches have improved greatly lately. Helps that he's paired with a good worker right now, but the key thing is that they're having definitive finishes and they're not going overkill with the finishers. I hope it doesn't turn into that. The best of 7 series could end up being great for Cesaro in just slowing him down.

Btw if you haven't seen Omega vs Naito that's a fucking incredible example of a modern, high workrate match with great storytelling based around selling a limb.

Go watch it! Right now! It's easy to find!

Both guys are some of the best minds in the biz. Thing of beauty to watch.

 

[BewareTheBatsie]

Sheamus matches have improved greatly lately. Helps that he's paired with a good worker right now, but the key thing is that they're having definitive finishes and they're not going overkill with the finishers. I hope it don't turn into that. The best of 7 series could end up being great for Cesaro in just slowing him down.

I know it would be stupid but a Best of 7 series like when MVP challenged Matt Hardy to random mini-games would have been fun. Those two playing basketball or arm-wrestling, would be a lot more entertaining to see that then 7 straight-up presumably normal matches in which no stipulations would be added.

 

[Heroman]

Btw if you haven't seen Omega vs Naito that's a fucking incredible example of a modern, high workrate match with great storytelling based around selling a limb.

Go watch it! Right now! It's easy to find!

I find the Tana vs okada match is a better example of that, the story telling in that macth was on a whole different level.

 

[Mahonay]

I know it would be stupid but a Best of 7 series like when MVP challenged Matt Hardy to random mini-games would have been fun. Those two playing basketball or arm-wrestling, would be a lot more entertaining to see that then 7 straight-up presumably normal matches in which no stipulations would be added.

I'm hoping as the series progresses they'll add special stipulations to Cesaro vs Sheamus.

I find the Tana vs okada match is a better example of that, the story telling in that macth was on a whole different level.

The history between those two helps massively.

 

[slightconfuse]

I want more work rate and more kickouts

 

[Bluekaveli]

Sheamus matches have improved greatly lately. Helps that he's paired with a good worker right now, but the key thing is that they're having definitive finishes and they're not going overkill with the finishers. I hope it doesn't turn into that. The best of 7 series could end up being great for Cesaro in just slowing him down.

Both guys are some of the best minds in the biz. Thing of beauty to watch.

With me, I'd rather have the best if seven have more than just wrestling matches so you can see the personality of the two(mainly Cesaro). Booker and Benoit could do it and I wouldn't get bored because you have two guys who are both better than Sheamus and Cesaro so they could easily change it up. Plus, I already watched Cesaro get the upper hand in Sheamus 2 or 3 Raw in a row, why would I want to see it 4 or 7 more times lol.

 

[Heroman]

The best out of seven is dumb cause there is no prize at the end.

 

[Bluekaveli]

The best out of seven is dumb cause there is no prize at the end.

I thought it would be for a title shot? I know Cesaro mentioned it in his ramblings this week.

 

[Marvel]

Little higher and he might have died, fuck me.

 

[Mahonay]

The best out of seven is dumb cause there is no prize at the end.

I thought it would be for a title shot? I know Cesaro mentioned it in his ramblings this week.

Yeah I believe the winner gets a title shot.

 

[slightconfuse]

You guys need to watch hoss battles

All the work rate

 

[Apoc87]

tna mecca is still the only people actually watching the product though

really, the wrestler of the year is shane mcmahon. dude popped a HUGE rating when he returned, more on that night than tna has had in a year. then he provided an all time OMG moment at the biggest wrestling event of all time.

argue against that, friends.

I would argue that the move he did at wm was very unsafe for a guy his age (hell any age) so that brings his rating a bit down in my book.

Plus undertaker moved out of the way and that wasnt very cool to me.

 

[Mahonay]

The Shane vs Undertaker match was like 2 stars honestly.

 

[Anth0ny]

Story telling is always the most important aspect of a wrestling match. Always.

Give me rock/hogan at mania x8 over osprey/ricochet any day.

Of course, a combination of story telling and work rate gives birth to the legendary matches like Austin/Bret.

 

[Mahonay]

Story telling is always the most important aspect of a wrestling match. Always.

Give me rock/hogan at mania x8 over osprey/ricochet any day.

Lol those are not even remotely in the same class as each other. I don't think anyone would even try to make that argument.

BUT, yes you are absolutely right in that Rock vs Hogan had pretty terrible ring work if you really dissect it, but it doesn't even matter because it's one of the greatest stories ever told in a match.

 

[slightconfuse]

2 high flyers trying to one up each other is a great story.

There is room for everything in wrestling that is what makes it great

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Lol those are not even remotely in the same class as each other. I don't think anyone would even try to make that argument.

Someone just did.

 

[bjork]

Alright fellows, time to go build my vault 88. I'm trying to polish off the achievements in Fallout 4, but man do I have a hard time with the workshop interface. I hope vault building is easier than getting a floor to actually lay flat on the ground.

 

[Mahonay]

2 high flyers trying to one up each other is a great story.

There is room for everything in wrestling that is what makes it great

Hmmm...sure. But really the most that's gonna get out of me is "wow these are some sick moves". I'll remember it for like the rest of that year and then it's pretty much completely forgotten after that.

 

[Apoc87]

Story telling is always the most important aspect of a wrestling match. Always.

Give me rock/hogan at mania x8 over osprey/ricochet any day.

Of course, a combination of story telling and work rate gives birth to the legendary matches like Austin/Bret.

The story telling of shane taker imo was bullshit because i knew vince just threw taker at shane so taker could have a payday. That might seem kind of smarky but it factors in. And the fact that taker moved out of the way for that cell jump, and that he wouldnt lay down for shane and he got control of raw anyway cheapened the match even further.

If shane were to fight bray or someone full time for control of raw would have been more epic.

Shane is a good worker tho

 

[Mahonay]

Shane is a good worker tho

He's a terrible worker. He's good at very specific high spots. That's it.

 

[slightconfuse]

Hmmm...sure. But really the most that's gonna get out of me is "wow these are some sick moves". I'll remember it for like the rest of that year and then it's pretty much completely forgotten after that.

That's fair

I enjoy wrasslin of all kinds. There has never been a greater time to be a fan, so much diversity in style and product

 

[Apoc87]

He's a terrible worker. He's good at very specific high spots. That's it.

Ok i should rephrase that as hes a hard worker for someone his age

 

[A Pretty Panda]

https://youtu.be/QHrNqxLBOEc?t=2m8s

Bork Laser telling it like it is

 

[slightconfuse]

Shane is a bad worker because he is a shooter

 

[Mahonay]

https://youtu.be/QHrNqxLBOEc?t=2m8s

Bork Laser telling it like it is

Uhhhh...what the fuck are ratings

lol

 

[Kaiterra]

Yeah, I quickly learned while trying to watch G1 I was better off just skipping huge chunks of it. I eventually settled on watching a few Naito & Omega matches before watching Omega's final two matches.

I usually pick a handful of matches too. What are the ones to watch from this year?

 

[BewareTheBatsie]

Yeah I believe the winner gets a title shot.

They could have done a winner chooses what they wants thing and could have worked Cesaro jumping over to Smackdown since I'm guessing he'll win.

Don't wanna see him be the one to take the US belt off Rusev and if it's actually a world title shot then he'd probably get it on a Raw and not a PPV and lose easily enough.

 

[slightconfuse]

I usually pick a handful of matches too. What are the ones to watch from this year?

Main events of the last 3 days and okada VS ishii

 

[UrbanDandy]

I hope not.

The day they quit relying on anyone who came before about 2010 for a retro pop will be a glorious one.

Did someone say 'glorious?'

 

[Mahonay]

Shane is a bad worker because he is a shooter

Best striker in the business.

 

[Bluekaveli]

Story telling is always the most important aspect of a wrestling match. Always.

Give me rock/hogan at mania x8 over osprey/ricochet any day.

Of course, a combination of story telling and work rate gives birth to the legendary matches like Austin/Bret.

They should've headlined X8

 

[Mahonay]

They should've headlined X8

HHH is too OVAH, to be anythingah, but the main eventahhh.

 

[Mahonay]

 

[BewareTheBatsie]

We're missing out on the greatest fight ever.

vs

 

[FlammableD]

 

[Fantomex]

We're missing out on the greatest fight ever.

vs

But at least no one got hurt. Right Seth? Hehehe

AJ is the best in the business right now. Mic, Skills, In ring Psychology, storyline, Pacing, and he's a white dude with a hip hop entrance song, the total package brother whooooooooo.

 

[imBask]

Dean Ambrose beating up a defenseless gamergater.gif

 

[Bluekaveli]

HHH is too OVAH, to be anythingah, but the main eventahhh.

A feud over a fucking dog

 

[Mahonay]

A feud over a fucking dog

THE DOG IS OVAH

 

[SparkleMotion]

I usually pick a handful of matches too. What are the ones to watch from this year?