Support NeoGAF

[brisk tacos]

you're still looking way too deep into it, you can't tell me you see the same thing when you watch NXT and RAW... Not the same feel, not the same people in charge

Vince is what makes RAW unwatchable

Can you state, unequivocally, what exactly is and is not written or influenced by Vince McMahon on any given show? Are you able to back it up with factual documents or even second hand knowledge? I notice a lot of internet fans like to blame Vince McMahon and Kevin Dunn for everything, with the idea since McMahon has the final say, then anything bad has to be his fault. Yet at the same time, anything good that happens should also be his call, even though the credit always goes to someone else. In the same manner, the production zooms and shaky cam that people complain about comes from the same man who has made WWE production so quality that many people can't watch anything that isn't on that level.

Here's where you're having the disconnect. NXT and Raw/Smackdown use two completely different creative teams.

Different creative teams means nothing. They all use the same process and have the same goals to achieve for the same company. NXT is just a marketing brand to rope in the indie fan audience.

 

[Bronx-Man]

Will you guys be sad when Vince dies? I really want to know.

I will. For better or worse, there would be no WWE without Vinny Mac.

 

[Ithil]

Different creative teams means nothing.

Different things are the same!

 

[jmdajr]

If I was running a promotion with access to Vince McMahon's money and resources, I too would drain the indies dry and take all the best talent to be in my promotion. That seems like common sense to me if I want to have the best promotion I can.

HHH already said in a recent call he would do what's best for NXT first and foremost.

 

[31GhostsIV]

Will you guys be sad when Vince dies? I really want to know.

When Vince dies? Probably. I was sad when Warrior died, and he was a supercunt. Childhood nostalgia is a powerful thing.

When Vince retires? Absolutely not. He should have retired a decade ago.

 

[dream]

Somebody pointed out that Trips is pretty much doing what Vince did. Vince took the talents from the territories and damn near bankrupting them. Trips taking talents from indy promotions and trying to cook up his own version of an indy show. In a way it seems like he's conning the business by hiding the fact of this same doing as Vince. I could be wrong and Triple H really cares about the business and wants NXT to grow. However, until the promotion separates itself from the WWE entirely...it's pretty much a developmental territory with bells and whistles.

This actually ties into a point I made the other day about how there is nobody at the top of the NXT card other than Fin who can be a credible champion. Wouldn't it be interesting if HHH came in to win the NXT title so that he could give a rub to the other guys on the roster?

 

[jmdajr]

When Vince dies? Probably. I was sad when Warrior died, and he was a supercunt. Childhood nostalgia is a powerful thing.

When Vince retires? Absolutely not. He should have retired a decade ago.

Retires? lol.

"Why be sick at home when you can be sick at work."

 

[RP912]

Will you guys be sad when Vince dies? I really want to know.

In a way yeah....

I can't deny the fact that he is an important part of wrestling despite destroying what made wrestling great. Vince took chances and dodge so many bullets. He went against WCW and ended up winning the Monday Night Wars. Most companies would have bowed down and just settle for the defeat. Not Vince though....

I don't care for the way he does business...but I respect the man enough to be sad for him when he gets called to the upper room to book for God.

 

[jmdajr]

And Vince is pretty much never on TV anymore. And yet I am sure I am gonna be really fucking sad.

 

[imBask]

Can you state, unequivocally, what exactly is and is not written or influenced by Vince McMahon on any given show? Are you able to back it up with factual documents or even second hand knowledge? I notice a lot of internet fans like to blame Vince McMahon and Kevin Dunn for everything, with the idea since McMahon has the final say, then anything bad has to be his fault. Yet at the same time, anything good that happens should also be his call, even though the credit always goes to someone else. In the same manner, the production zooms and shaky cam that people complain about comes from the same man who has made WWE production so quality that many people can't watch anything that isn't on that level.



Different creative teams means nothing. They all use the same process and have the same goals to achieve for the same company. NXT is just a marketing brand to rope in the indie fan audience.

every single shoot interview that came out in the past 5 years? the Stone Cold podcast with HHH, the podcast with Heyman, the podcast with Punk, etc. Literally everyone knows from a billion different source that Vince is still the one who makes the final call

it's also been stated multiple time by many people in shoot interviews that Vince doesn't watch NXT and it's HHH's show

 

[Ithil]

HHH already said in a recent call he would do what's best for NXT first and foremost.

The idea that he's specifically targeting promotions and trying to destroy them like a comic book villain is hilarious. It's more a case of "Do whatever is best for your own business, and if some other business gets bulldozed in the process, so be it". WWE is nothing if not self-absorbed.

 

[slightconfuse]

NXT is Blizzard, Raw is Activision

Bobby Kotick is not telling blizzard That jim raynor needs a push

 

[klonere]

I've almost finished the SCSA Podcast with Vampiro.

I've no idea how much of what he said was true, but it was an interesting listen none the less.

Yeah I found it hard to take a lot of what Vampiro said about how things went down in Mexico seriously. I guess drugs will fuck your memory up and all that so he probably just smoothed over the bits he didn't really remember or something?

When Vince dies? Probably. I was sad when Warrior died, and he was a supercunt. Childhood nostalgia is a powerful thing.

When Vince retires? Absolutely not. He should have retired a decade ago.

Vince passing away and retiring are probably inextricably linked. The man exudes that crazy driven entrepreneur who will work till they are forced into their deathbed by an illness and will do so begrudgingly.

 

[brisk tacos]

Different things are the same!

In this case, it's only different based on people doing it. There will always be variations on creative teams in any field doing the same thing for the same company. It doesn't mean they are doing different things.

If we're really going to use Nintendo as a reference, it would be like considering teams making DS games and Wii-U games to be doing different jobs for different companies.

 

[Sephzilla]

Different creative teams means nothing.

Can you state, unequivocally, what exactly is and is not written or influenced by Vince McMahon on any given show? Are you able to back it up with factual documents or even second hand knowledge? I notice a lot of internet fans like to blame Vince McMahon and Kevin Dunn for everything, with the idea since McMahon has the final say, then anything bad has to be his fault. Yet at the same time, anything good that happens should also be his call, even though the credit always goes to someone else. In the same manner, the production zooms and shaky cam that people complain about comes from the same man who has made WWE production so quality that many people can't watch anything that isn't on that level.

I'm also pretty sure any shoot interview on the topic in the last, I don't know, near-decade can confirm that Vince still has final say in everything. Brock going over Taker at WM30 was a that-day Vince decision and I believe that was also confirmed in the Austin interview.

 

[31GhostsIV]

Retires? lol.

"Why be sick at home when you can be sick at work."

I understand that. He's a sad sight to see on TV though, with those weepy eyes and extra wrinkles. He doesn't seem all there, a mere shadow of his former self. Yet he's still pulling all of the strings.

If he lives until 80, he'll still be in control. That's just fucked up.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Can you state, unequivocally, what exactly is and is not written or influenced by Vince McMahon on any given show? Are you able to back it up with factual documents or even second hand knowledge? I notice a lot of internet fans like to blame Vince McMahon and Kevin Dunn for everything, with the idea since McMahon has the final say, then anything bad has to be his fault. Yet at the same time, anything good that happens should also be his call, even though the credit always goes to someone else. In the same manner, the production zooms and shaky cam that people complain about comes from the same man who has made WWE production so quality that many people can't watch anything that isn't on that level.



Different creative teams means nothing. They all use the same process and have the same goals to achieve for the same company. NXT is just a marketing brand to rope in the indie fan audience.

"Please point out specific angles that Vince messed up" is such an absurd response. Saying you won't believe anything until you see the receipts is just silly. Pretty much everyone who has exited the company has put the blame for a lot of the really dumb shit on Vince and that he has no real input on NXT. So no, we can't say for certain that some specific angle on the main roster was written by Vince, but that doesn't mean its not a exceptionally likely statement that his attitude towards the business is why NXT and WWE's main roster are completely different.

 

[Ithil]

Also this thing

Cthe same man who has made WWE production so quality that many people can't watch anything that isn't on that level.

The difference between Dunn and other promotion's equivalent is that Dunn has a budget. The static nature of WWE's production in the last 12 or 13 years says a lot about how "good" he is at his job.

 

[RP912]

If I was running a promotion with access to Vince McMahon's money and resources, I too would drain the indies dry and take all the best talent to be in my promotion. That seems like common sense to me if I want to have the best promotion I can.

True, but why destroy companies by taking their talents...when you can build your own brand by turning unknowns into success stories. The one thing about territories was the fact that it was all love and respect, until Vince just treated them like vermin. I understand it's all in business, but there's got to be morals within the business world to help the industry grow.

This actually ties into a point I made the other day about how there is nobody at the top of the NXT card other than Fin who can be a credible champion. Wouldn't it be interesting if HHH came in to win the NXT title so that he could give a rub to the other guys on the roster?

I wouldn't put it past Trips if he were to do a Jarrett at one point of his life. I doubt he would though since it is his baby.

 

[jmdajr]

I understand that. He's a sad sight to see on TV though, with those weepy eyes and extra wrinkles. He doesn't seem all there, a mere shadow of his former self. Yet he's still pulling all of the strings.

If he lives until 80, he'll still be in control. That's just fucked up.

He's still doing those lat pull exercises. Gotta have a strong looking back.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Thick biz is the most distracting shit during CMLL. Makes me feel like jpeepz. I can't help it.

 

[klonere]

every single shoot interview that came out in the past 5 years? the Stone Cold podcast with HHH, the podcast with Heyman, the podcast with Punk, etc. Literally everyone knows from a billion different source that Vince is still the one who makes the final call

it's also been stated multiple time by many people in shoot interviews that Vince doesn't watch NXT and it's HHH's show

The recent TIJ with the New Day had them going into meetings with Vince about getting their tag team gimmick together for months. They wanted to be a more heel stable at right off the top, guys who were mad at not getting their shot with a Migos style theme song. They went through with this and even shot some stuff for TV.

Then nothing happened, Vince called them back in a few weeks later and said "Your going to be a babyface team and your going to be preachers and you are going to sing and clap and your name is going to be Fresh Coat of Paint (alt name House of Positive Energy. Yes that's HOPE)". This is after Big E had mentioned in passing his dad was a pastor and he had done some preaching in the past.

Vince was shocked, geniunely shocked when the New Day as babyfaces didn't get over huge and the Raw after Wrestlemania crowd rescued them from being a jobber tag team that was never on TV.

Vince has the final say in everything

 

[brisk tacos]

every single shoot interview that came out in the past 5 years? the Stone Cold podcast with HHH, the podcast with Heyman, the podcast with Punk, etc. Literally everyone knows from a billion different source that Vince is still the one who makes the final call

it's also been stated multiple time by many people in shoot interviews that Vince doesn't watch NXT and it's HHH's show

"Please point out specific angles that Vince messed up" is such an incredible cop-out response. Pretty much everyone who has exited the company has put the blame for a lot of the really dumb shit on Vince and that he has no real input on NXT. So no, we can't say for certain that some specific angle on the main roster was written by Vince, but that doesn't mean its not a exceptionally likely statement that his attitude towards the business is why NXT and WWE's main roster are completely different.

How is it possible that Vince McMahon, ultimately the boss of everything under the WWE umbrella for good and bad, only gets credit for the bad? Vince McMahon may not watch NXT and be hands off, but it is his money funding it, his company producing it. NXT would not exist without Vince McMahon.

 

[Dr Duncan Steel]

HBK just had zero shame didn't he?

 

[jmdajr]

The recent TIJ with the New Day had them going into meetings with Vince about getting their tag team gimmick together for months. They wanted to be a more heel stable at right off the top, guys who were mad at not getting their shot with a Migos style theme song. They went through with this and even shot some stuff for TV.

Then nothing happened, Vince called them back in a few weeks later and said "Your going to be a babyface team and your going to be preachers and you are going to sing and clap and your name is going to be Fresh Coat of Paint". This is after Big E had mentioned in passing his dad was a pastor and he had done some preaching in the past.

Vince was shocked, geniunely shocked when the New Day as babyfaces didn't get over huge and the Raw after Wrestlemania crowd rescued them from being a jobber tag team that was never on TV.

Vince has the final say in everything

Can people learn to fear/"respect" Steph and HHH like the do Vince? I know in WCW they just ran all over Bischoff. Company can't be run that way.

 

[RP912]

HBK just had zero shame didn't he?

HBK doing the Gangnam Style dance before it became a song...

 

[Ithil]

True, but why destroy companies by taking their talents...when you can build your own brand by turning unknowns into success stories. The one thing about territories was the fact that it was all love and respect, until Vince just treated them like vermin. I understand it's all in business, but there's got to be morals within the business world to help the industry grow.
I wouldn't put it past Trips if he were to do a Jarrett at one point of his life. I doubt he would though since it is his baby.

That takes years and years to do, and you have no guarantee that the unknowns you sign will turn into anything. For every Enzo they have in NXT, there's ten Mojos.

You can sign 25 bodybuilders, footballers, strongmen, actors or whatever. Three years later, you might find that a mere one of them worked out as a wrestler, the rest all failed to do much.
Meanwhile you see 10 indie guys in a tryout, and sign 6 of them. Six months later, all of them are on TV, doing well.

It's a shortcut, but hell, it worked for every promotion ever, pre-WWE monopoly. That's not to say you shouldn't sign lots of unknowns to find some diamonds among the rough, but it can't be your main thing if developmental now has to be a "third brand" with big Network specials with big expectations.

 

[Sephzilla]

How is it possible that Vince McMahon, ultimately the boss of everything under the WWE umbrella for good and bad, only gets credit for the bad? Vince McMahon may not watch NXT and be hands off, but it is his money funding it, his company producing it. NXT would not exist without Vince McMahon.

Vince would get credit for NXT if he had any direct input into NXT. Simply throwing money into something and doing nothing else doesn't mean you get the credit for it - why do you think Eric Bischoff gets more credit for WCW's creative ideas than Ted Turner? Vince has also gotten plenty of credit for good ideas in his time - see: the Rock & Wrestling connection, the Attitude Era....

 

[Angry Grimace]

True, but why destroy companies by taking their talents...when you can build your own brand by turning unknowns into success stories. The one thing about territories was the fact that it was all love and respect, until Vince just treated them like vermin. I understand it's all in business, but there's got to be morals within the business world to help the industry grow.



I wouldn't put it past Trips if he were to do a Jarrett at one point of his life. I doubt he would though since it is his baby.

That was the point of NXT, but they really haven't successfully produced any talent that they didn't poach from the indies.

Besides, I don't even really understand that attitude. Buying existing talent is a completely legit way to run your business.

 

[klonere]

On another TIJ with Sheamus the 17 second match with Dbry was booked the day before, changing plans from having a longer match that they had been promised for months.

DBry won MiTB because he was doing some media stuff in a town nearby where the PPV was happening.

There's your receipts.

 

[jmdajr]

How is it possible that Vince McMahon, ultimately the boss of everything under the WWE umbrella for good and bad, only gets credit for the bad? Vince McMahon may not watch NXT and be hands off, but it is his money funding it, his company producing it. NXT would not exist without Vince McMahon.

Vince has made Brock look incredible. He was willing to piss off the fans to do that. It's worked out though. No doubt in my mind.

It worked out so well now he doesn't know what to do now.

 

[jmdajr]

That was the point of NXT, but they really haven't successfully produced any talent that they didn't poach from the indies.

Besides, I don't even really understand that attitude. Buying existing talent is a completely legit way to run your business.

Yup. That's what Software companies do. Constantly. All companies really.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Vince has made Brock look incredible. He was willing to piss off the fans to do that. It's worked out though. No doubt in my mind.

It worked out so well now he doesn't know what to do now.

I think I'm one of the only people who doesn't really like Invincible Brock Lesnar. I just find anyone being invincible kind of dumb.

 

[imBask]

How is it possible that Vince McMahon, ultimately the boss of everything under the WWE umbrella for good and bad, only gets credit for the bad? Vince McMahon may not watch NXT and be hands off, but it is his money funding it, his company producing it. NXT would not exist without Vince McMahon.

We're not blaming everything on Vince, why do YOU blame everything on anyone but him? He runs RAW, it's his show and he has the final input on what goes on. The result? RAW is fucking garbage 90% of the time
He has no input whatsoever in NXT other than signing the paychecks. The result? NXT is good 90% of the time

It's a false correlation, it might not be 100% because of him, but he's MOST LIKELY a big part of it.

 

[klonere]

Vince has made Brock look incredible. He was willing to piss off the fans to do that. It's worked out though. No doubt in my mind.

It worked out so well now he doesn't know what to do now.

It worked out because a) Brock is too smart and too much of a draw to have to succumb to weekly TV, the death of many a good performer and b) Accomplishments outside of the WWE that VKM has nothing to with make him feel more legit.

So he became the companies most over babyface post WM and their big program was with.....the other biggest babyface in the company.

 

[YesManKablam]

Yeah I found it hard to take a lot of what Vampiro said about how things went down in Mexico seriously. I guess drugs will fuck your memory up and all that so he probably just smoothed over the bits he didn't really remember or something?

The drugs probably didn't help, but everybody else says that Vamp is a complete bullshiter. Still a fun listen though.

 

[Sephzilla]

I think I'm one of the only people who doesn't really like Invincible Brock Lesnar. I just find anyone being invincible kind of dumb.

The payoff was supposed to be that whomever finally defeats Lesnar becomes a big fucking deal. Unfortunately WWE kind of screwed the pooch with that one because instead of someone cleanly beating Brock and shattering that invincibility, they've just had Brock lose by increasingly screwy means.

We're not blaming everything on Vince, why do YOU blame everything on anyone but him? He runs RAW, it's his show and he has the final input on what goes on. The result? RAW is fucking garbage 90% of the time
He has no input whatsoever in NXT other than signing the paychecks. The result? NXT is good 90% of the time

It's a false correlation, it might not be 100% because of him, but he's MOST LIKELY a big part of it.

Vince also wasn't as involved in the Japan special as he was a normal Raw, that ended up being a pretty decent show too. Cole's commentary was also noticeably better because Vince wasn't in his ear.

 

[jmdajr]

I think I'm one of the only people who doesn't really like Invincible Brock Lesnar. I just find anyone being invincible kind of dumb.

I like it. In my opinion it works in this fiction. I have no issue with it.

 

[Oersted]

The payoff was supposed to be that whomever finally defeats Lesnar becomes a big fucking deal. Unfortunately WWE kind of screwed the pooch with that one because instead of someone cleanly beating Brock and shattering that invincibility, they've just had Brock lose by increasingly screwy means.

Was that plan ever confirmed?

 

[Angry Grimace]

The payoff was supposed to be that whomever finally defeats Lesnar becomes a big fucking deal. Unfortunately WWE kind of screwed the pooch with that one because instead of someone cleanly beating Brock and shattering that invincibility, they've just had Brock lose by increasingly screwy means.

Yeah, Lesnar matches only have two outcomes - Lesnar wins convincingly or Lesnar loses in a fuck finish.

It doesn't help that they don't have anyone on the roster who really needs/deserves the kind of payoff you'd get from cleanly pinning Lesnar.

Was that plan ever confirmed?

It just seems obvious. There's no other reason to book someone as being unbeatable in the main event picture over like 2 years.

 

[brisk tacos]

Vince would get credit for NXT if he had any direct input into NXT. Simply throwing money into something and doing nothing else doesn't mean you get the credit for it - why do you think Eric Bischoff gets more credit for WCW's creative ideas than Ted Turner?

Because wrestling fans are silly, sometimes. Without Turner's money, Bischoff never would have been able to hire the talent and big names that allowed him to make WCW successful. This is standard "people don't know what an executive producer really does" type stuff. WCW ultimately failed as soon as they stopped getting Time Warner money and TV time. They could have had the greatest writers and wrestlers in the world and it wouldn't have mattered at that point. Anyone giving sole credit to Bischoff has no idea how businesses work.

 

[klonere]

How is it possible that Vince McMahon, ultimately the boss of everything under the WWE umbrella for good and bad, only gets credit for the bad? Vince McMahon may not watch NXT and be hands off, but it is his money funding it, his company producing it. NXT would not exist without Vince McMahon.

How is it that the NXT women are one of the biggest draws, are given time and effort by creative and are allowed to co-main event PPVs and once they hit Raw they are given the hottest garbage to work with this side of the Ascension and have their heat leeched off by a heel authority figure who happens to be a McMahon.

Vince signs the cheques and okays the big moves I'm sure but thats about it I'd say. NXT is HHH's proving ground for Wall Street types who aren't convinced he can run a public company without an MBA from Havard.

 

[Sephzilla]

Was that plan ever confirmed?

Anyone who would book that angle smartly would end it with someone defeating the beast and getting a major rub out of it. Main-show WWE doesn't book things smartly though which is why, for example, The Authority didn't go away after Bryan defeated them at WM30 and why Lesnar was never fairly beaten.

Because wrestling fans are silly, sometimes. Without Turner's money, Bischoff never would have been able to hire the talent and big names that allowed him to make WCW successful. This is standard "people don't know what an executive producer really does" type stuff. WCW ultimately failed as soon as they stopped getting Time Warner money and TV time. They could have had the greatest writers and wrestlers in the world and it wouldn't have mattered at that point. Anyone giving sole credit to Bischoff has no idea how businesses work.

Congratulations on completely missing my point.

 

[jmdajr]

Lesnar is staying on top until he quits.

 

[RP912]

That takes years and years to do, and you have no guarantee that the unknowns you sign will turn into anything. For every Enzo they have in NXT, there's ten Mojos.

You can sign 25 bodybuilders, footballers, strongmen, actors or whatever. Three years later, you might find that a mere one of them worked out as a wrestler, the rest all failed to do much.
Meanwhile you see 10 indie guys in a tryout, and sign 6 of them. Six months later, all of them are on TV, doing well.

It's a shortcut, but hell, it worked for every promotion ever, pre-WWE monopoly. That's not to say you shouldn't sign lots of unknowns to find some diamonds among the rough, but it can't be your main thing if developmental now has to be a "third brand" with big Network specials with big expectations.

Fair enough...I'm just for growth in the industry. Yes it is a shortcut, but it can be harmful if there is no gain out of the indie company with the diamonds in the rough. Back in the days, its was all about loaning and talent swapping. I wish those days were here instead of complete buyouts that could put a company in the gutter (AWA).

That was the point of NXT, but they really haven't successfully produced any talent that they didn't poach from the indies.

Besides, I don't even really understand that attitude. Buying existing talent is a completely legit way to run your business.

Yet, it's destroying other businesses in the process. Imagine if Trip was like fuck it... I'm going for all the main eventers to make this promotion rise above all. That's turning a industry into one big monopoly. There wouldn't be no alternative to indy wrestling besides NXT if Trips went down that route.

 

[Ithil]

That was the point of NXT, but they really haven't successfully produced any talent that they didn't poach from the indies.

Besides, I don't even really understand that attitude. Buying existing talent is a completely legit way to run your business.

The idea was they have this big fancy training center and loads of talented trainers and facilities, it should be easy to get tons of WWE-trained talent from scratch, right? In practice it hasn't been so easy, and now the change in expectations for NXT has meant they need good talent and they need it right now. If they want to promote it as a third brand they can't just use rookie footballers turned wrestlers having FCW level matches.

The Baron Corbins and Dana Brookes take years to train up, and there's no guarantee he will be any good at the end. But you get immediate success with a Kevin Owens. So now they're signing indie guys they'd never have looked at before, and the emphasis on WWE-trained talent is in the background for now.

 

[avengers23]

Since we're bringing up old dirt, just a reminder that Vince has been sued for allegedly sexually harassing women (see Rita Chatterton and Sable).

 

[Verendus]

Yeah, Lesnar matches only have two outcomes - Lesnar wins convincingly or Lesnar loses in a fuck finish.

It doesn't help that they don't have anyone on the roster who really needs/deserves the kind of payoff you'd get from cleanly pinning Lesnar.

There is... ONE MAN.

And it's going to happen.

Balee dat.

 

[klonere]

Yeah, Lesnar matches only have two outcomes - Lesnar wins convincingly or Lesnar loses in a fuck finish.

It doesn't help that they don't have anyone on the roster who really needs/deserves the kind of payoff you'd get from cleanly pinning Lesnar.



It just seems obvious. There's no other reason to book someone as being unbeatable in the main event picture over like 2 years.

If they could build a convincing babyface to take the clean win over Brock eventually that is a made man right fucking there.

Alas, tis not to be it seems.

Spoiler

Fuck it let Rollins have it

 

[Angry Grimace]

I don't even buy that. The idea that you can work your way into main eventing an 80,000 person event is a pretty good incentive for talent to get into the business, and most of these dudes start in those indies, who then benefit from that.