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[legend166]

The idea that you can copyright data/statistics annoys me a bit.

Gary Ablett getting 42 possessions is a fact that occurred in the public domain, essentially. To say you 'own' that information just bothers me. I understand that the AFL collected that data, which I guess gives them some rights over it, but I dunno. Just seems annoying.

Good to see it doesn't look like the AFL really care.

If only NPD were the same.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

to be fair, the NPD is a business. they trade in numbers. giving up their numbers means giving up their business.

what they need is a competitor.

 

[Choc]

Could Shady perhaps make a free app and put iAds in it? Would that be some sort of weird grey area?

yes as its a commercial product (advertising)

 

[Choc]

The idea that you can copyright data/statistics annoys me a bit.

Gary Ablett getting 42 possessions is a fact that occurred in the public domain, essentially. To say you 'own' that information just bothers me. I understand that the AFL collected that data, which I guess gives them some rights over it, but I dunno. Just seems annoying.

Good to see it doesn't look like the AFL really care.

If only NPD were the same.

The AFL run the league where that data was generated, its not really in the public domain, it occured as part of a league where they own the copyright.

The NPD pays retailers to get this data and install the shit that needs to be done for the tracking. Therefore they own that as they have paid the fee etc.


most people don't care about their data being used until it comes to the point where people are making money off it

If you build up a league and invest millions of dollars and run the competition, why should someone take the data generated by your league and not have to pay a royalty?

If shady was watching every AFL game at the same time and recording and updating the data, then that is different, that would be allowed. But using AFL feeds which the AFL provides and uses AFL infrastructure is a whole other ball game. They are generating the data so they own it.

imo

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

i believe agyar is a lawyer or in law so he might be able to comment

Uh... I think he's in IT. I could be wrong though.

 

[Agyar]

The idea that you can copyright data/statistics annoys me a bit.

Gary Ablett getting 42 possessions is a fact that occurred in the public domain, essentially. To say you 'own' that information just bothers me. I understand that the AFL collected that data, which I guess gives them some rights over it, but I dunno. Just seems annoying.

Good to see it doesn't look like the AFL really care.

If only NPD were the same.

This is where the copyright law around "data" and data feeds becomes interesting. To my understanding from cases such as Ice TV v Nine Network, you can't copyright facts or information but you can copyright the organisation/aggregation/presentation of that information. That said, adapting and disseminating "public" information (such as TV station schedules) for commercial use is fine. It would only become an issue if you were reproducing an aggregation/presentation of the information or if the information was deemed to be creative in nature (which in Ice TV v Nine it was not).

Also for the record, I'm not a lawyer.

Spoiler

Although I am considering returning to Uni to study post-grad Law as IT project management isn't all it's cracked up to be.

 

[Ventron]

Did anyone else see the Kmart catalogue where they're selling "Sega Megadrives" (note quotation marks) for $49? It has games preinstalled but the picture looks like it has a cartridge slot.

 

[Gazunta]

They're selling two MegaDrive products at the moment, both made by Blaze.

One is a MegaDrive that looks just like a real console. It has games built in and has a working cartridge port that plays most original MegaDrive carts. (Some don't work...but it's a small list that have problems)

The other is a Nomad-esque portable that has games built in and has TV out. Cute, but you're better off going for the console to plug into your TV unless you really, really want to play Streets of Rage on the train

Spoiler

and you don't have a MegaDrive emulator on your "customised" DS / PSP / smartphone

 

[VOOK]

Sup bitches?

 

[legend166]

The AFL run the league where that data was generated, its not really in the public domain, it occured as part of a league where they own the copyright.

The NPD pays retailers to get this data and install the shit that needs to be done for the tracking. Therefore they own that as they have paid the fee etc.


most people don't care about their data being used until it comes to the point where people are making money off it

If you build up a league and invest millions of dollars and run the competition, why should someone take the data generated by your league and not have to pay a royalty?

If shady was watching every AFL game at the same time and recording and updating the data, then that is different, that would be allowed. But using AFL feeds which the AFL provides and uses AFL infrastructure is a whole other ball game. They are generating the data so they own it.

imo

But at the end of the day, all a site like Shady's does is feed more interest into the AFL. Which is why I don't think they care if people use their stats.

 

[Agyar]

The AFL run the league where that data was generated, its not really in the public domain, it occured as part of a league where they own the copyright.

The NPD pays retailers to get this data and install the shit that needs to be done for the tracking. Therefore they own that as they have paid the fee etc.


most people don't care about their data being used until it comes to the point where people are making money off it

If you build up a league and invest millions of dollars and run the competition, why should someone take the data generated by your league and not have to pay a royalty?

If shady was watching every AFL game at the same time and recording and updating the data, then that is different, that would be allowed. But using AFL feeds which the AFL provides and uses AFL infrastructure is a whole other ball game. They are generating the data so they own it.

imo

There's a few key differences here. What NPD sells to clients is not merely data and further, the information they obtain is through their own research and not released publicly. The AFL data is derived from results of publicly viewable sporting matches and as such, there's no claimable copyright over that information itself. Even in the NPDs case, I highly doubt they can copyright the information itself, but they could copyright the reporting and analysis through which the data is presented and because they sell it, contractually obligate clients not to publicly release the data (and if they did, the litigation would be over contract law not copyright).

To answer your second point about the AFL's infrastructure, there may be some case for the AFL to require compensation for commercial activity utilising their IT infrastructure (e.g. server/bandwidth costs for providing the data) but this would not relate to copyright of the data itself.

It all comes back to the basis of copyright law, which is to protect creative works and isn't designed to allow persons (corporations or otherwise) to "own" information and facts.

 

[legend166]

My beef with NPD is that we have two separate tracking companies in Japan who have no problem giving out weekly top 30s, bi-annual top 100s, and yearly top 500s, where as NPD don't put out crap and claim they own the data. It's so stupid.

 

[Choc]

Did anyone else see the Kmart catalogue where they're selling "Sega Megadrives" (note quotation marks) for $49? It has games preinstalled but the picture looks like it has a cartridge slot.

scans pls

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

My beef with NPD is that we have two separate tracking companies in Japan who have no problem giving out weekly top 30s, bi-annual top 100s, and yearly top 500s, where as NPD don't put out crap and claim they own the data. It's so stupid.

Not like GfK are any better.

 

[Choc]

My beef with NPD is that we have two separate tracking companies in Japan who have no problem giving out weekly top 30s, bi-annual top 100s, and yearly top 500s, where as NPD don't put out crap and claim they own the data. It's so stupid.

there's your answer. NPD has a monopoly, why would it just hand it out.

Also you have to remember the publishers may not want this data in the public domain. I believe it was the publishers who led the push to get all SKUs correlated as one sale number

the amount of shitfighting, plus arguments plus bomba comments on forums etc when NPD comes out does not help one iota

does this happen on Japanese forums? i dunno, but publishers do not want their games looking bad.

Publishers pay NPD fee get NPD data and probably have quite a sway over how NPD functions.

There was a time (a very short time) NPD refused to give anything to the media and the media went bananas.

 

[Agyar]

there's your answer. NPD has a monopoly, why would it just hand it out.

Also you have to remember the publishers may not want this data in the public domain. I believe it was the publishers who led the push to get all SKUs correlated as one sale number

the amount of shitfighting, plus arguments plus bomba comments on forums etc when NPD comes out does not help one iota

does this happen on Japanese forums? i dunno, but publishers do not want their games looking bad.

Publishers pay NPD fee get NPD data and probably have quite a sway over how NPD functions.

There was a time (a very short time) NPD refused to give anything to the media and the media went bananas.

As Choc says, there's many reasons for that NPD doesn't release the data publicly and that firms contracting them to provide data and analysis would not want it released publicly either but none of this relates to copyright. It would be a similar scenario if the AFL removed the ability to access their live feed and sold access to it. They would not be claiming ownership of or selling the information itself, rather they would be selling access to and provision of information gathered by themselves (as NPD does). If someone at home watched AFL matches and published the results in a publicly available feed, they would not be infringing on any copyright owned by the AFL and the AFL.

 

[AnkhWeasel]

It begins - 3DS bundles for $348 at Big W: console + starter kit + Rayman / Ghost Recon.

Also, Splinter Cell and Asphalt 3D are listed at $59 - introductory offer or sign that games won't all be $80?

 

[Choc]

games rrp range from 69-79 apparently

big w is like cheap


thats not a bad price on the system plus ubi game why not include splinter cell though as an option ;_;

 

[hamchan]

Rayman 2 is the best out of all those games anyways. I say no thanks to a janky version of Splinter Cell.

 

[Gazunta]

God damn it I forgot about Ghost Recon I really, really, really want that game...

In non gaming news, it costs a fuckton of money to ship books overseas. Stupid non digital books :/

 

[codswallop]

If the AFL wanted to be total bastards they could argue

I have a little second hand knowledge of AFL practices. I'm amazed you could even get data from them for free use!

I would be VERY careful about trying to make money from AFL data, even if it's not directly from AFL. I believe they're incredibly protective of what they deem their property/data/IP, even more than NFL, MLB etc.

 

[Ydahs]

Lots of head scratching discussion going on here. My sister's friend is studying law, so I think I'll show her that quote on the AFL website and try to get her opinion on the matter.

It begins - 3DS bundles for $348 at Big W: console + starter kit + Rayman / Ghost Recon.

Also, Splinter Cell and Asphalt 3D are listed at $59 - introductory offer or sign that games won't all be $80?

You know... that BIG W deal is actually very good. It's like you're getting the console for ~$280. I can see a few other stores doing similar deals too.

I want to hold out but

edit: woah, LBP2 only $64 at JB. Are games becoming cheaper in general in Australia?

 

[Agyar]

I have a little second hand knowledge of AFL practices. I'm amazed you could even get data from them for free use!

I would be VERY careful about trying to make money from AFL data, even if it's not directly from AFL. I believe they're incredibly protective of what they deem their property/data/IP, even more than NFL, MLB etc.

From what people have posted, they are the ones providing the live feed so unless they want to turn that off, the cat is out of the bag.

 

[Choc]

Lots of head scratching discussion going on here. My sister's friend is studying law, so I think I'll show her that quote on the AFL website and try to get her opinion on the matter.


You know... that BIG W deal is actually very good. It's like you're getting the console for ~$280. I can see a few other stores doing similar deals too.

I want to hold out but

edit: woah, LBP2 only $64 at JB. Are games becoming cheaper in general in Australia?

no unfortunately LBP2 was bomba

yes i suggest some level of legal advice before you sell shit shady



if you did what you did with NFL data they would probably take you down without even being commercial, they are complete fucks with their 'IP'

 

[codswallop]

From what people have posted, they are the ones providing the live feed so unless they want to turn that off, the cat is out of the bag.

I'd say they would be providing it for "entertainment" and noncommercial purposes only, though. AFL are super-protective of the whole brand and everything associated with it, unless things have changed dramatically in the past six months.

The take away from this is that you should approach any commercial venture using another's data very carefully. What if they changed it? What if it stopped working? Are they under and obligation to keep it running? What if you sell software relying on the AFL feed and they decide to discontinue it? If you want to make money, even if it were to cover costs, I would suggest approaching the AFL or keep it free initially, and hope they contact you.

 

[legend166]

Yeah, the AFL is no where near as protective as the NFL. They are insane.

 

[Kritz]

By the way, if anyone happens to own Two Worlds 2 on PC, give me a shout. I wouldn't mind giving some of the coop shit a spin.

Note: I also recommend anyone who likes Eastern ass European games that are broken 90% of the time 100% of the time but are so charming and amazing that you can't help but sink all your life into them... well, this is a game for you. Like, it's basically Oblivion except you play as mentally challenged Adolf Hitler. It's both the worst game I've ever played and the best game I'll ever play rolled into a ball and thrown into my face at high velocity.

5/5 stars - kritz.neogaf.net

 

[legend166]

I'd say they would be providing it for "entertainment" and noncommercial purposes only, though. AFL are super-protective of the whole brand and everything associated with it, unless things have changed dramatically in the past six months.

This tells me they don't care if people use the stats for commercial reasons:

Please be aware that all live statistics and scores displayed on the AFL website are provisional and not official and as such should not be re-purposed for commercial use. If any persons intend to use the statistics displayed on the site for commercial purposes ( tipping comps, fantasy football competitions, graphics displays, licensed products, etc) please note that the final scores / statistics will not be ratified until COB on the first business day after the completion of a round at the earliest.

 

[Shaneus]

edit: woah, LBP2 only $64 at JB. Are games becoming cheaper in general in Australia?

Are you in Melb., Shady? Zone Adrenalan is selling (what I assume to be a UK) LBP2 for $50, only $45 if you pay cash instore. Almost bought it today, probably will tomorrow... depends on how much I enjoy TDU2.

 

[AnkhWeasel]

Are you in Melb., Shady? Zone Adrenalan is selling (what I assume to be a UK) LBP2 for $50, only $45 if you pay cash instore. Almost bought it today, probably will tomorrow... depends on how much I enjoy TDU2.

If not, I picked it up from GamesPlus, $49 delivered. Pretty quick delivery to Perth, Australian copy.

 

[hamchan]

I am shocked, SHOCKED that LBP2 bombed.

(nah not really)

 

[codswallop]

This tells me they don't care if people use the stats for commercial reasons:

If that's what the AFL says, great. I had a quick look and couldn't even find the feed, myself!

I'd still be wary and would recommend that at the very least you cache the data you're collecting from them, in case they change things without notice.

In some aspects, AFL are actually more protective than NFL (and single AFL clubs are even more over-protective). NFL, for instance, doesn't mind if NFL and MLB are on say the same billboard. From what I understand, AFL wouldn't even want NRL or A League anywhere near AFL advertisements.

 

[Agyar]

I'd say they would be providing it for "entertainment" and noncommercial purposes only, though. AFL are super-protective of the whole brand and everything associated with it, unless things have changed dramatically in the past six months.

They can say what they want but as discussed, they can't copyright the information itself. The High Court ruled on this pretty explicity in Ice TV v Nine.

It would be more likely that in a situation like this, where Shady disseminated and utilised the data in a commercial venture that, if they wished to, the AFL would pursue him through other avenues (most likely commercial use of the AFL's brand, that being the use of the brand to promote his website). Unless he was reproducing the feed data itself, there would be no grounds for a copyright claim. They could try but given the High Court ruling on Ice TV v Nine, I doubt it would get far.

As suggested by others though, legal advice is highly recommended in a situation like this. There are always avenues to pursue people legally, whether they're founded or not is another question and the threat of being dragged to court to prove it is enough to make most people stand down.

Spoiler

I really should look at post-grade Law options again.

 

[VOOK]

LBP2 came out?

 

[AnkhWeasel]

LBP2 came out?

So did Mario Sports Mix, apparently.

 

[MrSerrels]

It winds me up that LBP2 bombed. That game just wasn't marketed correctly at all.

Every time I show it to non-gamers they lose their minds. Girls lose their minds, older lapsed gamers lose their minds. First and foremost it's a really fun, accessible, rewarding platformer - why not sell it based on that?

I understand that the tools should be the selling point, and that's the point of difference, but everyday I kept seeing billboards on train stations - claiming that 'everyday people were making new levels for me to play' - but the general public don't care or even understand what that means.

 

[Nemesis_]

I didn't realise it actually bombed. Where I was, all the people were crazy for it. >_>

Still, I have to admit for some reason I am not interested in it at all. I know I should be, but the spark just isn't there! =/

 

[Deeku]

I bought it on release for 89 and only played it for an hour

I really need to stop buying games day 1.

 

[Kritz]

I didn't realise it actually bombed. Where I was, all the people were crazy for it. >_>

Still, I have to admit for some reason I am not interested in it at all. I know I should be, but the spark just isn't there! =/

Won't be interested in LBP2 until someone programs it inside minecraft

Spoiler

inside LBP2.

 

[Bernbaum]

It winds me up that LBP2 bombed. That game just wasn't marketed correctly at all.

Every time I show it to non-gamers they lose their minds. Girls lose their minds, older lapsed gamers lose their minds. First and foremost it's a really fun, accessible, rewarding platformer - why not sell it based on that?

I understand that the tools should be the selling point, and that's the point of difference, but everyday I kept seeing billboards on train stations - claiming that 'everyday people were making new levels for me to play' - but the general public don't care or even understand what that means.

It winds me up that games have about a one-month life at retail.

Folk work their arses off for years and then have the skinniest of time windows in which to reap a reward.

I thought reeaaaal long and hard about buying LBP2 - a game I would no doubt love, but not have the time to appreciate properly. I begrudgingly chose against it.

 

[Gazunta]

Speaking of cheap games

Spoiler

that bombed

Guardians of Ga'Hoole is only $16!

Spoiler

 

[hamchan]

So who here is picking up Marvel vs Capcom 3?

 

[Agyar]

So who here is picking up Marvel vs Capcom 3?

Preordered it for 360 from Ozgameshop last night, alongside Bulletstorm.

Edit: for 360.

 

[Arozay]

So who here is picking up Marvel vs Capcom 3?

PS3, relearning MvC2 as we speak

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

Where's a good place to preorder games from the US that's not Play-Asia?

 

[jambo]

Amazon perhaps...

 

[Kritz]

suddenly, kitten.

 

[Kritz]

OH MY GOD

GETTING MS PACMAN TO SLEEP IN HER FUCKING BOX

It wouldn't get out of my arms, and only after half an hour of letting her bite my fingers and scratching my hand did she get tired enough to accept it.

D'aawwww :3

 

[markot]

Awwwwwwwwww

 

[hamchan]

Coolio, I'll be getting the PS3 version of MvC3 from ozgameshop