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AusPoliGaf |Early 2016 Election| - the government's term has been... Shortened

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darkace

Banned
Brexit is so dumb. The people most in favour of it are the people who are going to be most hurt by it.

There's a reason we have indirect democracy, it's because people aren't capable of understanding everything at the level required to make an informed decision. The downsides to Brexit will be massive and the upsides small and nebulous.
 

Yagharek

Member
Can they have another vote this soon?


;.;

Can you imagine it though - let's assume we get to the point where the ALP have a mandated party line for a vote in favour of SSM.

At that point, the LNP with its conscience vote will still be split 50/50 between the Turnbull supporters and the Abbott-led right wing conservatives. That right wing faction will fight tooth and nail against a parliamentary vote on SSM bills because they know that an ALP plus Greens plus free-to-vote LNP members will get SSM legalised.

On that basis alone the only plausible way for SSM to be legalised is for the ALP to be in gov't and the LNP to have a conscience vote.

2019 is best case scenario.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
None of y'all will notice if I sidle back to Aus, right? I'll pick up the accent again, promise.
 

luchadork

Member
Could someone more knowledgeable about it tell me how the brexit would affect australia?

Economically? Who knows. Theres a lot of drama queens crying about the world being over right now. Some how championing a system that has proven to be completely broken. A system which has resulted in the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. The same young little l liberals who are now on the same side as the big banks and the finance industry. Honestly its hilarious to me to see all my yuppy friends going on about how bad it is. Yet these are the same guys who are vehemently anti TPP and anti big corporations.

How will it affect Australia? Mostly, you'll have to put up with a lot of whining from upper middle class kids about how their British ancestry working visas are now useless.
 

luchadork

Member
Well they are not now useless there is over two years of talking next before anything changes.

exactly. so much hyperbole going around right now. apparently the UK economy is now much worse than it was yesterday. even though nothings going to change for a few years.

you can give me the excuse that the markets factor this in to their valuations. but that just shows how little they know about the future because up until a few hours ago they _didnt_ factor this in.

people will wake up tomorrow, realise the world is still spinning, and the pound will go back up. a few smart people will have made a lot of money from the fear campaign from BOTH sides. ultimately nothing will change for anyone.
 

darkace

Banned
A system which has resulted in the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

Free trade and free movement of goods is the reason why the lower classes purchasing power has stayed relatively static while their wages have declined. The people most hurt by this are the lower-middle classes. Well-paying jobs for the lower-classes aren't coming back, but more expensive goods sure as hell will.

Australia will remain relatively insulated given our lack of exposure to the EU, but we will still feel the impact of a more volatile world market. And the world will be poorer in the long run.
 

luchadork

Member
Free trade and free movement of goods is the reason why the lower classes purchasing power has stayed relatively static while their wages have declined. The people most hurt by this are the lower-middle classes. Well-paying jobs for the lower-classes aren't coming back, but more expensive goods sure as hell will.

there'll still be trade lol
the uk will just have more power to manage their economy. honestly the scare tactics are hilarious.
 

darkace

Banned
there'll still be trade lol
the uk will just have more power to manage their economy. honestly the scare tactics are hilarious.


Yea lol there'll still be trade. There will just be less of it. And people will pay more for goods. And get worse paying jobs. And have less choice in goods. But it's ok we will still have trade lol.

The UK will not be able to better manage their economy than they could in the EU. People will be significantly worse off in the long-run. It's not scare tactics, it's reality.
 

Tommy DJ

Member
there'll still be trade lol
the uk will just have more power to manage their economy. honestly the scare tactics are hilarious.

Darkace literally isn't saying any of that. His point is that, despite wage stagnation, the existing trade agreements with the European Union and relative strength of the GBP provided lower economic groups with relatively affordable goods.

I don't see how he's really incorrect, as an Australian/outsider looking in. The current plunge of the GBP is actually pretty serious if it doesn't recover significantly because what it means is that everyone has currently lost a pretty hefty amount of their savings and purchasing power in general.

That's ignoring the whole trade agreements bullshit that I have no idea about but I would imagine would need to be negotiated/renegotiated.
 

luchadork

Member
Yea lol there'll still be trade. There will just be less of it. And people will pay more for goods. And get worse paying jobs. And have less choice in goods. But it's ok we will still have trade lol.

The UK will not be able to better manage their economy than they could in the EU. People will be significantly worse off in the long-run. It's not scare tactics, it's reality.

Maybe. Maybe not. If its so clear cut whats going to happen in economics and the markets you would've shorted the pound right? Did you? Are you posting from your mega yacht off the coast of Monaco right now?

Maybe the UK will make new trade deals? Maybe they'll be more easily able to control their monetary policy in the future? Maybe they'll be able to introduce their own legislation and regulations to improve their productivity and innovation? Or maybe they will go down the drain with the people of England giving the V-salute to big banks and politicians.

Nobody fucking knows. To me it just sounds like your spouting the same scare tactics that the 'experts' who needed to get tax payer bailouts have been spouting.
 

darkace

Banned
Maybe. Maybe not. If its so clear cut whats going to happen in economics and the markets you would've shorted the pound right? Did you? Are you posting from your mega yacht off the coast of Monaco right now?

I'm not even going to dignify this with a response.

Maybe the UK will make new trade deals?

Let's assume for a second that the UK government has as much pull as the unified EU market when making trade deals. Let's also assume that they have the required technical expertise in their public service for making these deals as of today, or in the foreseeable future. Neither of these are true, but lets assume they are.

First off, when the UK leaves it has no trade treaties with any other country in the world. This means all British goods will incur new or higher tariffs in all trading partner countries, British goods become more expensive when compared to comparable goods produced elsewhere. There is not a magic button here, it typically takes decades to either create new treaties or join an existing one. This will see the purchasing power of the British lower classes plummet.

Furthermore, London is the financial centre of the EU because the UK is both in the EU and is relatively friendly to financial services. Absent the UK having a regulatory treaty with the EU (which they can't without being part of the EU) financial services will be forced to move to the mainland. Even prior the vote there was work underway on this, the first movements will begin to occur in a couple of weeks. Several other sectors are similarly at risk. The financial sector is the single largest employer in the UK, and the London financial industry is the largest in the world. This would be utterly devastating to the British economy.

Thirdly, absent the EU treaties the UK no longer has visa free access to EU states and the same is true of the EU to the UK. There are enormous numbers of British ex-pats who live on the continent and enormous numbers of non-UK EU citizens who live in the UK. Even if the UK & EU manage to push through a very hasty set of reforms allowing those who have lived there for n years to remain we are still talking about pretty significant labour displacement & disruption.

The UK might make new treaties. But the time lapse, lack of economic pull and the severe disruption that is already underway will mean outcomes will be bad for the foreseeable future. I'd say on the worse side of IMF/BoE projections. And there is a serious chance this lack of economic pull would mean their ability to negotiate new treaties would be seriously compromised.

Maybe they'll be more easily able to control their monetary policy in the future?

The Bank of England is currently struggling just above the ZLB, and the likely response to the Brexit is either significant deflation or stagflation, and a recession starting within 18 months. The BoE doesn't have the ammunition to fight any of these in current global conditions.

Maybe they'll be able to introduce their own legislation and regulations to improve their productivity and innovation?

If the UK decides it wants access to the single market it also needs to adopt single market rules, effectively accepting all EU regulation but without having any voice in that regulation. That's assuming France & Germany don't just block UK access to the single market out of spite.

Nobody fucking knows. To me it just sounds like your spouting the same scare tactics that the 'experts' who needed to get tax payer bailouts have been spouting.

Sure thing.
 

Yagharek

Member
UK has never not been independent. Considering the number of nations they enslaved it is in poor taste to try and frame the EU as some overbearing ruler.
 
It's probably safer to invest in Zimbabwean dollars this week.
Surprising thing I learned today: Zimbabwean dollars haven't been the currency since 2009. They officially just use the US dollar, and unofficially various other currencies like the South African rand.
 

SquishLiz

Banned
Economically? Who knows. Theres a lot of drama queens crying about the world being over right now. Some how championing a system that has proven to be completely broken. A system which has resulted in the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. The same young little l liberals who are now on the same side as the big banks and the finance industry. Honestly its hilarious to me to see all my yuppy friends going on about how bad it is. Yet these are the same guys who are vehemently anti TPP and anti big corporations.

How will it affect Australia? Mostly, you'll have to put up with a lot of whining from upper middle class kids about how their British ancestry working visas are now useless.

What, you mean they're no longer going to allow the ancestry visa? Fuck, I was planning on moving in a few years
 

Tommy DJ

Member
Of course its going up, Mark Carney's shoveling £250b to try and restore some confidence. The real question if its a typical dead cat (or pig in this instance) bounce you see whenever this situation occurs.
 

luchadork

Member
people will wake up tomorrow, realise the world is still spinning, and the pound will go back up. a few smart people will have made a lot of money from the fear campaign from BOTH sides. ultimately nothing will change for anyone.

leprechauns-in-alabama.png
 

Tommy DJ

Member
It's not about the short-term impacts.

Which he doesn't really seem to get, judging by his completely lack of engagement with anyone except those talking about their next trip overseas.

With the current economic and geopolitical situation of the United Kingdom prior to the Brexit, you have to be insane to assume the net result is neutral or positive for the United Kingdom in the long term.
 
It's not about the short-term impacts.

I suspect the long term effects are far more of a worry than the money markets betting against brexit and freaking out a little when they got it wrong. Despite the regulation nonsense peddled the efficiencies introduced by the EU in terms of employment regulations, freedom of movement of labour and just common tariffs will cause hurt when they are removed. A recession down the track is likely without massive spending along with increased labour costs hurting the competitiveness of Britain.

Norway, not a part of the EU, still has to abide by many of the same EU regulations to trade with the EU that Britain wants to remove. They may end up with a whole lot of problems and not really be able to remove any of the wrongly perceived issues.

Nicola Sturgeon says that Scotland is preparing a new independence referendum and that it is 'highly likely' that it will be held.

2119c03919b291a9_braveheart_freedom.xxxlarge_0.jpg


Northern Ireland will be even more interesting. Suggestions of leaving Britain or even a referendum for rejoining Ireland. That one will be "fun".
 

luchadork

Member
Which he doesn't really seem to get, judging by his completely lack of engagement with anyone except those talking about their next trip overseas.

hey man, sorry. i replied to your message about carney with the leprechaun shrug meme guy. isnt it a wonderful thing to have an independent central bank to enact monetary policy to help the economy? honestly. who would've expected them to step in and calm the markets? shocker, right!

With the current economic and geopolitical situation of the United Kingdom prior to the Brexit, you have to be insane to assume the net result is neutral or positive for the United Kingdom in the long term.

How can you say that? All I'm saying is that the chicken little hysteria is a fucking joke. You act like you can predict the future for certain. Yet you didnt predict the pound going down just a few hours ago. You guys gotta stop dealing in absolutes. Calm down. The world will still want to do business with England. Will they be worse off? Maybe. Will they be like the rest of the world that does business with the EU without being in the EU and some how get by? Maybe. Will this even be a news story in a month? Maybe. Who the fuck knows. Apparently a lot of people on my social media feeds. Have they studied economics? No. But they know the answers apparently. They're moving to Ireland. They're going to sell all their shares. They're trying to move their money out of the country. They're fucking morons. You could've asked them a question about world finance 2 days ago and theyd have no idea. Today though. Fucking experts.
 
If the referendum isn't legally binding, and the UKIP twats have already rescinded on their two most popular reasons why people wanted Leave (Money and Immigration), then surely it's in the country's best interest to completely disregard it. Right?

Then again, "best interests of the country" hasn't really been the direction for UK, US or Australia lately. Fuck me, I bet if you looked at a Venn diagram for Trump/Leave/Aus Election you'll find Murdochs face sagging in the middle of it.
 

Fredescu

Member
If the referendum isn't legally binding, and the UKIP twats have already rescinded on their two most popular reasons why people wanted Leave (Money and Immigration), then surely it's in the country's best interest to completely disregard it. Right?

Depends what kind of repercussions they can expect from the public. It would cause some pretty major civil unrest you'd think. Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

I think what we need to learn from this is that every tax cut and every welfare/health/education etc cut is part of the white-anting process toward this sort of end. If the public debate is centred around limiting government spending, you can't expect people to be generous towards an influx of displaced people (or towards spending on avoiding environmental calamity for that matter). Without serious public debate on class and wealth distribution, we're all headed down this isolationist road.
 
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