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[Dryk]

I concur. But in my opinion any leader that isn't willing to grant equality without the backing of the electorate is a fucking coward. What the people want and the right thing to do don't always align, and it's a leaders job to see it done.

(Gillard gets props from me on that point for trying to address climate change)

 

[DrSlek]

#faketradie is a real tradie and a real Liberal voter. It's not funny anymore now it's just sad.

A Murdoch paper allegedly spoke to a friend of this fake/real trade. I remain unconvinced.

Also: I hope everyone has been watching playground politics. Goddamn savage.

http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/sammy-js-playground-politics/LE1525V007S00

 

[D.Lo]

Every person who is against marriage equality is being an arsehole. It is advocating for the government to continue discriminate against us. It is inherently being an actual arsehole. Doing it quietly isn't being not-an-arsehole.

So, assuming I am against gay marriage, whatever my reason, you literally just called me an arsehole?

Absolutely no argument or reason is acceptable?

(My actual personal view is that the government should completely leave the legal marriage game. Nobody should have more of less legal status or tax advantages etc based on their relationship status of any sort. An example of where this applies now is an elderly couple having tax/legal advantages over two elderly sisters that live together. Practically identical living situation but different rights for no good reason IMO.)

I've yet to see people called anything other than homophobes (which is accurate), usually in response to calling LGBT people even worse shit.

See above - now you have.

I've yet to see people called anything other than homophobes (which is accurate), usually in response to calling LGBT people even worse shit. To be perfectly honest after having come out to a christian friend and having her turn around and accuse me of victimising her without me even asking her to change her opinions, I'm beyond giving a shit if people are upset at being called homophobes.

This is however absolutely ridiculous and your friend has some insane persecution complex.

 

[Eyemus Lutt]

So I've been out of the loop since Tony Abbott got kicked out and haven't watched any aussie TV or read any newspapers since then.
I just heard there's an election coming up and I have no idea what the main talking and arguing points of today are. Is it still talking about immigration or is something else going on.

 

[Dead Man]

So, assuming I am against gay marriage, whatever my reason, you literally just called me an arsehole?

Absolutely no argument or reason is acceptable?

(My actual personal view is that the government should completely leave the legal marriage game. Nobody should have more of less legal status or tax advantages etc based on their relationship status of any sort. An example of where this applies now is an elderly couple having tax/legal advantages over two elderly sisters that live together. Practically identical living situation but different rights for no good reason IMO.)

See above - now you have.

This is however absolutely ridiculous and your friend has some insane persecution complex.

If you were against gay marriage, I would call you an arsehole. It's like someone being for slavery or something, it is not negotiable to me.

 

[Stumpokapow]

So, assuming I am against gay marriage, whatever my reason, you literally just called me an arsehole?

Absolutely no argument or reason is acceptable?

You're wishing him a loss of dignity and of economic and moral rights, so maybe complaining he's not being polite enough in his response to you might be considered massively selfish grandstanding. Someone calls out to you: "I need your support, I need your help, I am hurting" and your response is "What argument would you accept to allow me to get out of supporting you?". Come on man, look at yourself in the mirror.

(My actual personal view is that the government should completely leave the legal marriage game. Nobody should have more of less legal status or tax advantages etc based on their relationship status of any sort. An example of where this applies now is an elderly couple having tax/legal advantages over two elderly sisters that live together. Practically identical living situation but different rights for no good reason IMO.)

That's cute and not at all original but in the mean time you live in a world where people are allowed to be married and it grants them social, economic, and moral status and rather than rectify an obvious injustice affecting your fellow citizens you're complaining that they should continue suffering until your pipe dream policy is enacted.

Here's a question:
How many countries enacted gay marriage in your lifetime?
How many countries stopped recognizing marriage in your lifetime?

I hope when your friends, straight or gay, get engaged or married and invite you to the wedding you respond with "Marriage is a sham and the government shouldn't recognize it. Why should I go to your wedding?" I suspect they'll think you're an arsehole just like this guy does.

 

[Aarglefarg]

So, assuming I am against gay marriage, whatever my reason, you literally just called me an arsehole?

Absolutely no argument or reason is acceptable?

My actual personal view is that the government should completely leave the legal marriage game. Nobody should have more of less legal status or tax advantages etc based on their relationship status of any sort.

An example of where the above applies is an elderly couple having tax/legal advantages over two elderly sisters that live together. Practically identical living situation but different rights for no good reason IMO.

That would be a form of marriage equality and I used my language carefully. I also wrote about people who advocate for this government discrimination 'being an arsehole': that means on this topic.

However I would consider it being an arsehole if someone votes against marriage equality in this plebiscite because they don't want any government-recognised marriage, since it isn't a vote about not having government-marriage.

See above - now you have.

I was using the term you used to refer to a subset, to show that it isn't about the words you use or how loudly you say it that makes being for government discrimination awful (i.e. being an arsehole as you put it).

 

[bobnowhere]

So I've been out of the loop since Tony Abbott got kicked out and haven't watched any aussie TV or read any newspapers since then.
I just heard there's an election coming up and I have no idea what the main talking and arguing points of today are. Is it still talking about immigration or is something else going on.

Ahhhh...

One side loves Jobs and Growth and hates Health and Education. The other side hates Jobs and Growth and loves Health and Education? It hasn't really evolved beyond that.

 

[Eyemus Lutt]

Ahhhh...

One side loves Jobs and Growth and hates Health and Education. The other side hates Jobs and Growth and loves Health and Education? It hasn't really evolved beyond that.

Which side is which this time? I voted Greens the last few state and federal elections but have no idea now.

 

[Jintor]

i've been listening to people blather on about marriage is between a man and a woman for close to a decade now (in terms of being a politically aware individual) and have yet to come across a convincing argument that doesn't boil down to "it just is okay" or "because bible/quran/whatever".

 

[Aarglefarg]

i've been listening to people blather on about marriage is between a man and a woman for close to a decade now (in terms of being a politically aware individual) and have yet to come across a convincing argument that doesn't boil down to "it just is okay" or "because bible/quran/whatever".

Because John Howard in 2004.

Barnaby Joyce:

Nationals Senate leader Barnaby Joyce told the rally his four daughters would be affected if same-sex marriage was allowed.

"We know that the best protection for those girls is that they get themselves into a secure relationship with a loving husband, and I want that to happen for them.

"I don't want any legislator to take that right away from me."

http://smh.com.au/national/anger-over-rally-to-ridicule-gay-marriage-20110816-1iw1e.html

 

[shanshan310]

I'm not sure that calling someone an asshole is really on the same level as any kind of slur...

i've been listening to people blather on about marriage is between a man and a woman for close to a decade now (in terms of being a politically aware individual) and have yet to come across a convincing argument that doesn't boil down to "it just is okay" or "because bible/quran/whatever".

Lol, here's a good one. I've been talking to my grandmother about it, and she is against it because "gay used to be a beautiful word to describe the innocent joy of childhood and it's been hijacked". Never heard anything like that before. She wouldn't mind if people called it a same sex union or something though, which is good. People get very fussy about wording.

 

[Aarglefarg]

I'm not sure that calling someone an asshole is really on the same level as any kind of slur...


Lol, here's a good one. I've been talking to my grandmother about it, and she is against it because "gay used to be a beautiful word to describe the innocent joy of childhood and it's been hijacked". Never heard anything like that before. She wouldn't mind if people called it a same sex union or something though, which is good. People get very fussy about wording.

Fry and Laurie: https://youtube.com/watch?v=HtaPaQwSQPA

 

[Dryk]

Luckily for your grandma once it stops being an issue gay marriage will just be referred to as marriage

Which side is which this time? I voted Greens the last few state and federal elections but have no idea now.

The Liberals are on teams #jobsandgrowth

 

[Jintor]

Sounds like Bernadi is on the warpath about his right to be a bigot without actually being called a bigot, which is hurtful, and shuts down debate apparently. I kinda see his point on the shutting down debate thing, but I'm beginning to think there is no actual debate because I never see any actual arguments deployed, just "Respect my opinions! Respect them! You have to respect them because they're opinions!"

 

[bobnowhere]

Wafer-thin!

No where near enough to force through the ABCC, though that was never really the point. Amazing to see the numbers still point to Labor on 70 even with their woeful primary.

 

[bomma_man]

Sounds like Bernadi is on the warpath about his right to be a bigot without actually being called a bigot, which is hurtful, and shuts down debate apparently. I kinda see his point on the shutting down debate thing, but I'm beginning to think there is no actual debate because I never see any actual arguments deployed, just "Respect my opinions! Respect them! You have to respect them because they're opinions!"

When the substance of their argument is "free speech!" and "I'm entitled to my opinion!" You know they have nothing.

 

[Yagharek]

That's a very manipulative way to put it.

If someone wants to own machine guns, and wants the law changed to allow them to legally, are they I currently being 'denied legal rights'? No, the move is to change the law. It's not a right until it is the law, which is completely different from being denied a legal right.

If youre going to be pedantic about it, marriage between same sex couples was constitutionally legal prior to ~2004 or whenever John Howard changed it.
Just as owning certain guns was legal prior to April 1996.

The difference is, banning guns saved lives (suicide, accidents, murders). Banning same sex marriage perpetuates bigotry because of how the change was framed - to the exclusion of homosexual people.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Because John Howard in 2004.

Barnaby Joyce:

http://smh.com.au/national/anger-over-rally-to-ridicule-gay-marriage-20110816-1iw1e.html

How does anyone think that argument makes sense ? Allowing same sex couples to marry does precisely 0 to to the ability of opposite sex couples to marry. Its not even a slippery slope because the change required is in the opposite direction.

 

[shanshan310]

Sounds like Bernadi is on the warpath about his right to be a bigot without actually being called a bigot, which is hurtful, and shuts down debate apparently. I kinda see his point on the shutting down debate thing, but I'm beginning to think there is no actual debate because I never see any actual arguments deployed, just "Respect my opinions! Respect them! You have to respect them because they're opinions!"

except they say *beliefs* instead of opinions so that they can cry bigotry as well. If I've learnt anything it's that religious beliefs have basically nothing to do with whether you hate gay people and everything to do with using it as a shield against criticism. Plenty of religious people who are supportive of gay marriage, and non religious people who aren't.

Fry and Laurie: https://youtube.com/watch?v=HtaPaQwSQPA

hahahah actually perfect.

 

[bobnowhere]

Reachtel:

Eden Monaro 2PP: LIB 45 (-7.9 from 2013) ALP 55 (+7.9)
Dobell 2PP: LIB 47 (-2.8 from 2013) ALP 53 (+2.8)
Gilmore 2PP: LIB 47 (-6.8 from 2013) ALP 53 (+6.8)
Lindsay 2PP: LIB 46 (-7.0 from 2013) ALP 54 (+7.0)
Macquarie 2PP: LIB 46 (-8.5 from 2013) ALP 54 (+8.5)
Page 2PP: NAT 46 (-7.1 from 2013) ALP 54 (+7.1)

Polling is starting to get a little weird. Not sure if Labor can win or the influence of minor parties and the assumption that most of their preferences will go to Labor is causing havoc. The funny thing is everyone seems to think the polls are over reporting Labor, maybe they are in the right ballpark.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Reachtel:

Eden Monaro 2PP: LIB 45 (-7.9 from 2013) ALP 55 (+7.9)
Dobell 2PP: LIB 47 (-2.8 from 2013) ALP 53 (+2.8)
Gilmore 2PP: LIB 47 (-6.8 from 2013) ALP 53 (+6.8)
Lindsay 2PP: LIB 46 (-7.0 from 2013) ALP 54 (+7.0)
Macquarie 2PP: LIB 46 (-8.5 from 2013) ALP 54 (+8.5)
Page 2PP: NAT 46 (-7.1 from 2013) ALP 54 (+7.1)

Polling is starting to get a little weird. Not sure if Labor can win or the influence of minor parties and the assumption that most of their preferences will go to Labor is causing havoc. The funny thing is everyone seems to think the polls are over reporting Labor, maybe they are in the right ballpark.

Its normally a bad idea to assume minor party preferences go to Labor because the Greens tend to vacuum up most of the left of center not-Major vote , so the majority of minor party non-Green preferences tend to go right. That's probably still a reasonable assumption in the House (outside maybe NXT and Lazarus who are pretty determined to portray themselves as Centrists and could go either way).

There's too many confounding factors in the Senate to say this time though (the death of GTV will make things much less predeterminable initially since actual population lreferences are more diverse than Group Tickets but also make the last slot few slots less random since you won't get GT snowballing, so parties with initial leads are more likely to keep them) and Labor's decision to oppose Senate Reform will probably win them preferences they otherwise wouldn't get on HTV cards (are there statistics on how often those are followed in the Lower House ? I expect the Senate to less influenced because of the greater number of parties but it should serve as a benchmark).

 

[Yagharek]

except they say *beliefs* instead of opinions so that they can cry bigotry as well. If I've learnt anything it's that religious beliefs have basically nothing to do with whether you hate gay people and everything to do with using it as a shield against criticism. Plenty of religious people who are supportive of gay marriage, and non religious people who aren't.



hahahah actually perfect.

You're mostly right about the religious thing. It's not all, and it's also some non religious people too however the difference is that religious belief has some kind of special protection in society where you're not supposed to question it except on the internet.

A non religious person who doesn't think SSM should happen is just laughed at derisively for not having a coherent reason.

The difference is that religious expression globally has a kind of protected, special role where even the most implausible beliefs are treated with respect they do not deserve. Which is incredibly harmful when combined with a doctrine that diminishes the value of people who are different.

If the plebiscite goes ahead the most vile comments will be coming from the hard right church groups.

 

[Yagharek]

Parakeelia being spoken about by Shorten now. Calling it a washing machine haha.

 

[Jintor]

i respect beliefs until they run into the harm principle. once they start harming respect can get fucked.

 

[bobnowhere]

Once again Pope sums it up beautifully:

 

[Yagharek]

i respect beliefs until they run into the harm principle. once they start harming respect can get fucked.

Ding ding ding.

That's why ScoMo can cry bigot tears all he likes. His side is the one causing harm through abuse and marginalisation.

 

[CrazedProfessional]

I dunno why everyone is predicting a Turnbull Win.

NXT and Ind are munching on Liberal and Nat Seats and The Greens might pick up a seat or two

This leaves a Labor favourable hung parliament much more likely.

 

[bomma_man]

I dunno why everyone is predicting a Turnbull Win.

NXT and Ind are munching on Liberal and Nat Seats and The Greens might pick up a seat or two

This leaves a Labor favourable hung parliament much more likely.

The bookies have crazy short odds for the libs. They normally know what they're talking about.

Plus, as mentioned above, preferences are extrapolated from the last election, where labor got a record flow. It seems unlikely that that will be repeated.

 

[Fredescu]

I dunno why everyone is predicting a Turnbull Win.

I'm not following the latest polling very closely, but my understanding is that the overall swing is pretty meaningless for everywhere other than QLD. This might be outdated info, but my understanding was on current polls they're not going to lose enough seats in QLD to lose government.

 

[CrazedProfessional]

Polling has shown the Libs on 40%PV and Labor on 37/38PV.

Labor is far more likely to form Government at 37-38 than the Libs are at 40.

 

[CrazedProfessional]

There's also gonna be a lot of people who hang up on poll calls who will see a save medicare banner at the polling booth and vote Labor.

 

[bomma_man]

Labor have won Queensland 2pp twice since the war

 

[Yagharek]

There is no way that ALP will win the election. A single term gov't is extremely rare, and the swing won't be sunstantial enough surely.

There will, however, hopefully be an even more hostile senate for Malcolm to deal with and subsequently, as his polling continues to slide, the short term debacle of Prime Minister Morrison will see Shorten in the Lodge by late 2018/early 2019.

 

[bobnowhere]

And thus ended the 3 year comedy journey of the Palmer United Party. Soon to become the United Australia Party with no representation anywhere by/for anyone. Wonder how fast NXT will fall apart?

700k votes to go around though, I suspect a lot were ex-labor voters.

 

[tri_willy]

how the fuck can anyone watch an andrew bolt show

watching an interview he did with mathieson... *shudder

 

[bobnowhere]

how the fuck can anyone watch an andrew bolt show

watching an interview he did with mathieson... *shudder

According to his last ratings, a bit over 1 in 1000 Australians do. It could be you, it could be me, it could be that crazy ranting guy at work blaming labor for the sun going down at the end of the day, it's probably that guy actually.

Last week Bolt was advocating for Shorten to win the election so deep is his hatred for Turnbull and his love for Tones. He thinks in three 3 years Labor can't possibly stuff it up worse than Turnbull and then an ultra-conservative true Liberal will take over and usher in a glorious age of privatisation and bootstraps.

 

[Jintor]

to be fair i see a lot of people in the states saying trump should get in, burn america down, and then they all start over.

they're crazy too probably.

 

[Candescence]

NXT is unlikely to fall apart nearly as soon or in the same way as the Palmer Party, mainly because unlike Palmer, Xenophon has proper parliamentary experience, actually takes this shit seriously, and is a reasonable fellow who is also a decent political operator.

 

[darkace]

I want NXT to succeed. An actual centre/centre-right political party would be good for the country. Awful for the LNP, but good for the country. Xenophon is basically the moderate faction of the LNP with added populism and none of the further right baggage.

If I was an LNP strategist I'd be scared shitless of the long-term prospects of NXT. If they can break their regional SA mold and transform into a proper political party (starting with the name) they have a chance at seats that the LNP have taken for granted for decades. They'd bring electorates into play that no other party has a chance at.

 

[laoni]

I got my postal vote form for Tasmania today, looking through the choices...

I can vote for the Antipedophile Party. As opposed to everyone else, who is obviously pro-pedophile *headshake*

 

[Aarglefarg]

I got my postal vote form for Tasmania today, looking through the choices...

I can vote for the Antipedophile Party. As opposed to everyone else, who is obviously pro-pedophile *headshake*

It might be one of those misleadingly-named parties like Family First, the Health Party or the Liberal Party.

 

[Dryk]

They claim to want Family Court reform and basically nothing else

The Australian Antipaedophile Party is a single issue party. Our mission is to alter the approaches to child protection for children in Australia in accordance with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child through cultural, political, procedural and legislative change. We seek to respond and prevent child sexual abuse through raising public awareness, demanding accountability, education and ensuring effective and just management of child sexual abuse including influencing the legal processes such that justice is not only being done, but also seen to be done, for the safety and well being of all Australian children.

We are not involved in sexual politics where adults are concerned, except where those policies create a danger to children. Sexual relationships of varying forms between consenting adults is legal, and is accepted as normal by the majority of Australian society. It forms no part of our official or unofficial agenda, so when issues of adult with adult homosexuality or LGBTI are brought onto our Facebook page they form an unwelcome distraction. We are concerned solely with children and their protection. There are other forums to bring these issues up, so please take them there.

www.antipaedophileparty.com/index.php/values-and-policies/where-we-stand

 

[Elaugaufein]

In the name of political knowledge: I checked their website.

The answer is Yes and No (which is better than most misleadingly named parties)

Yes: They are a single issue party dedicated to protecting children from paedophiles (with a focus on Family Court decisions that result in children ending up in the custody of their abusers).

No: They also hate Child Protective Services with every fiber of their being and they are equally dedicated to reducing its ability to do anything.

I may be mad but it seems to me that claiming to wish to reduce the abuse that occurs within the family while also reducing the ability of the state to remove said children without ironclad evidence of said abuse may be somewhat difficult.

ETA - *Waves to Dryk* You decided to suffer with me for the pursuit of knowledge. And Half-Ninjaed me.

 

[laoni]

I sat down to read their website with a hot chocolate, their website hurts my eyes @_@ And...yeah, wanting children to stay with their parents unless violence or sexual abuse is involved, but then destroying all the services to protect and extract said children in those cases is...uhm...

I'll have to sit down with the paper proper tomorrow and go through each party. Just Mister Antipedophile jumped out to me when I scanned over it this afternoon XD Right now, my biggest priority is health funding. I was diagnosed with cancer a month ago, and you know shit's fucked when your hospital's appearing on ABC News about how understaffed it is and how dangerous it is for patients.

Fuck the Tasmanian State Government! \o/

 

[bomma_man]

Given the state of child protection in Tasmania I think the second plank of their platform is redundant.

 

[shanshan310]

how the fuck can anyone watch an andrew bolt show

watching an interview he did with mathieson... *shudder

I think that was the first proper "interview" I've seen him do, and I'm kind of confused. He seems to be not only a total ass and a terribly biased interviewer, but also kind of a bad public speaker. His speech patterns are all over the place, and it really seemed like he had no idea what to say most of the time. How did he even end up on TV with such awful presentation skills?

 

[bomma_man]

So brexit is actually happening...

 

[Tommy DJ]

It's a prime example why direct democracy is stupid. Not only do the campaigns devolve into emotive bullshit devoid of any facts but I have no faith the general public can do their civic duty correctly and make educated decisions.

The same sex marriage plebiscite will be the dumbest shit imaginable if it does actually happen.

 

[Fredescu]

Maybe if everything was voted by direct democracy, this wouldn't have happened?

Maybe if everyone had guns this w