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[D.Lo]

You could sort of sneak it in by overhauling council rates. In a lot of ways, rates are a land tax already. Make them payable to the state government so they can pay for health and education. No idea if that would work but at least it doesn't have the "great big new tax" messaging problem.

Yes that's how I would do it. Silly to have council rates and a separate item that you have to pay directly to the State. Also like rates it should be based on location and usage, not property value like stamp duty (though location essentially is a control based on property value). Of course grannies in million dollar houses could in theory be forced out because of council rates increasing because of rising land value in an area so potential PR nightmare there too. Technically that would even out - if super or kids chipping in pays for the rates so gran can stay, they'll get their money back relative to the stamp duty they would pay selling their inheritance anyway.

And local government is writhing is inefficiency and nonsense, so it could be done poorly.

 

[bobnowhere]

You could sort of sneak it in by overhauling council rates. In a lot of ways, rates are a land tax already. Make them payable to the state government so they can pay for health and education. No idea if that would work but at least it doesn't have the "great big new tax" messaging problem.

They are slowly doing that in the ACT, increasing rates to remove stamp duty but that does tend to penalise people who have lived in a house for a long time. The ACT only has two levels of government so it's a bit easier. Plenty of people living in the same house for 50-60 years that now that the house is valuable and probably inner city they would be up for a massive bill they can't afford. Maybe some discount for how long you have lived there?

One possibility would be to link the CGT reduction to occupation, it's removed on empty properties. Obviously you'd need some margin for deceased estates, non-livable properties and rental churn.

 

[Fredescu]

Also like rates it should be based on location and usage, not property value like stamp duty

I thought rates were based on value? To a degree anyway. This year I got a letter from the NSW Valuer General to say that my land value had more than doubled. I'm fairly sure that rates are at least partly based on this, but I don't think I've seen a rates bill since then.

Plenty of people living in the same house for 50-60 years that now that the house is valuable and probably inner city they would be up for a massive bill they can't afford. Maybe some discount for how long you have lived there?

Have you read Henry George? Worth a look for some thoughts on land tax. He would say that the increased traffic past that now inner city land would justify the tax increase, because the best use of inner city land would not be a house with a backyard. If the tax makes it uneconomical to live in that house, it can be sold to be developed into something that can better make use of the increased traffic, like higher density residential, or commercial. I haven't thought too critically about it, but it makes a certain kind of sense. As long as there is sufficient replacement housing to move into after selling your old one.

 

[D.Lo]

I thought rates were based on value? To a degree anyway. This year I got a letter from the NSW Valuer General to say that my land value had more than doubled. I'm fairly sure that rates are at least partly based on this, but I don't think I've seen a rates bill since then.

Yes they are, but land value and usage (eg utilities - a block of flats is not the same as a house because it needs 20 bins), not the sale value of the individual property like stamp duty.

 

[Elaugaufein]

I thought rates were based on value? To a degree anyway. This year I got a letter from the NSW Valuer General to say that my land value had more than doubled. I'm fairly sure that rates are at least partly based on this, but I don't think I've seen a rates bill since then.




Have you read Henry George? Worth a look for some thoughts on land tax. He would say that the increased traffic past that now inner city land would justify the tax increase, because the best use of inner city land would not be a house with a backyard. If the tax makes it uneconomical to live in that house, it can be sold to be developed into something that can better make use of the increased traffic, like higher density residential, or commercial. I haven't thought too critically about it, but it makes a certain kind of sense. As long as there is sufficient replacement housing to move into after selling your old one.

I admit to being skeptical of maximising economic efficiency of housing considering maximum economic efficiency of housing and the physical and mental health of people living there in tend to have a significant gap when it comes to space. Though perhaps it's a worthwhile trade off for the inner city areas. I'm amused that we still seem to be trying to develop arcologies after the word has been around 50 years and the idea a bit longer but we still have no real clue how to do it.


I mean maximum economic efficiency for people tends to be really unpleasant for any but those at the top reaping the games just generally since we can exist long enough to produce most of our economic gain on very little indeed and then replaced with a new person when our efficiency declines. And we could certainly optimise efficiency now by training people directly for some economic role rather than a general education etc.

 

[Fredescu]

I admit to being skeptical of maximising economic efficiency of housing considering maximum economic efficiency of housing and the physical and mental health of people living there in tend to have a significant gap when it comes to space. Though perhaps it's a worthwhile trade off for the inner city areas.

Are you therefore skeptical of cities in general? I don't mean that as snark. I mean, maybe in the digital era we don't need to be as attached to the CBD as we once were. If you think a CBD is a necessity though, the implication is that density of both residential and commercial property in those areas would have to increase with the population. Someone that has been living in a house for 60 years and finds them much closer to the CBD than before would surely see some of their quality of life diminish over that time too, with traffic and crime and such.

I mean maximum economic efficiency for people tends to be really unpleasant for any but those at the top reaping the games just generally since we can exist long enough to produce most of our economic gain on very little indeed and then replaced with a new person when our efficiency declines. And we could certainly optimise efficiency now by training people directly for some economic role rather than a general education etc.

I share your distaste for "efficiency" as if it was an inherent good, but in this case I'm not talking about economic efficiency for people and their labour, just economic efficiency for land use.

 

[D.Lo]

It's Green councils supporting NIMBYs preventing economic efficiency of land use in inner cities.

Having three levels of Government in this tiny population country is really the main cause of our infrastructure woes. Almost ANY consistent philosophy would be better than the unequal patchwork of vested interests we have.

 

[Quasar]

Having three levels of Government in this tiny population country is really the main cause of our infrastructure woes. Almost ANY consistent philosophy would be better than the unequal patchwork of vested interests we have.

I don't disagree. Though I'd be doing away with the states, not councils. So sick to death of everyone in NSW ignored except Sydney.

 

[danm999]

I would be all for eliminating state governments. I have lived most of my life in NSW though so possibly I'm horribly jaded about it.

But I don't think 23ish million people need that many levels of government.

 

[D.Lo]

I would be all for eliminating state governments. I have lived most of my life in NSW though so possibly I'm horribly jaded about it.

But I don't think 23ish million people need that many levels of government.

if we're daydreaming, Federation needs a revision too. States, whatever they are, should not have equal federal Senate representation despite vastly different population sizes.

Councils could be consolidated into prefectures, combining the powers and delivery roles of states and councils, and federal can re-absorb some state issues like power and education.

 

[legend166]

If Stamp Duty goes and Land Tax is brought in, what happens to that $20k I just paid in Stamp Duty two months ago? I ain't up for getting double taxed.

 

[D.Lo]

If Stamp Duty goes and Land Tax is brought in, what happens to that $20k I just paid in Stamp Duty two months ago? I ain't up for getting double taxed.

You get a ten yeah exemption or something like that.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Are you therefore skeptical of cities in general? I don't mean that as snark. I mean, maybe in the digital era we don't need to be as attached to the CBD as we once were. If you think a CBD is a necessity though, the implication is that density of both residential and commercial property in those areas would have to increase with the population. Someone that has been living in a house for 60 years and finds them much closer to the CBD than before would surely see some of their quality of life diminish over that time too, with traffic and crime and such.

Not really ? I mean if we could get the same kind of efficiency and convenience without the rat race effect I think it'd be a net good but thats so utopian I doubt anyone seriously disagrees. And yeah leaving the CBD to mostly Commerce with some relatively dense residential towers is probably necessary there, so it may be worth the tradeoff.

Yeah, agreed but is it enough net loss that the potential loss of space of downsizing and extra distance from moving out is net better ? I guess in the case of the elderly it might be given the increased risks in higher density and traffic areas.

I have a weird relationship with space since pretty much everywhere I've lived is enormous by most reckonings (a farm, large houses, the owners wing of a hotel, etc). Tiny apartments make me feel very cramped.

 

[legend166]

Surely making multiple CBDs is a better idea than doubling down on the one?

That's the problem with Sydney. We actually have a geography that would work with multiple CBDs on the M4 corridor (current CBD, Paramatta, Penrith), and the government keeps talking about it, but no one does anything about it.

 

[hirokazu]

Surely making multiple CBDs is a better idea than doubling down on the one?

That's the problem with Sydney. We actually have a geography that would work with multiple CBDs on the M4 corridor (current CBD, Paramatta, Penrith), and the government keeps talking about it, but no one does anything about it.

I think the government calls them regional centres but you really have to convince businesses already in the city that it's worth relocating. Parramatta is really the only one recognised as another CBD.

 

[Elaugaufein]

I think the government calls them regional centres but you really have to convince businesses already in the city that it's worth relocating. Parramatta is really the only one recognised as another CBD.

That and part of the reason to be in the CBD is ease of access to other businesses which is good for businesses that require cooperation and customer flow since it allows people to bundle stuff together and deal with it at once. Splitting businesses over multiple CBDs hinders all of them unless they are all big enough to sustain the critical mass of businesses to be worthwhile.

 

[D.Lo]

That and part of the reason to be in the CBD is ease of access to other businesses which is good for businesses that require cooperation and customer flow since it allows people to bundle stuff together and deal with it at once. Splitting businesses over multiple CBDs hinders all of them unless they are all big enough to sustain the critical mass of businesses to be worthwhile.

Just like having two airports. You need the connections.

Sydney would be fine if someone over the last 30 years had had some vision and built more trains and subways instead of fucking roads. YOU CAN'T DRIVE TO WORK IN THE CBD BAIRD.

 

[hirokazu]

Just like having two airports. You need the connections.

Sydney would be fine if someone over the last 30 years had had some vision and built more trains and subways instead of fucking roads. YOU CAN'T DRIVE TO WORK IN THE CBD BAIRD.

The government just got a $2.6b windfall by privating the land title register for 35 years despite it being opposed by pretty much everyone. Let's hope all of that goes into public transport infrastructure. It probably won't.

 

[legend166]

That and part of the reason to be in the CBD is ease of access to other businesses which is good for businesses that require cooperation and customer flow since it allows people to bundle stuff together and deal with it at once. Splitting businesses over multiple CBDs hinders all of them unless they are all big enough to sustain the critical mass of businesses to be worthwhile.

Surely that's not as much of an issue with technology these days? I'm sitting in the Blue Mountains, talking to colleagues in the CBD, working with people in Kogarah sending emails to people in the US and Spain.

 

[D.Lo]

The government just got a $2.6b windfall by privating the land title register for 35 years despite it being opposed by pretty much everyone. Let's hope all of that goes into public transport infrastructure. It probably won't.

Will probably go to Liberal MP affiliated construction firms to make the M33 tollway between Enmore and Newtown.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Surely that's not as much of an issue with technology these days? I'm sitting in the Blue Mountains, talking to colleagues in the CBD, working with people in Kogarah sending emails to people in the US and Spain.

Less so for knowledge / information​ / data based businesses yeah but there's still other industries which require physicality.

 

[danm999]

The government just got a $2.6b windfall by privating the land title register for 35 years despite it being opposed by pretty much everyone. Let's hope all of that goes into public transport infrastructure. It probably won't.

You might have missed this one from a few days back.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/f6-planne...ild-roads-documents-show-20170407-gvgbon.html

Will probably go to Liberal MP affiliated construction firms to make the M33 tollway between Enmore and Newtown.

Pave over those evil centres of leftist dissidence.

 

[bobnowhere]

Lucy Gichuhi was offically elected today to take Bob Days place. There may still be some issues about her citizenship as when she became an Australian Citizen in 2001 due to Kenya not allowing dual citizens she automatically lost her Kenyan citizenship and therefore she never officially renounced her Kenyan Citizenship. I suspect it would be pretty cynical to pursue her on it as I would imagine losing her Kenyan citizenship would qualify as "reasonable steps" to renounce her citizenship of a foreign power.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Lucy Gichuhi was offically elected today to take Bob Days place. There may still be some issues about her citizenship as when she became an Australian Citizen in 2001 due to Kenya not allowing dual citizens she automatically lost her Kenyan citizenship and therefore she never officially renounced her Kenyan Citizenship. I suspect it would be pretty cynical to pursue her on it as I would imagine losing her Kenyan citizenship would qualify as "reasonable steps" to renounce her citizenship of a foreign power.

There is no way the Court would hold that taking an action that strips you of citizenship doesn't count as renouncing Citizenship. Partly because it'd be semantic trickery beyond even the acceptance of the legal profession but mostly because it's incompatible with the way things worked before dual citizenship became relatively accepted and becoming a citizen of another country was how you'd lose the prior citizenship, it would almost certainly retroactively invalidate a vast swathe of past politicians as a result and the court isn't going to overturn that sort of precedent without a serious reason too.

 

[bobnowhere]

Tony Abbott - So Empty Without Me (Guess Who's Back)

 

[Candescence]

Meanwhile...

Lib MP Warren Entsch basically told Tony to fuck off and quit parliament, because he's being a wrecker and emulating Rudd.

Also, Abbot's colleagues called him out on his claims that he didn't know Safe Schools was being rolled out on his watch, turns out he knew and didn't give a shit until it became conservative red meat.

The Wind Farm Commission only got 90 complaints over the course of the whole year, and most of them were basically bunk. So the government wasted nearly a million on a worthless commission.

A vast majority of Australians think the minimum wage is too low, and at least a third think it should be "much higher" than it is now. Contrast the US, where pushing the minimum wage above $10 is still some ways away across the entire country.

 

[danm999]

Tony Abbott - So Empty Without Me (Guess Who's Back)

Holy shit.

 

[Quasar]

A vast majority of Australians think the minimum wage is too low, and at least a third think it should be "much higher" than it is now. Contrast the US, where pushing the minimum wage above $10 is still some ways away across the entire country.

Well given housing and cost of living costs its not that a surprise.

 

[bobnowhere]

Turnbull's banning 457 visas. Not really sure where he's going with this, is he cosying up to ONP voters? Is it a genuine attempt to actually train Australian's for the jobs going? Is he just going to rename them 458 visas and let Gina bring in people from Asia and still pay them a pittance? Is he just hoping people don't realise there is a whole heap of other visa types that are unaffected by this change like education visas where they study some junk certificate at a scam school and work full time for <$10/hour at the local 7/11?

Or is it just a desperate PM trying to stay PM for a little bit longer?

Edit: Nope it's just a pretty naked political attack on Shorten.

Warren Entsch is good people and Xenophon needs a good slap over his wind farm nonsense.

 

[danm999]

So it looks like the big two changes to 457s (or whatever they'll call the replacement) are removing about 200 jobs from the list of eligible occupations and are putting in a higher standard for English language. Existing holders are grandfathered. Feels like a facelift.

 

[hirokazu]

Turnbull's banning 457 visas.

This is kinda bad. The training industry in Australia is a joke, there's just gonna be business that need employees with nobody in skilled or willing to take the job.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

This is kinda bad. The training industry in Australia is a joke, there's just gonna be business that need employees with nobody in skilled or willing to take the job.

Even in good times, businesses aren't interested in training staff. The incentives just aren't there.

 

[mjontrix]

Tony Abbott - So Empty Without Me (Guess Who's Back)

Sheer brilliant!

Even in good times, businesses aren't interested in training staff. The incentives just aren't there.

Simply make a large minimum salary requirement for any overseas worker (140K+ excluding the super percentage super). And add a federal quota for all oversea visas (e.g. 50K for all visas excluding tourist). Have visas issues once a year with an auction process from offers - highest paying gets first bids. Add a percentage 'auction fee' (20% of the proposed salary/fee depending on the visa) and a guaranteed allotment of the quota so the government can make some money as well as ensure companies that actually need a specialist can get them.

They'll be training people up very quickly.

 

[bobnowhere]

Without an increase in training via tafe or otherwise, it's a pretty hollow measure. Nothing significant is being done about local labour force testing and it was the Coalition that removed the need for it in the first place in Howard's years.

List of jobs no longer eligible.

Bad luck for Goat Farmers, Actors, Archeologists, Stonemasons, Shearers, Zookeepers and the like. No IT people on that list, what a shock.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Without an increase in training via tafe or otherwise, it's a pretty hollow measure. Nothing significant is being done about local labour force testing and it was the Coalition that removed the need for it in the first place in Howard's years.

List of jobs no longer eligible.

Bad luck for Goat Farmers, Actors, Archeologists, Stonemasons, Shearers, Zookeepers and the like. No IT people on that list, what a shock.

There's a bunch of IT jobs there actually (several Officer positions, many of the Engineering and Science ones are effectively IT to these days, and ICT support is specifically listed). Though the bog standard (Senior) Programmer and Systems/Network Administrators aren't though I don't know if there were 457able in the first place. No Software Architect withers.

 

[Quasar]

http://www.smh.com.au/business/reta...ralian-shoppers-over-gst-20170417-gvmkoe.html

eBay says it will likely block Australian shoppers from buying goods from overseas if the government pushes ahead with plans to apply GST on all goods sold through the online marketplace.

Goods bought from overseas sellers and imported to Australia worth less than $1000 are currently GST exempt, but Treasurer Scott Morrison wants to apply the 10 per cent tax to all sales from July 1 this year.

"Regrettably, the Government's legislation may force eBay to prevent Australians from buying from foreign sellers," eBay Australia and New Zealand vice president Jooman Park wrote in a submission to a senate inquiry into the so-called "Amazon Tax".

"This appears to be the most likely outcome at present.

I really wonder how much of this we'll see. Companies just refusing to do business because its too much hassle, especially platforms like ebay.

 

[bobnowhere]

There's a bunch of IT jobs there actually (several Officer positions, many of the Engineering and Science ones are effectively IT to these days, and ICT support is specifically listed). Though the bog standard (Senior) Programmer and Systems/Network Administrators aren't though I don't know if there were 457able in the first place. No Software Architect withers.

There's a few engineering draftspeople which I suspect is people with the equivalent of 2/2.5 year certificates, not a degree. Clinical Coder could be anything and could easily fall under another job description.

After Medical and Science research, entry level IT is the 3rd most common 457 visa job and not much seems to be done about that.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

The removal of the engineering positions is all in industries that are a) not big in Australia to begin with or b) have experienced a massive drop off of late.

An electronics engineer would be spending a lot of time using VHDL and printing circuits etc and that industry is tiny in this country. We just don't manufacture anything in that space, so there's no demand for the corresponding design.

Petroleum engineers being on the list might have made sense five or six years ago, but today?

The list is window dressing.

 

[bobnowhere]

The removal of the engineering positions is all in industries that are a) not big in Australia to begin with or b) have experienced a massive drop off of late.

An electronics engineer would be spending a lot of time using VHDL and printing circuits etc and that industry is tiny in this country. We just don't manufacture anything in that space, so there's no demand for the corresponding design.

Petroleum engineers being on the list might have made sense five or six years ago, but today?

The list is window dressing.

I used to have to do my own RF circuit design myself, no one was employing someone to do it for me! I suspect they are just trimming the list of dead/superseded occupations.

Look at something like Archeologist, apart from maybe a handful in government conservation positions the majority would be in academia and therefore under the research/teaching category. The performing stuff is interesting as well, they are clearly not going to shut down Fox Studios so there is going to be exceptions.

 

[hirokazu]

The list is window dressing.

Had a skim through the list, and that's what it seems. There's a lot of jobs that seem like hardly anyone would've applied for 457 visas for in the first place.

 

[Elaugaufein]

There's a few engineering draftspeople which I suspect is people with the equivalent of 2/2.5 year certificates, not a degree. Clinical Coder could be anything and could easily fall under another job description.

After Medical and Science research, entry level IT is the 3rd most common 457 visa job and not much seems to be done about that.

I do comp sci research and a lot of science research is IT work these days too (medicine too) , simulation, optimisation, statistical analysis and computerised solvers are huge parts of almost Physical science research these days. There's a lot of 'free' IT work done for companies by postgrads and even post docs.

I wonder if we do have an IT shortage. I mean a lot of the students are clearly foreign but nowhere near all (and quiet a few stay permanently). I suspect part of it is the brain drain effect, there's very little corporate R&D done and academic funding is tight and our wages are stagnant while inflation occurs so moving probably looks good.

ETA - It probably doesn't help that IT is one of those fields where you see 3 years experience with an extremely specific skillset on many fairly entry level jobs which makes Labor Market testing something of a joke.

 

[danm999]

So Labor is claiming only 8% of people who are on 457 visas are in jobs to be excluded. If true I'll downgrade my comments about this being a facelift to it being a light exfoliation.

 

[bobnowhere]

So Labor is claiming only 8% of people who are on 457 visas are in jobs to be excluded. If true I'll downgrade my comments about this being a facelift to it being a light exfoliation.

The Beetoota Advocate was right like always:

Turnbull solves 457 visa problem by turning it off and on again

If you look a little closer at the "new tough" labour market test, not much has changed, regional areas are still exempt and other agreements such as free-trade deals override it. So no worker from China will be subject to it.

 

[AdventureRacing]

Geez this all sounds like bullshit from Turnbull. Created half a million jobs? Please. This will have a minor impact. This just feels like the liberals trying to cash in on the wave of racism and fear mongeringg buoying right wing parties around the world.

I don't even mind the changes necessarily it's the rhetoric that bothers me.

 

[danm999]

Geez this all sounds like bullshit from Turnbull. Created half a million jobs? Please. This will have a minor impact. This just feels like the liberals trying to cash in on the wave of racism and fear mongeringg buoying right wing parties around the world.

I don't even mind the changes necessarily it's the rhetoric that bothers me.

It's total lipstick on a pig territory it seems.

Further, of the 216 jobs being slashed from the eligible occupations list, 18 of those being cut haven't been used once in the past decade. Those jobs include turf growers, deer farmers, homeopaths and detectives.

Another 46 occupations on the list haven't been granted a visa once in the past year, including antique dealers, futures traders, park rangers, blacksmiths, gunsmiths, saw makers and repairers, sail makers, shoe makers, funeral directors and golfers.

Good news if you're an aspiring Aussie gumshoe or faberge egg dealer though I suppose.

 

[Elaugaufein]

It's total lipstick on a pig territory it seems.





Good news if you're an aspiring Aussie gumshoe or faberge egg dealer though I suppose.

If I get a consciencectomy I could be a homeopath.

 

[danm999]

If I get a consciencectomy I could be a homeopath.

Just put a lock of hair of the least moral person you know in an alcoholic solution three times and ingest.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Just put a lock of hair of the least moral person you know in an alcoholic solution three times and ingest.

I thought I needed to put a snip of it in distilled water, then dilute it until statistically speaking no molecules of hair remained.

 

[bobnowhere]

The ALP are going to challenge or at least look further into Lucy Gichuhi's eligibility. They seem to think that as the rule has since changed after Lucy became an Australian citizen to allow for dual Kenyan citizens she may have "reaquired" Kenya citizenship. A pretty long bow and an appeal was chucked out of the HC today.

Also, The Palmer United Party is dead, completely dead, has no arms left.

I thought I needed to put a snip of it in distilled water, then dilute it until statistically speaking no molecules of hair remained.

Obligatory.

 

[AdventureRacing]

I'm curious why they're pushing so hard on this issue because frankly it makes the ALP look really bad.