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AusPoliGAF |OT| Boats? What Boats?

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F

Fredescu

Member
D.Lo said:
Well, many of them voted for governments and policies that created the current situation.
Click to expand...

God that's such a tenuous link to blaming a generation. I really think framing this as generation v generation rather than rich v poor and the widening gap between them does the entire debate a disservice.
 
D

Dryk

Member
Efficiency dividends really rub me the wrong way. I'm sure there is always waste to be cut, but the typical management attitude of "This needs to be done, therefore it can be done, make it happen" bugs me.
 
C

ConstructMe

Banned
D.Lo said:
Well, many of them voted for governments and policies that created the current situation.

Anyone who ever voted for Howard gets my scorn, and it's his government above any others that is responsible. Yes Keating started it, but it was at that point part of kickstarting a declining economy. Howard just rode his 'battlers' while pushing wealth to the upper-class. They were side beneficiaries, but beneficiaries nonetheless, of the taking of the future for the sake of the present (see also: selling Telstra, selling Sydney Airport, building no infrastructure for a decade, wasting a mining boom, lowering income taxes, middle class welfare etc).
Click to expand...

so why did he keep killing it in elections?
 
F

Fredescu

Member
He didn't kill it in his first election as PM, he was very nearly a one termer. Got in by the skin of his teeth.

Second election he won on the back of the Tampa Affair, which proved to politicians that being cunts to asylum seekers is a good way to appear to be a "strong leader".

Third he did kill it in, this was post 9/11 fear and Howards desperation to join the US in any action, ill advised or otherwise.

After that he had senate control he was able to show his true ideological colours and subsequently got thoroughly smashed in his fourth.

You'd think the current administration would have learnt from that defeat that basing policy on their more extremist elements was ill advised, but apparently not and now it's 55/45.
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
ConstructMe said:
so why did he keep killing it in elections?
Click to expand...
He didn't.
He won huge in 96 because of a late reaction to the recession. Keating delayed the inevitable one election, no party wins after a recession. Labor was booted, he didn't win based on anything except not being Labor.
He lost by popular vote in 98 and scraped in with some sandbagging strategies in victoria.
In 2001 he was behind and invented a boat people crisis and lied about children overboard to capitalise on the fear of 9/11.
In 2004 he came up with the big one for baby boomers - interest rates. Despite the highest interest rates having come from his previous bout in government...

If you ever voted for Howard after 1996 you have my scorn. What a wasted decade, in 11 years he only achieved GST (yay...), gun control (actually good), East timor (arguable), boat people policies (disgusting), and Workchoices (lol). Oh and built no infrastructure, wasted a mining boom, and sold off many major government asserts.
 
E

Elaugaufein

Member
Dryk said:
Efficiency dividends really rub me the wrong way. I'm sure there is always waste to be cut, but the typical management attitude of "This needs to be done, therefore it can be done, make it happen" bugs me.
Click to expand...

Efficiency dividends are supposed to be an incentive to adopt more efficient practices and technologies since public assets are not motivated by increased profit.

Unlike profit motives though efficiency dividends are expected to happen even if no such technology jump occurred (sometimes best practices are static for years and then quickly make big jumps) and don't really factor in that sometimes these gains require large upfront costs but yield "profit" over time (so you end up using that money to pay efficiency dividends now instead of increasing future efficiency).

Its one of those things where the intent is good but automatic application is not necessarily optimal.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Why isn't the government being held to account on the China free trade deal?
Greg Jericho said:
The deal has been greeted with great acclamation from most of the media. It’s a game changer, it’s a “fortune cookie”, it’s worth $18bn!

This last figure is one of the more interesting ones to come out in the reporting. As Lenore Taylor noted in her report, the $18bn figure is based on a feasibility study done in 2005 and is concerned with a theoretical agreement rather than the one agreed to this week.
...
The 2005 report did not suggest $18bn extra in export revenue – it suggested the extra growth from a China-Australia free trade agreement could “boost Australia’s and China’s real GDP in the order of US$18bn”.

It’s odd as well that the $18bn amount is never reported as being in US dollars, let alone 2005 US dollars when US$1 was A$0.75 rather than the A$0.87 it is now. The modelling actually put the benefits at A$24.4bn.

But what does this mean? Firstly, it is over a 10-year period (from 2005-15 in the case of the modelling) and it is the “net present value” – US$18bn (or A$24.4bn) in 2005 dollars.

It is important to note that this does not mean they thought Australia’s GDP would be $18bn larger by 2015. It means that over 10 years there would be a cumulative addition of $18bn of extra growth in 2005 money terms.

The modelling, which was used in the feasibility study, estimates that had a free-trade agreement been signed in 2005 by 2015, our GDP would have been about $3bn more than it would have otherwise been.

Is that much? Well it’s about 0.37% bigger. So no. It’s not much at all.

The feasibility study – in the very sentence that the US$18bn figure is mentioned – states “the annual average real GDP growth rate for both countries could increase by around 0.04% over the period 2005-15”.

Yep, 0.04% a year. Or, as the economist Tom Westland rather archly describes it, “a rounding error”.

And bear in mind that growth figure is based on a deal that includes sugar and rice and involves immediate dropping of tariffs – something that is not in the present agreement.

But never fear, the reporting of the game-changing boom will go forth spouting the $18bn figure.
Click to expand...

Also:

Julie Bishop rebukes Barack Obama over Great Barrier Reef
Guardian said:
Australia’s foreign minister Julie Bishop has publicly rebuked the US president Barack Obama for drawing attention to the vulnerability of the Great Barrier Reef because of climate change, and failing to acknowledge Australia’s remedial action.

In an interview with the ABC’s 7.30 Report from New York on Thursday night, Bishop said a recent speech by the American president in Brisbane “overlooked” Australian actions in preserving the reef.

She said there was an issue with the president’s remarks.

“We are demonstrating world’s best practice in working with the World Heritage Committee to ensure that the Great Barrier Reef is preserved for generations to come,” Bishop said on Thursday night.

“I think that president Obama might have overlooked that aspect of our commitment to conserving the Great Barrier Reef.”
Click to expand...
Carbon emissions could turn the world's oceans into warm acid, but don't worry, we can isolate and protect over 340000 square kilometres from this effect using world's best practice. The same goes for protecting forests from desertification and fire. In fact, I don't see why anyone is concerned about climate change at all, because we can just pay companies and unemployed youths to remedy every impact it will have.
 
C

ConstructMe

Banned
Dead Man said:
Do you want us to pry what you think is the answer out via a series of incredibly obvious questions? Or would you grant us the favour of explaining what you think the one and true answer is?
Click to expand...

Jail time? these people responsible dont care about fines as long as they are personally still being payed.
 
D

Dead Man

Member
ConstructMe said:
Jail time? these people responsible dont care about fines as long as they are personally still being payed.
Click to expand...

Finding an individual responsible in criminal terms can be very hard when it comes to thing like this. Making the company as a whole responsible is sometimes necessary. The only way of doing that is fines. The purpose is also one of deterrent so ALL those in management and supervisory positions know their employment may be gone if the company fucks up so they are invested in safe work practises.
 
M

Mr. Tone

Member
whitepeople800w.jpg
 
C

ConstructMe

Banned
Re that comic, so aboriginals want money from us, yet want to be left alone to live in the bush?

Plus whatd they do before the whites came out here when they had 0 money at all? They lived fine, so why do they want money now if there living in the bush?

Basically they should decide if they want to be left alone in the bush or get support money not both....i dont see why should be guilted most of the fucked up shit happened decades before i was born.
 
A

Arksy

Member
The comic is specifically talking about the double standard between people raging about welfare towards indigenous people all the while refusing to give up the middle class welfare entitlements that benefit them directly.
 
J

Jintor

Member
Actually it's kind of funny to complain about being guilted into some position because of shit that happened before you were born when for Aboriginal people (or speaking more generally disadvantaged minority groups) they're forced into a position because of shit that happened long before they were born
 
D.Lo

D.Lo

Member
Arksy said:
The comic is specifically talking about the double standard between people raging about welfare towards indigenous people all the while refusing to give up the middle class welfare entitlements that benefit them directly.
Click to expand...
Yep.

I think we shouldn't be funding opera, or unsustainable rural communities ether. For my job I've been to some places with 50%+ unemployment, and maybe 90% welfare (including farm subsidies etc). These towns should be shut down, I am paying for people's preference to work and stay in some place just because their daddy did. Nobody subsidises me because I choose to live in the inner-city, even though it's not the cheapest, I simply pay for it myself.

However funding indig communities like the comic is talking about should be seen as reparations really.
 
M

magenta

Member
You can't forcefully shut down a town. Not that it matters because they are slowly dying anyway, the young are moving to larger centers due to greater opportunities.
 
C

ConstructMe

Banned
Arksy said:
We kind of owe it to them after we've fucked them over so damn hard.
Click to expand...

This is my point, you say "we", but you mean "preceding governments", my family was in the uk back then, and i wasnt even alive (for the stolen generation stuff let alone 200 yrs ago), so i and we (as in my predecessors) have done nothing of the sort.

When does it end? Do you wait til 2020 and say "ok thats 50 years i think weve payed you back damages now" or 500 years from now are we still going to be paying these people just because there long lost decendants were fucked over (again- no relation to me as above).
 
T

Tim the Wiz

Banned
ConstructMe said:
This is my point, you say "we", but you mean "preceding governments", my family was in the uk back then, and i wasnt even alive (for the stolen generation stuff let alone 200 yrs ago), so i and we (as in my predecessors) have done nothing of the sort.

When does it end? Do you wait til 2020 and say "ok thats 50 years i think weve payed you back damages now" or 500 years from now are we still going to be paying these people just because there long lost decendants were fucked over (again- no relation to me as above).
Click to expand...

You benefit from the legacy of preceding governments.
 
A

Arksy

Member
ConstructMe said:
This is my point, you say "we", but you mean "preceding governments", my family was in the uk back then, and i wasnt even alive (for the stolen generation stuff let alone 200 yrs ago), so i and we (as in my predecessors) have done nothing of the sort.

When does it end? Do you wait til 2020 and say "ok thats 50 years i think weve payed you back damages now" or 500 years from now are we still going to be paying these people just because there long lost decendants were fucked over (again- no relation to me as above).
Click to expand...

I was born overseas, I came to Australia when I was two months old. I came from a country that has no real historic links to Australia.

That's irrelevant. I call myself Australian, I can not call myself anything else. I take on the customs, the traditions and achievements of this identity. I'm proud to be Australian, we voted for our own constitution, we fought to defend liberty and democracy against tyranny in Europe. We have somehow managed to create a bastion of freedom, prosperity and equality in a harsh land. We are blessed with great weather, people and have an amazing culture of exploration and an appreciation of the good things in life.

Australia isn't perfect however, and the people that made this country what it is have done some terrible things. If I am to claim as my own, the great parts about this country then I have to also own and take responsibility for the terrible things we've done as well. Annihilation of the indigenous people, treating refugees with scorn. I, nor anyone in my family has ever done anything ill towards indigenous people, but that doesn't absolve me of anything.

There's no one who's ever stepped foot in Australia over the last hundred years, who hasn't benefited from the loss of their lands, the subjugation and forced migration out of their ancestral lands and the displacement that occurred thereafter.

To answer your question; for how long do we owe them? Simple. For as long as it takes for someone who is born an indigenous Australian not to be horribly disadvantaged by that simple fact.
 
J

jgminto

Member
ConstructMe said:
This is my point, you say "we", but you mean "preceding governments", my family was in the uk back then, and i wasnt even alive (for the stolen generation stuff let alone 200 yrs ago), so i and we (as in my predecessors) have done nothing of the sort.

When does it end? Do you wait til 2020 and say "ok thats 50 years i think weve payed you back damages now" or 500 years from now are we still going to be paying these people just because there long lost decendants were fucked over (again- no relation to me as above).
Click to expand...

You don't get to hand wave away grave events in Australian history that still have current ramifications. Our society as a whole must work to improve the poor conditions that we created. It doesn't matter if your direct blood line didn't cause any of this or that you don't give a shit about the well being of Aboriginal communities, it's something that we have to do as a society that still has a massive imbalance against Aboriginal people.
 
C

ConstructMe

Banned
Spineker said:
Basic Social Studies, serving Australia well, clearly.

Don't mind me, just a stoner twat from the mother country who has taken an odd interest in your domestic politics since the G20 >.>
Click to expand...

Rules of this thread?
1. Dont slag off labour or greens.
2. Dont present any viewpoint opposing those popular in this thread.

jk lol
 
D

Dryk

Member
D

Dead Man

Member
ConstructMe said:
Rules of this thread?
1. Dont slag off labour or greens.
2. Dont present any viewpoint opposing those popular in this thread.

jk lol
Click to expand...

It's spelled LABOR, how dare you corrupt their holy name? And seriously mate, if you think Labor is a sacred cow in this thread you haven't been paying attention.
 
C

ConstructMe

Banned
Dead Man said:
It's spelled LABOR, how dare you corrupt their holy name? And seriously mate, if you think Labor is a sacred cow in this thread you haven't been paying attention.
Click to expand...

Yeah but labor is a bit like that drunken uncle to you guys - deep down you love them, but you just wish they'd stop embarrassing themselves.
 
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