ConstructMe
Banned
The whole point of this is they are trying to show how big their dick is after we spied on them/our boat people policies, as if they dont have stuff ready to attack us in the case we deserve it.
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AusPoliGAF |OT| Boats? What Boats?
- Thread starter Bernbaum
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The whole point of this is they are trying to show how big their dick is after we spied on them/our boat people policies, as if they dont have stuff ready to attack us in the case we deserve it.
ConstructMe
Banned
Especially not from us druggos ammirite
Sometimes the social justice stuff gets people a bit fired up, just need to settle him down and remind him to keep it civil, we want to promote discourse not rude outbursts.
ConstructMe
Banned
I can't quite tell if this is a not so elaborate troll now.
No definately not. Im just annoyed at how this saga is being treated.
No idea why you guys care, unless your like drugs.
Think how many more lives these drugs end or fuck up, these guys knew what was coming.
Focus your sadness on the nepal thing, a real tragedy. Not two drug dealing thugs.
Only thing they should regret is taking so long to do it. Imagine the outrage if they tried to fuck with our legal process.
If we keep slagging off indonesia if i were them id bomb the fuck out of us , thats really showing their weight, remember they could flatten us if they felt like it.
Construct Me? Looks like someone lost the instructions. What a shit post.
Sometimes the social justice stuff gets people a bit fired up, just need to settle him down and remind him to keep it civil, we want to promote discourse not rude outbursts.
Your first post in this convo thread you essentially called anyone who cared druggos, which as we all know, is the steps one takes when they want to engage in genuine civil discourse
ConstructMe
Banned
Construct Me? Looks like someone lost the instructions. What a shit post.
Please provide a genuine rebuttal, cheers.
Please provide a genuine rebuttal, cheers.
Rebuttal to what? You don't have a coherent argument to begin with.
ConstructMe
Banned
Rebuttal to what? You don't have a coherent argument to begin with.
The notion that serious crimes dont deserve serious punishment.
ConstructMe
Banned
Your first post in this convo thread you essentially called anyone who cared druggos, which as we all know, is the steps one takes when they want to engage in genuine civil discourse
Oh nah i wasnt saying they were druggos just asking if they are driggos, cheers for asking for clarification.
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
Why do you consider them irredeemable?Its not really a detterent, but is it meant to be? Its just a way of solving a problem (ie what to do with those deemed un redeemable)
I'm actually going to give you a serious answer: Michael Coutts-Trotter. Click the link, then look up what Tanya Plibersek has said on this issue. Even though your initial statement about these people contributing nothing is wrong (due to their involvement in rehabilitating fellow prisoners) it's beside the point: in Australia we don't execute people for committing a crime like this, we imprison and aim to rehabilitate them.All i can say to you guys, is if you want to change the laws, go to indonesia, get elected, change the laws, other than that, acting outraged on the internet over some fucks you never met and who never did anything constructive for society is a feeble waste of time.
ConstructMe
Banned
Why do you consider them irredeemable?
I'm actually going to give you a serious answer: Michael Coutts-Trotter. Click the link, then look up what Tanya Plibersek has said on this issue. Even though your initial statement about these people contributing nothing is wrong (due to their involvement in rehabilitating fellow prisoners) it's beside the point: in Australia we don't execute people for committing a crime like this, we imprison and aim to rehabilitate them.
Did they rehabilitate others from the pure goodness of their hearts, or coz they were shitting themselves over their imminent deaths?
Box of Bunnies
Banned
Listen here my brother, direct personal attacks are not tolerated on here, cheers son dont do it again and i will let you off.
It's sister, actually.
I can't quite tell if this is a not so elaborate troll now.
Yeah, seriously.
ConstructMe
Banned
Tony is a twat, liberals suck, nbn is fucked, east west link was shit, theyve screwed victoria on public transport, the uni reforms suck, he is personally a buffoon, tho kiribilli is a nice as house.
I dislike them, but that has nothing to do with my distaste for scum drug dealers.
Especially being a labor seat liberals have fuck us on the nbn so bad, i hate them soo much, always have, just coz i talk out if the norm doesnt mean im liberal. Im nobody, they all suck, aus needs to get up to speed quick or we are fucked.
Homestly port villa has better communications infrastructure than i do in a suburban area right near a major city.
And yeah i can tell i was missed, got banned in the clarkson thread for stating the obvious fact that the bbc has harboured pedos, unless it was actually for something in here lol.
I dislike them, but that has nothing to do with my distaste for scum drug dealers.
Especially being a labor seat liberals have fuck us on the nbn so bad, i hate them soo much, always have, just coz i talk out if the norm doesnt mean im liberal. Im nobody, they all suck, aus needs to get up to speed quick or we are fucked.
Homestly port villa has better communications infrastructure than i do in a suburban area right near a major city.
And yeah i can tell i was missed, got banned in the clarkson thread for stating the obvious fact that the bbc has harboured pedos, unless it was actually for something in here lol.
Look, ConstructMe, all my senses right now are screaming at me that this is a mildly bored person playing an not-so-elaborate troll on a relatively easily-to-provoke community, but on the off chance you're not and are interested in genuine discourse on the matter, there's essentially no difference between calling everyone who wants to talk about the issue druggos and asking if they are druggos because they want to talk about the issue. Mate, it's insulting. That kind of starting point is why everyone basically didn't want to engage with you on a genuine level. It's gross simplification and strawmanning and about as far away from reasonable discourse as you can get without simply walking in here and calling everybody cunts.
The notion that serious crimes dont deserve serious punishment.
How about you make a case that 20yr sentences in prison are not serious punishment in the first case.
Death penalty is barbaric, irreversible, frequently applied to people convicted under false evidence or corrupt officials, used as a political tool and has absolutely no deterrent affect.
Further the idea that drug trafficking should fall under the same umbrella as bombing nightclubs, mass murder and the like is laughable. Drugs often do bad, but that can be better addressed by treating the users as health patients rather than criminals - thus driving them towards appropriate care instead of underground where health problems multiply into HIV and Hep C epidemics.
But no, your whirlwind posts of dumb-dumb have all the answers.
ConstructMe
Banned
Look, ConstructMe, all my senses right now are screaming at me that this is a mildly bored person playing an not-so-elaborate troll on a relatively easily-to-provoke community, but on the off chance you're not and are interested in genuine discourse on the matter, there's essentially no difference between calling everyone who wants to talk about the issue druggos and asking if they are druggos because they want to talk about the issue. Mate, it's insulting. That kind of starting point is why everyone basically didn't want to engage with you on a genuine level. It's gross simplification and strawmanning and about as far away from reasonable discourse as you can get without simply walking in here and calling everybody cunts.
Cheers for the reply, no im not a troll, just tired of hearing about these criminals, i admit i was a poor opening statement, i concede it was hardly the best way to start a constructive argument, but be clear im not a troll.
Regarding Indonesian potential military maneuvers, I'm not sure if you are talking about it in a serious manner or just as a alternative method of projecting hard power; I'm sure you're fully aware that there's not anything of strategic value for Indonesia to really attack, there's no way Indonesia could possibly hold on to anything, there's not really much point to attacking Australia beyond projecting might (if anything I'd be more worried about PNG and Timor really) and they would get stomped by pretty much the entire international community.
Indonesia ain't the DRPK yo
Indonesia ain't the DRPK yo
ConstructMe
Banned
How about you make a case that 20yr sentences in prison are not serious punishment in the first case.
Death penalty is barbaric, irreversible, frequently applied to people convicted under false evidence or corrupt officials, used as a political tool and has absolutely no deterrent affect.
Further the idea that drug trafficking should fall under the same umbrella as bombing nightclubs, mass murder and the like is laughable. Drugs often do bad, but that can be better addressed by treating the users as health patients rather than criminals - thus driving them towards appropriate care instead of underground where health problems multiply into HIV and Hep C epidemics.
But no, your whirlwind posts of dumb-dumb have all the answers.
Good points, but wierdly enough maybe both deserve the death penalty? Theres plenty to go around.
I dont like the death penalty coz it is barbaric, but if indonesia has it all we can do as regional neighbours is respect their laws and customs that have no bearing on how we live here.
If i ever go there, which i probly want, i will respect all their laws, as they are expected to when they visit here.
The notion that serious crimes dont deserve serious punishment.
Do you support the introduction for capital punishment in Australia? Which crimes should be punishable by death? Are you comfortable with killing a certain small percentage of innocent people as part of the process?
drug dealers who are responsible for thousands pf deaths (partly)
This seems to be your premise and I think it's faulty. They are a small part of a greater problem and killing every drug dealer you catch isn't going to fix the problem. I'd say better funding for mental health services is a better place to start than introducing the death penalty.
ConstructMe
Banned
Do you support the introduction for capital punishment in Australia? Which crimes should be punishable by death? Are you comfortable with killing a certain small percentage of innocent people as part of the process?
This seems to be your premise and I think it's faulty. They are a small part of a greater problem and killing every drug dealer you catch isn't going to fix the problem. I'd say better funding for mental health services is a better place to start than introducing the death penalty.
As i say in the post above, no i dont want it here as i hope we are above it, but its the same thing i dont want a tip in my backyard, but it needs to go somewhere.
but its the same thing i dont want a tip in my backyard, but it needs to go somewhere.
Meaning, you think other countries that don't currently have the death penalty should introduce it?
Or are you just generally uncomfortable with the notion of complaining about something you can't change because it makes you feel powerless?
I dont like the death penalty coz it is barbaric, but if indonesia has it all we can do as regional neighbours is respect their laws and customs that have no bearing on how we live here.
Imho the Aussie government lost a lot of moral ground after ignoring all the UN and HCR Reports about Asylum Seekers. I mean, they've been doing that forever, but ignoring them and then trying to tell Indonesia what to do... pfft.
Its not really a detterent, but is it meant to be? Its just a way of solving a problem (ie what to do with those deemed un redeemable)
How were they unredeemable? They appeared well and truly reformed by the end. Even the very right wing The Australian has the headline Bali duo's road to redemption.
Treating the drug problem as a drug war as opposed to a social issue is overwhelmingly seen as a failure in polling. It's not some Gaf echo chamber that's doing that.
Australia Indonesia relations have now hit a historic low. That is going to have an effect we will feel.
On a more human level, they've constantly been in our media for a long time now. How you haven't developed any level of empathy for their plight in this time is pretty amazing.
ConstructMe
Banned
Meaning, you think other countries that don't currently have the death penalty should introduce it?
Or are you just generally uncomfortable with the notion of complaining about something you can't change because it makes you feel powerless?
No where should introduce it, but if some places feel they need it fine, just hope i never have to live in such a society.
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
They've been in prison for ten years, these weren't deathbed conversions. Once again, I'll reiterate that in Australia (and almost every other developed country) we aim to rehabilitate people without the threat of death. You also didn't explain why you consider the theologian and the painter to be beyond redemption.Did they rehabilitate others from the pure goodness of their hearts, or coz they were shitting themselves over their imminent deaths?
No, we can show our opposition to the practice via public opinion and diplomatic channels. The fact that you "don't like" the death penalty yet attack those who make their opposition to it known and constantly propose justifications for it's use should tell you something about how solidly your views on the matter are constructed (pardon the pun).Good points, but wierdly enough maybe both deserve the death penalty? Theres plenty to go around.
I dont like the death penalty coz it is barbaric, but if indonesia has it all we can do as regional neighbours is respect their laws and customs that have no bearing on how we live here.
No where should introduce it, but if some places feel they need it fine, just hope i never have to live in such a society.
The diplomatic question is complicated, I agree. Can we expect to have this level of influence on another country's legal system? Probably not. There's nothing wrong with us complaining about it on the internet though.
Imho the Aussie government lost a lot of moral ground after ignoring all the UN and HCR Reports about Asylum Seekers. I mean, they've been doing that forever, but ignoring them and then trying to tell Indonesia what to do... pfft.
They should have allied with indonesia to campaign against the death penalty worldwide. Both countries have citizens on death row worldwide.
They should have allied with indonesia to campaign against the death penalty worldwide. Both countries have citizens on death row worldwide.
But China and the US exist so that's never gonna get anywhere
But China and the US exist so that's never gonna get anywhere
Indeed, but nothing wrong with trying.
Although Australia had success with the nuclear non proliferation treaty.
edit: or maybe the CTBT
ConstructMe
Banned
Thats one thing to remember, thats a good point, probly our best mate (usa) and one of our key trading partners (china) practise this relgiously, so they have to keep that in mind before going balls deep into condemning the entire notion of a death penalty.
Since the death penalty is on topic, I read this article a few months ago and thought it was a good read: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/09/07/trial-by-fire
It's old, long, and kind of unrelated to everything other than death penalty topic, but there you go.
It's old, long, and kind of unrelated to everything other than death penalty topic, but there you go.
Thats one thing to remember, thats a good point, probly our best mate (usa) and one of our key trading partners (china) practise this relgiously, so they have to keep that in mind before going balls deep into condemning the entire notion of a death penalty.
usa and china are equally reprehensible for doing it though. We should absolutely lobby them to stop. It may be ineffectual or it may help. But the responsibility for failing lies at the feet of the barbarians making the sentence.
Imho the Aussie government lost a lot of moral ground after ignoring all the UN and HCR Reports about Asylum Seekers. I mean, they've been doing that forever, but ignoring them and then trying to tell Indonesia what to do... pfft.
This has been my feeling to. We've got a terrible record on both asylum seekers and climate change. Both having big human rights influences on Indonesia.
While I agree with our position on the Bali duo and applaud the work Bishop and company have done, unfortunately in the greater context we come across as spoilt brats not getting our way.
Yyyyup. I said that to my girlfriend this morning, something along the lines of "You have to wonder if this would've gone as far as it did had Abbott pushed the "stop the boats" bullshit". Not exactly the same thing, but in both cases, it's hypocritical as fuck.This has been my feeling to. We've got a terrible record on both asylum seekers and climate change. Both having big human rights influences on Indonesia.
While I agree with our position on the Bali duo and applaud the work Bishop and company have done, unfortunately in the greater context we come across as spoilt brats not getting our way.
Hell, I'd go so far as to say our government's hands are as equally bloody as those of the Indonesian's.
ConstructMe
Banned
Yyyyup. I said that to my girlfriend this morning, something along the lines of "You have to wonder if this would've gone as far as it did had Abbott pushed the "stop the boats" bullshit". Not exactly the same thing, but in both cases, it's hypocritical as fuck.
Hell, I'd go so far as to say our government's hands are as equally bloody as those of the Indonesian's.
I do hate abbott, but i dont buy that.
They weren't exactly hardened criminals. Is it so hard to believe that they decided that if they were going to be stuck in prison they might as well do something productive?Did they rehabilitate others from the pure goodness of their hearts, or coz they were shitting themselves over their imminent deaths?
It's fine to condemn the notion of the death penalty when our allies and partners still have it. What's not a good idea is calling the Indonesians names over maintaining it on the books (though I guess calling them names over their handling of this specific situation is slightly better).Thats one thing to remember, thats a good point, probly our best mate (usa) and one of our key trading partners (china) practise this relgiously, so they have to keep that in mind before going balls deep into condemning the entire notion of a death penalty.
In the wider context of all the different countries involved you can't pin the blame squarely on our actions. But we probably have contributed to the new government trying to look tough in the face of perceived weakness and growing anti-Australian sentiment. I doubt we'll ever know for sure what factors contributed how much though.I do hate abbott, but i dont buy that.
I don't think it would've gone as far and I don't think you can lay it entirely on Abbott and his government (although their grandstanding hasn't helped matters).
It's kind of a weird thing to say but if there hadn't been this massive media attention paid on it it's not certain that they'd have been executed. But the media attention really meant the Indonesians really had to double down on their policies, at least in this specific instance.
It's kind of a weird thing to say but if there hadn't been this massive media attention paid on it it's not certain that they'd have been executed. But the media attention really meant the Indonesians really had to double down on their policies, at least in this specific instance.
I do hate abbott, but i dont buy that.
Indonesia wanted to hurt us and this allowed them to do so. There was definitely politics involved. The case was way to high profile for it not to be.
Reading between the lines in your posts, it's that symbolic loss of power that's really getting you riled up. If we don't care, they can't hurt us.
At the end of the day I don't think we should blame our own government. No they weren't perfect, but ultimately it's Indonesia which has carried out the executions. We weren't the only country to have nationals executed and we sure as hell weren't the only country lobbying for clemency.
At the end of the day I don't think we should blame our own government. No they weren't perfect, but ultimately it's Indonesia which has carried out the executions. We weren't the only country to have nationals executed and we sure as hell weren't the only country lobbying for clemency.
Exactly. Blame lies with the killers.
I don't think anyone's squarely putting the blame on the government (and nor was I), but any shred of impartiality the Indonesian government could've had regarding this case would surely have been affected by our ridiculous stance on "the boats".
They shouldn't let something like that affect their decision, but given their apparent weakness for corruption, it's clear they're severely lacking in any kind of moral fiber.
They shouldn't let something like that affect their decision, but given their apparent weakness for corruption, it's clear they're severely lacking in any kind of moral fiber.
I don't think anyone's squarely putting the blame on the government (and nor was I), but any shred of impartiality the Indonesian government could've had regarding this case would surely have been affected by our ridiculous stance on "the boats".
The Indonesian governments for the past fifty years have been pretty contemptible towards Australian interest cases. Balibo, Bali bombings, the corruption endemic in the people smuggling trade and officials turning blind eye to it.
Australia isn't perfect sure. Our human rights record wrt asylum seekers and indigenous Australia speaks for itself. But Indonesian track records are worse especially considering west Papua and Timor Leste.
Elaugaufein
Member
I'm willing to go to war with Indonesia over this. I've been waiting over a decade for that heroin. No I don't care that eight humans have been murdered by authorities in a nation with rampant corruption and populism for an offence that societies with values closer to my own punish with prison time and rehabilitation, which is what those executed had undergone. I just want my horse.
Darn it. I was going to go the other direction and pretend that a whole bunch of things I care about politically that have no bearing at all on me, for various reasons, where actually of deep concern to me personally because of (reason why they didn't) but I'm never going to be able to top this.
You don't think they used it as another checkmark against our name on their shitlist, though?The Indonesian governments for the past fifty years have been pretty contemptible towards Australian interest cases. Balibo, Bali bombings, the corruption endemic in the people smuggling trade and officials turning blind eye to it.
Australia isn't perfect sure. Our human rights record wrt asylum seekers and indigenous Australia speaks for itself. But Indonesian track records are worse especially considering west Papua and Timor Leste.
You don't think they used it as another checkmark against our name on their shitlist, though?
Perhaps, but Indonesia has done vastly more to wrong Australia than vice versa.
PhantomZone
Member
Why do you consider them irredeemable?
I'm actually going to give you a serious answer: Michael Coutts-Trotter. Click the link, then look up what Tanya Plibersek has said on this issue. Even though your initial statement about these people contributing nothing is wrong (due to their involvement in rehabilitating fellow prisoners) it's beside the point: in Australia we don't execute people for committing a crime like this, we imprison and aim to rehabilitate them.
Ultimately it's their country, their rules and regulations.
These two and the others on death row broke those laws and will be punished to the fullest extent of Indonesian law. If you don't like it, don't visit the country. If other people who live there don't like it, then they damn sure better not break the law otherwise they could be on the same path.
These two deserve no sympathy at all, they knew the risks and broke a law with a very serious consequence. They have paid the ultimate price for it and now it's time to move on.
Ultimately it's their country, their rules and regulations.
These two and the others on death row broke those laws and will be punished to the fullest extent of Indonesian law. If you don't like it, don't visit the country. If other people who live there don't like it, then they damn sure better not break the law otherwise they could be on the same path.
These two deserve no sympathy at all, they knew the risks and broke a law with a very serious consequence. They have paid the ultimate price for it and now it's time to move on.
So "anything goes" if it's the law in a given country. Let's see how long it takes you to figure out the flaw in that logic.
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