PhantomZone
Member
Their own fault for resorting to crime in the first place.
Drugs kill people so they are getting the just result.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Australia/Indonesia relations hit low point over drug executions
- Thread starter Kenshin001
- Start date
- Status
Their own fault for resorting to crime in the first place.
Drugs kill people so they are getting the just result.
Oh wow, Indonesia does antagonize quite some important people.
Oh, I whole heartedly agree with you with what's going on with the asylum seekers. I'm not saying Australia is the beacon of perfect. I know we have problems, but then we shouldn't stand idly by and watch our own citizens get killed for no justifiable reason.
The Australian Human Rights Commission is a genuine Liberal mouthpiece. The head commissioner, appointed by Abbott, is a known sceptic. That commission into Kids in Detention was an oddity, probably brought out because the people know the Commission is a fallacy. Probably a reason why Abbott got so defensive and angry.
You're actually stating trafficking some substances is a valid reason to kill someone?
PhantomZone
Member
Those are the laws in that country, abide by them or you're screwed.............. pretty simple rule to follow really.
Aren't they more like.... guidelines?
It's an archaic law and it ought to be changed.
PhantomZone
Member
Your Darwin award winners right here!
I don't really see why this is such a big fucking deal. I swear Australians getting killed overseas who were innocent don't gain as much traction,but people who were planning on smuggling dope into the country gain everyone's sympathy? Come on.Especially H. Fuck that noise. Especially to the point our PM comments on it, and a stupid fucking comment I might add.
On other side of pond, this is probably "change" that Indonesia public hope for.
Amnesty for drug convict death penalty is the norm than exception before this, and its always been popular issue for indonesian press and public, they're like "argh.. again!?" for every amnesty given.
Drugs is one of country top issue, and their public and press may oversimplifying thing with accusing the law not strict enough against drug convict as the problem is getting bigger.
New President statement for he will not give amnesty for drug convict is popular move within the press/public that outsider can see it as baffling, as you can see there's different point of view.
Bingo.
Nobody cares, its a divisive issue to distract everyone while Tony Abbot slips in his internet filter on the sly.
Wait, what? Do you have your facts straight? Triggs strives for neutrality but is probably more lefty than anything else. Are we talking about the same commissioner?
Stereogatari
Banned
How much do drugs harm Indonesian society? It's easy from a Western First World perspective to say gross, but perhaps Indonesian society has deep seated reasons for wanting to be harsh to drug trafficking.
Oh you're thinking of Tim Wilson, do'h. Or rather I was thinking of the wrong person.
btw known humongeous IPA stooge Tim Wilson and Human Rights Commissioner disassociates himself from Abbott's hissy fit
btw known humongeous IPA stooge Tim Wilson and Human Rights Commissioner disassociates himself from Abbott's hissy fit
Gillian Triggs is the President of the Human Rights Commission.
Tim Wilson is the High Commissioner. He is a known right-winger. He used to be a policy director for the Liberal Party's think-tank, the Insitute of Public Affairs. He even had the audacity to support the removal of Section 18c of the Racial Discrimination Act, something a human rights advocate should NEVER do. Such a disgrace.
I think you might be giving Tony too much credit. He can't get that through the Senate without Labor, and they're basically stalling on that issue for the time being.
I seriously think this posturing is a result of him believing he needs to appear the leader in the eyes of the nation to survive politically.
There should never have been a big deal made over the punishment. Australia should have been more like: "you break foreign laws, particularly sensibly severe ones like drug smuggling, you pay the price". These fools knew what they were doing and there should be no clemency simply because they are foreigners to Indonesia.
Personally I don't believe in capital punishment, and feel that life imprisonment (or something close to it) is a better and harsher penalty, and Australia could enter diplomatic discussions with other countries about the merits of such jurisdictional matters, but hey, IMHO foreigners need to respect the law of the land (so long as fairness and liberty apply), just as we expect foreigners in our land to play by our rules.
Personally I don't believe in capital punishment, and feel that life imprisonment (or something close to it) is a better and harsher penalty, and Australia could enter diplomatic discussions with other countries about the merits of such jurisdictional matters, but hey, IMHO foreigners need to respect the law of the land (so long as fairness and liberty apply), just as we expect foreigners in our land to play by our rules.
It's also pretty simple to understand that just because a country has a set of laws that does not mean it's immune to outside influence or the expectation to act like human beings. Indonensia sure doesn't mind the investments from the west that prop up their economy.
Going by your thought process nobody should ever insist on human rights in the world except for their tiny little corner of it.
I'm of 2 minds about the whole thing.
On one hand they were smuggling a very addictive substance through a country with extreme laws related to drug smuggling. Australia should petition for mercy without resorting to threats or blackmail....but that would require an intelligent leader who knows what statecraft is.
On the other hand the AFP should not have tipped off the Indonesians and had them arrested in Australia. The death penalty isn't a good deterant for smugglers, but faced with their own mortality the pair seem to have been rehabilitated....so is the death penalty really necessary, given that prisons should be primarily for rehabilitation and not punishment?
On one hand they were smuggling a very addictive substance through a country with extreme laws related to drug smuggling. Australia should petition for mercy without resorting to threats or blackmail....but that would require an intelligent leader who knows what statecraft is.
On the other hand the AFP should not have tipped off the Indonesians and had them arrested in Australia. The death penalty isn't a good deterant for smugglers, but faced with their own mortality the pair seem to have been rehabilitated....so is the death penalty really necessary, given that prisons should be primarily for rehabilitation and not punishment?
Do you have any sympathy for homosexuals in the Middle East?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Slowly trending towards the former away from the latter.
IdreamofHIME
Member
Drug dealers go to Indonesia to exploit poor people, Prime Minister compares their freedom to thousands who died in the Tsunami.
What a fucking scum bag.
What a fucking scum bag.
Damerman
Member
Indonesia is fucking infamous for their laws against drug trafficking. I knew this since i was 12(thanks to a documentary on HBO)... yes its unfair, but why would you fuck with the Indonesians in that way if you know they don't play that shit?
lastplayed
Member
It's mostly like Australia I think.
Damerman
Member
you do realize that you are equating homosexuality to the trafficking of illegal narcotics, right?
Darren870
Member
Bingo.
I am actually sick of hearing about these two. Its constantly on the news and every time I open an article there they are.
Lets not forget that these 2 were the masterminds behind the whole plan. They knew exactly what they were getting themselves into and what they were doing and the risks they were taking. They were the ones that were going to benefit from it the most and took the least amount of risk. Chan didn't even have drugs on him.
This is also why the other 7 members of the Bali 9 are severing life in prison and aren't on death row.
If you play with fire you're going to get burnt.....As they say.....
PhantomZone
Member
Game, set and match!
Phrynobatrachus
Neo Member
Are you fucking kidding me? Not only is this a completely medieval view on things, you're also ignoring the fact that the majority of drug traffickers/mules are normal people who were forced into the trade against their will.
Sutton Dagger
Member
He's pointing out that 'well that's the law over there' defence is an untenable position, it accepts atrocities in the name of cultural relativism.
Damerman
Member
drug trafficking punishment is subject to cultural relativism? what?
He didn't need to go as far as homosexuality... that isn't a crime... just compare how most developed countries are doing away with capital punishment. Being put to death because of sexual orientation is a cultural issue and humanitarian issue. being put to death for criminally trafficking narcotics isn't a cultural issue... it's just a humanitarian issue.
Don't blame me! I voted for Kodos.
PhantomZone
Member
People make choices, regardless if it's for "good" purpose, break a countries law and you will be punished as they see fit. Don't like their rules and laws ? Then don't visit the country - it's not rocket science.
Far better than suffering through the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd - potential Swan/Shorten era
.TheHeretic
Banned
If the United States were executing drug dealers i'm sure we'd hear the same apologetics in this thread, right? Or are executions for non-crimes perfectly acceptable if brown-skinned people are pulling the lever?
Sutton Dagger
Member
T
The point really did fly over your head.... Homosexuality is a crime in certain places, meaning that the idea of 'well it's the law of the land' when followed to its logical conclusion endorses the right for countries to kill homosexuals. The point he was making was that capital punishment should not be accepted just because it's 'the law' in particular countries, instead we should be espousing ideals of rehabilitation and mercy, especially I'm cases of drug trafficking when we know of cases where people are forced into these situations (not saying it's the case here, but the death penalty needs to be off the table).
The point really did fly over your head.... Homosexuality is a crime in certain places, meaning that the idea of 'well it's the law of the land' when followed to its logical conclusion endorses the right for countries to kill homosexuals. The point he was making was that capital punishment should not be accepted just because it's 'the law' in particular countries, instead we should be espousing ideals of rehabilitation and mercy, especially I'm cases of drug trafficking when we know of cases where people are forced into these situations (not saying it's the case here, but the death penalty needs to be off the table).
I'll repeat: Most of the drug traffickers are normal people, civilians, forced into doing this by crime syndicates. They have no choice.
It's not as easy as: don't like these laws, then don't visit
Sutton Dagger
Member
People make choices, regardless if it's for "good" purpose, break a countries law and you will be punished as they see fit. Don't like their rules and laws ? Then don't visit the country - it's not rocket science.
Far better than suffering through the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd - potential Swan/Shorten era
I see a connection between these two statements, they tell a lot about you.
Damerman
Member
PhantomZone
Member
There's always a choice, don't want to do something DON'T DO IT AT ALL.
Sutton Dagger
Member
You can't be this dense? If someone makes threats against your family you still have a choice right? There are many situations where being a drug trafficker is not a choice.
Damerman
Member
the point didn't fly over my head. I'm just saying there are better examples that juxtapose with drug trafficking... Well, capital punishment is something that is up for debate. Not even the US has reached a conclusion about it. Capital Punishment for a homosexual and Capital Punishment for a drug trafficker isn't comparable... ever.
Darren870
Member
Yes and that it why the other 7 members of this group are spending life in prison and not being executed. They are executing the ring leaders behind the trafficking.
Their are strict laws relating to drugs in Indonesia, but they don't kill everyone that is caught with something.
PhantomZone
Member
Do what they tell you and end up being hung/shot to death by breaking laws
Don't do what they tell you and end up dead from disobeying criminal syndicates
Getting authorities involved to protect you and still end up dead
You're screwed either way
In any case these Australians deserve what's coming to them.
Culturally, it's basically the UK but bigger, with more wide-spread land. But no other western countries are as socially and/or poltically backwards as Australia, imo
But yeah, these guys knew the full consequences of what they were doing, yet they still did it. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I don't condone the death penalty, but come on. What'd they seriously expect?
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
Just to reiterate, the Bali Nine were attempting to smuggle drugs into Australia, not Indonesia. Australia would have been impacted by the sale of their drugs, not Indonesia. Australia does not execute drug dealers or smugglers and the group were only arrested in Indonesia due to a decision made by the Australian Federal Police to alert Indonesian authorities instead of arresting them in Australia.
What do you mean? Australia consistently ranks alongside the Nordic nations at the top of measures such as HDI.
Sutton Dagger
Member
The point is they are comparable in certain countries, hence cultural relativism is a flawed ideology. The death penalty is not up for debate in terms of the harm it causes to potentially innocent people, it shouldn't be on the table.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
He's pathetic, isn't he? He says all this stupid shit and just comes off as a complete buffoon. Obnoxious threats like this to other countries just make me shake my head in embarrassment. It just keeps happening, too! I'm embarrassed to have him speaking on our behalf.
Why is it a big furore now it's closer to the execution date - did they think it wasn't going to happen? Barely a peep about these two for years and now he's having a tantrum about it.
It's an awful situation, I am not on the side of the death penalty at all but I don't know what people expect in a situation like this - the easy solution is not to smuggle huge amounts of drugs through a country like Indonesia.
Yes, the cynical side of me is treating this as nothing more than a grasp for votes and looking relatable. I wouldn't put it past Abbott. He's like an autocue-fed robot.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked