Support NeoGAF

[commedieu]

That's completely different from what he's saying. I know full well the per capita numbers based on race. "More likely" isn't the same as "More often".

The intellectual point of the post you replied to, to refute. Was that blacks are killed often by police, more so than white people. That is true. Which the numbers back up. Based on data you posted,

Likely, often, that's not making a completely different point. Especially in a international thread where English isn't the perfected language of many. Its not like he was exaggerating a point.


But on topic,

I sense this dude isn't going to get the blue union support and all the trimmings. He's been outed so fast, and his partner is already talking.

He's going to learn what it means to be that small % of the population that gets the brunt of the justice system.

That blue club has a few things in common. Being somali, ain't part of that.

 

[F34R]

The intellectual point of the post you replied to, to refute. Was that blacks are killed often by police, more so than white people. That is true. Which the numbers back up. Based on data you posted,

Likely, often, that's not making a completely different point. Especially in a international thread where English isn't the perfected language of many. Its not like he was exaggerating a point.


But on topic,

I sense this dude isn't going to get the blue union support and all the trimmings. He's been outed so fast, and his partner is already talking.

He's going to learn what it means to be that small % of the population that gets the brunt of the justice system.

That blue club has a few things in common. Being somali, ain't part of that.

No biggie. If it was, that's fine. If not, then there's the info. All good. No issues really.
Back to the OT.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

That's completely different from what he's saying. I know full well the per capita numbers based on race. "More likely" isn't the same as "More often".

It's a semantic argument, based on an off the cuff comment. I should have been more precise and said "african americans are killed by police in disproportionate numbers", but since that discussion has been done to death in this very thread, I assumed it was implied.

 

[SecretMoblin]

In the time between a firework going off and him pulling his gun while sitting, he didn't have the sense to recognise the sound of fireworks?

Especially odd since fireworks have been legal here for a few years now and are common in the Twin Cities in July. Literally anyone who's lived in the area has heard them over several nights.

Boggles the mind that an officer would flip out because of it, enough to shoot a lady in her pajamas.

Regardless, the story has been co-opted by #narratives and whatever happens from here on out will only magnify the tragedy.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Sorry for my ignorance, but every time i see one of these topics of an american cop killing or wounding someone with a gun, it always comes to mind that responding to a call as a cop (going to the place), has to be a completely different thing in a country completely filled with guns, right? compared to the same thing in europe?

(never asked about it)

Yes, which is part of the problem. But I'd characterize the problems with policing in the US writ large as aggravated by the availability of firearms, not mainly caused by them. Well-trained and professional cops in the US can and have de-escalated situations with guys openingly carrying without having to shoot them dead; it's not the wild west out there, even in rough neighborhoods.

There's some potential hope that the international angle of this case might prompt more heat on local PD to clean up, but it's doubtful. As to why the police offer looks like he's on his own on this one, the fact he's somali probably has a lot less to do with it than the fact that even in the pantheon of weak reasons to shoot someone by police, this is as far as I know the least defensible. Being a minority didn't revoke the blue shields in the minds of the jury for the Freddie Gray killing, after all.

 

[F34R]

It's a semantic argument, based on an off the cuff comment. I should have been more precise and said "african americans are killed by police in disproportionate numbers", but since that discussion has been done to death in this very thread, I assumed it was implied.

It's all good. I was going off how I read it, instead of assuming what you meant. No problem.

 

[Kinyou]

Unfortunately, we can't really debate on numbers that aren't available. Guessing never works. So we can really only go with what we have. I am not arguing the percentage/population info. Just simply giving him the info that is out there based on what he's saying.

That numbers aren't properly collected still blows my mind. How is this not in the interest of every single American?

 

[F34R]

That numbers aren't properly collected still blows my mind. How is this not in the interest of every single American?

Same. There's a lot in the good 'ol US of A that doesn't make much sense at times. I'm all for 100% in the following areas:

• Accountability
• Transparency
• equality
• no discrimination
• ... list could take pages to complete lol.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

It's all good. I was going off how I read it, instead of assuming what you meant. No problem.

No worries at all man.

OT:

I really find the stated events leading up to this tragedy baffling...

The initial reports stated that the victim was at the driver's side window speaking with the perpetrator-cop's partner when he shot her.

The more recent comments seems to suggest she was approaching the car when the firework went off and the cop discharged his weapon.

They can't both be true.

 

[Desi]

I mean look at the campus cop who had two hung juries when he clearly opened fire on someone and wasn't in danger. Or the hung jury for the cop who shot a guy running away. When you don't get punished, who cares right?

or the retired cop who followed his white daughter's black boyfriend and shot him.

 

[BunnyBear]

Assuming this is a tragic situation where the cop has panicked and believed she had a gun/had fired a gun, it's just another pointless argument for total gun control in the U.S.

The cops are jumpy because they have to assume everyone is armed, and it leads to situations like this. Pathetic, pathetic gun laws. The Second Amendment is a disgraceful and archaic piece of legislation.

 

[Izuna]

American cops seem to have such a nervous disposition that, practically speaking, they're more of a threat to normal citizens than the criminals are. It's like they've all been watching too many Lethal Weapon movies and decided that "loose cannon" is now the goal to aspire to.

I'm surprised US gang violence is even still a thing anymore. If those African american gangs were smart, they'd just call the cops on their rival gang's members and let the pigs with nervous itchy trigger fingers do the murdering for them; since that's what they're gonna do anyway, and they seem to do it so well with full impunity.

Woooooooooow

 

[ApharmdX]

That numbers aren't properly collected still blows my mind. How is this not in the interest of every single American?

It's by design, in my opinion. The numbers are of interest but I think the concern (from a law enforcement perspective) is that, with accurate stats, the entire justice system in America will look bad and that it will expose the frightening reality- that there still exists systemic institutional racism in this country.

Any serious criminal justice reform has got to include a mandate for police agencies to report detailed use-of-force statistics to the FBI.

 

[F34R]

It's by design, in my opinion. The numbers are of interest but I think the concern (from a law enforcement perspective) is that, with accurate stats, the entire justice system in America will look bad and that it will expose the frightening reality- that there still exists systemic institutional racism in this country.

Any serious criminal justice reform has got to include a mandate for police agencies to report detailed use-of-force statistics to the FBI.

Some states, SC for example, are required to report all criminal cases to the state doj. SLED for SC. It shouldn't be much a stretch for the FBI to be able to get that info from the state level instead of relying it on the local level.

 

[Isaac Otherworld]

Woooooooooow

Isn't this why Swatting is a thing though?

 

[Days like these...]

Being 'one of the good ones' ain't gonna save him from killing a white lady.

 

[toastyToast]

Looks like he's getting thrown under the bus for this. In no way surprising.

I hope the, "I'm gonna wait for the facts/He was no angel." types can be seen as espousing the racist rhetoric they are the next time a young black male gets gunned down for going about his day.

 

[SyenceLabb]

????

This isn't a single fucking incident, this is an epidemic with tens of thousands of deaths, if not more.

A single incident? Really? What were you thinking?

My comment was in relation to gangs being smarter than the police. Then your retort was directed towards a strawman.

Edit: If your beef is too many cops are ill-trained to operate as civil servants and enforce the law, you have someone that agrees with you.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

A timeline of the calls and police response shows what we know. Source

11.27pm: First 911 call.
Ms Damond reports she hears a woman “having sex or being raped” in the alley behind her home on 51st St and Washburn Ave. The operator says they have “already got an officer on the way.”
“What is your name?” the officer asks.
“JUSTINE.”

11.35pm: Second 911 call.
Ms Damond calls emergency services again saying no one has arrived and checks if officers got the address wrong. “Are you JUSTINE?” the operator asks. “You’re hearing a female screaming?”
Ms Damond confirms and is told “officers are on the way there”.

11.39pm: Police arrive.
A squad car, driven by officer Matthew Harrity with officer Mohamed Noor in the passenger seat, arrive at the address. The officers report on police radio the incident is a “Code four”, meaning no back up is required.

11.41pm: Shooting reported.
The situation has completely changed. Officers call for back up requesting a police, fire and emergency response. The incident report notes at this time: “ONE DOWN... STARTING CPR.”
Police radio transcript from the time shows officers reported: “Shots fired at Washburn and 53rd Street. Correction 51st. Sergeant to acknowledge shots fired and one down at Washburn.”

11.46pm: Police radio in
Confirm there are “no suspects at large”.

11.49pm: Incident report
Shows police “have been doing CPR for last four minutes”. “Two additional police units have arrived on the scene.”

 

[GHG]

A timeline of the calls and police response shows what we know. Source

11.27pm: First 911 call.
Ms Damond reports she hears a woman “having sex or being raped” in the alley behind her home on 51st St and Washburn Ave. The operator says they have “already got an officer on the way.”
“What is your name?” the officer asks.
“JUSTINE.”

11.35pm: Second 911 call.
Ms Damond calls emergency services again saying no one has arrived and checks if officers got the address wrong. “Are you JUSTINE?” the operator asks. “You’re hearing a female screaming?”
Ms Damond confirms and is told “officers are on the way there”.

11.39pm: Police arrive.
A squad car, driven by officer Matthew Harrity with officer Mohamed Noor in the passenger seat, arrive at the address. The officers report on police radio the incident is a “Code four”, meaning no back up is required.

11.41pm: Shooting reported.
The situation has completely changed. Officers call for back up requesting a police, fire and emergency response. The incident report notes at this time: “ONE DOWN... STARTING CPR.”
Police radio transcript from the time shows officers reported: “Shots fired at Washburn and 53rd Street. Correction 51st. Sergeant to acknowledge shots fired and one down at Washburn.”

11.46pm: Police radio in
Confirm there are “no suspects at large”.

11.49pm: Incident report
Shows police “have been doing CPR for last four minutes”. “Two additional police units have arrived on the scene.”

How the fuck does it go from code 4 to the innocent woman who called the police getting shot by the police in the space of 2 minutes?

RIP to this poor woman.

This is going to set a horrible precident whereby innocent people will be reluctant to call the police to report incidents or to try and get help for other people.

 

[supermarioworldE]

R.I.P. to the victim.

It's sad that at this point it's a tossup whether justice will be dealt or not due to the races and the shooter being a cop.

Fucking America.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

How the fuck does it go from code 4 to the innocent woman who called the police getting shot by the police in the space of 2 minutes?

RIP to this poor woman.

This is going to set a horrible precident whereby innocent people will be reluctant to call the police to report incidents or to try and get help for other people.

Crazy that someone calls twice and within a couple of minutes of the second call the police car arrives and she goes out to greet them, only to be met with fear and a lethal gunshot. How does police training not account for the call, gender of caller, second call via dispatch in their vehicle audio/terminal get Noor to equate that with an attack?

You couldn't really ask for better "safe and informed" circumstances for an officer to arrive into.

 

[Kettch]

CPR immediately after the shooting?

For some reason I can't recall that happening when innocent black men/boys get shot.

 

[poppabk]

CPR immediately after the shooting?

For some reason I can't recall that happening when innocent black men/boys get shot.

CPR started 5 minutes after shooting.

 

[Derwind]

CPR immediately after the shooting?

For some reason I can't recall that happening when innocent black men/boys get shot.

They do administer CPR right away though... Choke. Punch. Repeat.

 

[commedieu]

Everyone's anti cop till you NEED them.

Oh. Wait.

 

[norm9]

This cop gonna get roasted and excommunicated. He fucked up by being Somali and a coward.

 

[Mohonky]

CPR immediately after the shooting?

For some reason I can't recall that happening when innocent black men/boys get shot.

Must be selective ignorance.

 

[sarcastor]

A timeline of the calls and police response shows what we know. Source

The sound led the officers to believe they were “caught in an ambush”, KSTP reported, and Mr Noor fired his gun, which was in his lap at the time.The bullet fired past Mr Harrity in the driver’s seat, through the open driver’s side window and struck Ms Damond in the abdomen.

so he had his gun in his hand on his lap, was startled by Justine banging on the door, so he accidently shot her? Are you fucking serious?

 

[LizardKing]

Police overuse of force and abuse of power is a much deeper rooted problem than racism (although racism can exacerbate the issue). The sooner everybody realizes this and is angry at the actual root of the issue the better off we will all be. It's stupid to argue about who is more unjustly killed or abused when every group is and nobody should be. How about blacks and whites unite against the real causes of the blue gang instead of fighting about who has it worse.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

so he had his gun in his hand on his lap, was startled by Justine banging on the door, so he accidently shot her? Are you fucking serious?

My understanding is it was not accidental, he meant to shoot her thinking she was attacking.

 

[jaekeem]

Assuming this is a tragic situation where the cop has panicked and believed she had a gun/had fired a gun, it's just another pointless argument for total gun control in the U.S.

The cops are jumpy because they have to assume everyone is armed, and it leads to situations like this. Pathetic, pathetic gun laws. The Second Amendment is a disgraceful and archaic piece of legislation.

nobody assuming everyone is armed should have the tantamount license to kill that the average cop does

blaming the second amendment for trained police being unable to use the common sense that average people do every day. absolutely ridiculous.

 

[danthefan]

This cop gonna get roasted and excommunicated. He fucked up by being Somali and a coward.

Actually he fucked up by shooting an innocent woman for no reason.

 

[Deaf Spacker]

It's made the headlines on a few websites in the U.K.

I can't believe what I've been reading.

RIP Justine.

 

[Marky Mark]

CPR immediately after the shooting?

For some reason I can't recall that happening when innocent black men/boys get shot.

1148 CPR for the last four minutes, so started at 1144. Period of time where they just let her bleed out on the ground. Read proper

 

[Mohonky]

It's made the headlines on a few websites in the U.K.

I can't believe what I've been reading.

RIP Justine.

Yeh its being covered quite a bit in Australia, especially online news sites.

 

[Cow Mengde]

Actually he fucked up by shooting an innocent woman for no reason.

That's not how America works.

 

[WarLox]

Has her toxicology report came back yet?

 

[Mohonky]

Has her toxicology report came back yet?

Still trying to find the blood through all those drugs in her system

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

What has David "America's Sheriff" Clarke had to say about this?

 

[Tecnniqe]

The friend also told the Mail that he felt he had been “thrown under the bus” by his police colleagues.

“His colleagues are accusing him of not showing proper police conduct on Saturday night,” the friend said.

🤔🤔

 

[Hurricane_Chris]

If I have break it down for you, the police is smarter than the gangs.

Individually, I do not that this is a true statement.

The average IQ range for humans is 70-130 (95%).

The average US cop's IQ is somewhere around 102.

In 1994 there was a study of Los Angeles gang members in "leadership" positions that were arrested and convicted. I can't find the study at the moment but that cohort had an IQ of like 115 or 116 (Can't remember which).

I know what happens when you assume, but given this one might be tempted to assume that, individually, rank and file gang members are probably of similar intelligence to rank and file cops.

It is true, however, that police have better infrastructure and a lot of smart help.


As an aside, check out the case of Robert Jordan. He tried to become a cop but was denied because his IQ was deemed too high. People with IQs that are too high are frequently turned down.

 

[Dhx]

Individually, I do not that this is a true statement.

The average IQ range for humans is 70-130 (95%).

The average US cop's IQ is somewhere around 102.

In 1994 there was a study of Los Angeles gang members in "leadership" positions that were arrested and convicted. I can't find the study at the moment but that cohort had an IQ of like 115 or 116 (Can't remember which).

I know what happens when you assume, but given this one might be tempted to assume that, individually, rank and file gang members are probably of similar intelligence to rank and file cops.

You can't quite square that assumption with this data, even assuming it's all correct. You have very limited data on the gang side, localized to LA and only leadership.

Completely agree about the absurdity of turning away high IQ candidates, though. So what if some leave? Not all will. Take the best. Tax us a few more pennies.

 

[Derwind]

Police overuse of force and abuse of power is a much deeper rooted problem than racism (although racism can exacerbate the issue). The sooner everybody realizes this and is angry at the actual root of the issue the better off we will all be. It's stupid to argue about who is more unjustly killed or abused when every group is and nobody should be. How about blacks and whites unite against the real causes of the blue gang instead of fighting about who has it worse.

Racism reinforces America's police unions, feeds their prison systems, sustains & expand their budgets to continue militarization.

Good luck addressing Police Brutality by framing racism in law enforcement as a secondary issue.

It'll certainly help to at least stop the unjust murders of unarmed White Women at the hands of police.

The idea that you find it stupid to address the fact in America that while only make up like 12% of the population black people make a fifth to upward of a quarter of the yearly deaths at the hands of law enforcement or that black men are estimated to be 21 times more likely to be killed by police than white men, just tells me you don't really care to find a tangible solution to police brutality, or that you want to find a neat & cozy solution that solves very little for the marginalized & disenfranchised. (Please tell me I'm wrong, no sarcasm)

Here are some sources for these Police related statistics;
- https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/
- http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36826297
- https://www.google.ca/amp/s/thinkprogress.org/amp/p/e9e78c890966
- https://thesocietypages.org/toolbox/police-killing-of-blacks/ (Last Updated May 16, 2017).

If you want to address the abuse of power & lack of accountability in law enforcement, you're going to have to acknowledge the racism that helped shape the system that enables & protects those that abuse power and avoid accountability.

Maybe then everyone can finally come together when another Philando Castile, Freddie Gray, Michael Brown ...ect is killed.

But that would require the cooperation of a majority of Americans that largely supports the police institution. A majority that have the confidence in knowing they have 21 times less likelihood of being stopped and killed by an officer.

So again, good luck solving your police issue by ignoring the significance that race plays in policing.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

Just about sums it up. I'd never consider moving to America and US police are just one reason.

Yeah, as an Australian it's insane to see how this isn't resolved yet. In Aus there would be extensive investigations, but then again I'm pretty sure we're a better country in that regard, amongst others.

 

[Charles Brandon]

So the only explanation we have right now is that Noor heard some fireworks and somehow assumed the victim was attacking them and unloaded in her face?

 

[SecretMoblin]

So the only explanation we have right now is that Noor heard some fireworks and somehow assumed the victim was attacking them and unloaded in her face?

Per ABC affiliate KSTP, apparently she startled them:

The officers had responded to a report of a possible assault. After not noticing any activity, they were dispatched to another call when a young man rode past on a bicyle along 51st Street. As the officers watched the bicyclist cross the passenger side of the vehicle, they heard the pounding noise on the driver's side, the source said.

Harrity, who was driving, told BCA investigators that "Officer Noor discharged his weapon" from the passenger side of the vehicle.

Noor had his gun in his lap at the time, according to the source.

The source said the bicyclist stopped at the scene after the shooting and videotaped the aftermath.

That entire passage is unsettling :/

 

[Stinkles]

Yeah, as an Australian it's insane to see how this isn't resolved yet. In Aus there would be extensive investigations, but then again I'm pretty sure we're a better country in that regard, amongst others.

Do you know how many police departments that the US has? No? Because neither does the US.

We are literally unsure how many police departments we have in total.

Like.

Wtf.

 

[danthefan]

Do you know how many police departments that the US has? No? Because neither does the US.

We are literally unsure how many police departments we have in total.

Like.

Wtf.

That's absolutely bizarre.

 

[poppabk]

Do you know how many police departments that the US has? No? Because neither does the US.

We are literally unsure how many police departments we have in total.

Like.

Wtf.

My old HOA had its own police department who could enforce HOA rules. Armed police enforcing no decorations on your mailbox ordinances.

Spoiler

It actually seemed to work pretty well.