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[Faith]

What if a free woman chooses too?

I have very mixed feeling about this... obviously this sort of 'dress' can be used in an abusive form, or to conceal identity for malicious purposes, but some women wear this with their own free will and find it liberating. In that case who has the right to deny it?

No, not a single one in the whole world. If a woman "wants" to wear it, then only because she was brainwashed.

I'm all for religious freedom (I would go protesting on the street right now if I would live in America, don't get me wrong here). But I think this is really harmful for a modern society.

 

[Ashes]

No, not a single one in the whole world. If a woman "wants" to wear it, then only because she was brainwashed.

I'm all for religious freedom (I would go protesting on the street right now if I would live in America, don't get me wrong here). But I think this is really harmful for a modern society.

Who gets to decide she's brainwashed?

 

[Pusherman]

I edited your post, maybe you now see why your whole line of reasoning doesn't make any sense whatsoever?

A Nazi uniform is a uniform associated with the attempt to systematically destroy the Jewish people. The perpetrators of that heinous crime where overwhelmingly white Europeans. Nowadays, Nazi uniforms are most often worn by white Europeans or their descendants. Them wearing it can almost always be interpreted as them wanting to associate themselves with Nazis. Often they proudly declare their allegiance to Nazism.

A face veil is a cultural and religious article of clothing associated with rules on modesty within certain minority interpretations of islam. These interpretations can be held by both men and women. The face veil is often attacked from many sides. Many islamic theologians claim that it is not actually islamic. Many orientalists claim that it is a clear sign of islam's backwardness and inferiority in comparison to the west. Many feminist claim it is a misogynist method of patriarchy to control and dehumanize women. While I agree with the first and last of those arguments I can still see a difference between Nazi uniforms and face veils.

If you cannot see the differences between Nazi uniforms and face veils, however, I just want to point out that Nazi uniforms aren't banned in most place and that I personally would never support a ban on Nazi uniforms. So your comparison is moot either way.

No, not a single one in the whole world. If a woman "wants" to wear it, then only because she was brainwashed.

I'm all for religious freedom (I would go protesting on the street right now if I would live in America, don't get me wrong here). But I think this is really harmful for a modern society.

Anybody that does away with women's choices out of hand, without even listening to them, because they just assume the women must be brain-washed is no progressive or feminist in my eyes. Feel free to go through my post history if you're curious to what some women wearing a face veil have said about their reasons for doing so. Their intelligence, assertiveness and just general "being a capable and adult human being"-ness might surprise you.

Also some of you seem incapable of seeing the difference between being an advocate of listening to the women affected by a ban, respecting them as human being (i.e. not calling them stupid or brainwashed) and supporting their freedom to wear what they want with being a denier of the misogyny behind a face veil or an advocate of wearing one. I am the former, not the latter.

 

[Faith]

I know a lot of Muslims here in Switzerland who are supporting a ban on burkas. This has nothing to do with Islam, it's all about women rights and preventing them from being abused and controlled by men.

We can't allow this to happen again.

 

[mckmas8808]

I know a lot of Muslims here in Switzerland who are supporting a ban on burkas. This has nothing to do with Islam, it's all about women rights and preventing them from being abused and controlled by men.

We can't allow this to happen again.

I'd love to hear from more Burka wearing women first. I feel like we are still trying to push our sensibilities on them.

 

[Shredderi]

If there is a legitimate practical reason for banning clothes like burqa from public then I'm ok with such ban. That is if similar clothes are banned as well. Consistency is the key and if consistency is achieved then public safety reasons would absolutely trump religious practices. But if it's just burqa and not other clothes like it...

 

[Pusherman]

I know a lot of Muslims here in Switzerland who are supporting a ban on burkas. This has nothing to do with Islam, it's all about women rights and preventing them from being abused and controlled by men.

We can't allow this to happen again.

You do understand that those women pictured from 1970 lived under a horribly oppressive regime, right? The Iranians didn't have a popular uprising for nothing and while that doesn't mean that the current situation is not also oppressive, the fact that you don't understand that important historical context, that ever important intersectional understanding, tells me that you're not coming from a very informed position when it comes the a face veil ban and that you're also not primarily moved by a genuine concern for the women involved. No one that actually cares for those women would use the fucking Shah period as an example of when things were right.

 

[Messofanego]

You do understand that those women pictured from 1970 lived under a horribly oppressive regime, right? The Iranians didn't have a popular uprising for nothing and while that doesn't mean that the current situation is not also oppressive, the fact that you don't understand that important historical context, that ever important intersectional understanding, tells me that you're not coming from a very informed position when it comes the a face veil ban and that you're also not primarily moved by a genuine concern for the women involved. No one that actually cares for those women would use the fucking Shah period as an example of when things were right.

The girls are in skirts so that looks nicer to me as a heterosexual male, forget any of the historical context! lol

 

[EGOMON]

Islam didn't mandate women to cover their face I don't why they even do it

 

[Pusherman]

The girls are in skirts so that looks nicer to me as a heterosexual male, forget any of the historical context! lol

You should see how many women just went naked in SAVAK's secret prisons. How modern!

 

[bobeth]

Who gets to decide she's brainwashed?

Show me a single man wearing this, just because he feels like it..

 

[mckmas8808]

The girls are in skirts so that looks nicer to me as a heterosexual male, forget any of the historical context! lol

This is the bottom line for some guys when they see this picture.

Show me a single man wearing this, just because he feels like it..

Show me a single man wearing this on their head at their wedding.

 

[bobeth]

This is the bottom line for some guys when they see this picture.



Show me a single man wearing this on their head at their wedding.

Are you serious? If that's anywhere near something comparable in your head, there is no arguing with you. Have a good life, in whatever reality you live in.

 

[Pusherman]

Show me a single man wearing this, just because he feels like it..

In Tuareg society men wear veils instead of women. Now that's one small North African tribal society but then again, and I've made this comparison before, plastic surgery is also mostly done to women. Women make up close to 80-99% (p.11) of customers for most procedures. Obviously this is tied to our misogynist history of sexually objectifying the female body. Does this mean women cannot decide for themselves whether to have plastic surgery or not?

 

[Soph]

Why are you making this bad comparison?

I'm not making a comparison, I'm showing why his reasoning is faulty.

If you cannot see the differences between Nazi uniforms and face veils, however, I just want to point out that Nazi uniforms aren't banned in most place and that I personally would never support a ban on Nazi uniforms. So your comparison is moot either way.

Wasn't there a thread full of outrage earlier on Neogaf about some Japanese popband showing up in such costumes? Anyhow, as stated above, it's not a comparison, its a mirror being held up to point out out faulty logic, with taking the examples to the extremes.

Anybody that does away with women's choices out of hand, without even listening to them, because they just assume the women must be brain-washed is no progressive or feminist in my eyes. Feel free to go through my post history if you're curious to what some women wearing a face veil have said about their reasons for doing so. Their intelligence, assertiveness and just general "being a capable and adult human being"-ness might surprise you.

I'm on your side, I oppose the ban, but for other reasons. Namely, because it's done out of fear, instead out of wanting to help.

Also some of you seem incapable of seeing the difference between being an advocate of listening to the women affected by a ban, respecting them as human being (i.e. not calling them stupid or brainwashed) and supporting their freedom to wear what they want with being a denier of the misogyny behind a face veil or an advocate of wearing one. I am the former, not the latter.

I take it this is not aimed at me, looking at my past posts in this topic/. Yes we should listen, but no it's not the only thing we should take into account.

 

[Pusherman]

I'm not making a comparison, I'm showing why his reasoning is faulty.

Wasn't there a thread full of outrage earlier on Neogaf about some Japanese popband showing up in such costumes? Anyhow, as stated above, it's not a comparison, its a mirror being held up to point out out faulty logic, with taking the examples to the extremes.

I'm on your side, I oppose the ban, but for other reasons. Namely, because it's done out of fear, instead out of wanting to help.

I take it this is not aimed at me, looking at my past posts in this topic/. Yes we should listen, but no it's not the only thing we should take into account.

It wasn't aimed at you and I'm glad you oppose the ban but I still have to ask, why the hesitation to be primarily motivated in your opposition by the women affected by the ban? On the one hand, there are demonstrably intelligent women defending their right to wear a face veil who deserve to be listened to and on the other hand, if you do belief there to be a group of unheard women forced to wear a face veil who can't speak out (not an unreasonable assumption by any means) you have to admit that a ban would be the absolute worst way of helping them.

It is possible to advocate for a ban because of cultural reasons (it's not western) or security reasons (though I would seriously question the validity of those security concerns) but I fundamentally oppose those reasons to begin with. Those reasons are neither progressive nor feminist and therefore not even worth considering, imo. The only reason to ban the face veil I have any sympathy for is a genuine concern for those women and I just can't understand how anyone could be motivated by that but then show so little respect for face veil wearing women and so little interest in getting to know or listen to them. It just does not compute for me.

That last paragraph wasn't aimed at you by the way but just me trying to explain why I am so baffled by what seems to be the majority opinion on this topic on what is usually a pretty progressive and liberal forum.

 

[Audioboxer]

I know a lot of Muslims here in Switzerland who are supporting a ban on burkas. This has nothing to do with Islam, it's all about women rights and preventing them from being abused and controlled by men.

We can't allow this to happen again.

Yeah, some seem to not even know where the roots of things like the burqa come from. Oppression introduced by Islamisation/men wanting to control women. Hence why the burqa is so loaded, it's not just a piece of clothing.

Are you serious? If that's anywhere near something comparable in your head, there is no arguing with you. Have a good life, in whatever reality you live in.

Give up discussing the comparisons to a wedding veil, they are that outrageous they don't even deserve debate. In fact, there is always so many ludicrous comparisons of the burqa done by men in the ever on-going desperation to say "but think about the women! I'm sure they just need asked about how much they love it!". Some just cannot start to dismantle or let go of control they want to have over women, or the defence of other men having control over women. I understand there is always debate and/or concern around things getting banned, but you cannot say we haven't been trying for years to phase out things like this more naturally. We have. They haven't been working that great so the decision makers in charge of countries are turning to things like bans to try and force society into an era 2017+ should be proud of.

The very first post I made in this thread I did offer some words about how education does come first, but in most countries we have tried. The men are just that controlling of the women, education just isn't going to pierce the forcefield of oppression. It's probably going to be a case of needing to end up going after the men for trying to force banned clothing on their partners, in some sort of legal abuse case.

 

[Bruce Springsteen]

fyi this is a burqa

I'm fine with banning this

Yup, have no problem with this

 

[Gutek]

The girls are in skirts so that looks nicer to me as a heterosexual male, forget any of the historical context! lol

The mental gymnastics on display in that post are gold medal worthy.

 

[daviyoung]

Show me a single man wearing this on their head at their wedding.

<snip>

not many people wear those every time they leave the house

 

[Audioboxer]

Morocco (a muslim country) has also banned the burka by the way.
This medieval item of clothing has NO place in a free and integrated western society.

Look at videos of fleeing ISIS terrorists caught disguised in Burkas and tell me this is not a security issue.

Ironically enough there were some reports about how ISIS had banned the burqa in a certain area because they were attacked ~ http://www.ibtimes.com/isis-bans-burqas-islamic-state-deems-hijab-security-problem-iraq-2411854

The Islamic State group has reportedly banned women from wearing a burka, a veil that covers the entire face, as a security precaution in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul. The alleged new rule is striking in part because the militant group also known as ISIS has beaten and killed women in the past for refusing to wear the conservative garment.

Militant leaders banned burqas after a group of veiled women carried out attacks against several ISIS commanders, according to media reports Tuesday. Women wearing burqas will no longer be allowed to enter buildings in Mosul, an ISIS stronghold, while wearing the full-body covering. Instead, they must wear gloves and gauze to cover their eyes. ISIS' morality police will continue to require women to wear the burqa outside of Mosul's new security rule, the Jerusalem Post reported.

As "funny" as that is, they, and other men, on a 'global scale' still use it to oppress women. As above it seemingly got replaced by gloves and gauze...

So you clearly have no idea why women are asked to wear head coverings when it comes to the Abrahamic religions do you?

The Koran does not ask for the face to be covered. It's not splitting ends, if you want to argue religious grounds, then differentiating a head piece from a face veil is very much an important thing to do.

 

[mckmas8808]

Are you serious? If that's anywhere near something comparable in your head, there is no arguing with you. Have a good life, in whatever reality you live in.

So you clearly have no idea why women are asked to wear head coverings when it comes to the Abrahamic religions do you?

Give up discussing the comparisons to a wedding veil, they are that outrageous they don't even deserve debate. In fact, there is always so many ludicrous comparisons of the burqa done by men in the ever on-going desperation to say "but think about the women! I'm sure they just need asked about how much they love it!". Some just cannot start to dismantle or let go of control they want to have over women, or the defence of other men having control over women. I understand there is always debate and/or concern around things getting banned, but you cannot say we haven't been trying for years to phase out things like this more naturally. We have. They haven't been working that great so the decision makers in charge of countries are turning to things like bans to try and force society into an era 2017+ should be proud of.

1 Corinthians 11:4, 5
Every man who prays or prophesies with something on his head shames his head; 5 but every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered shames her head, for it is one and the same as if she were a woman with a shaved head.​

Please understand that this stuff is scriptural to a degree. Some groups of people have taken that and added on to it, but it's not outrageous to compare it to a wedding veil.

 

[daviyoung]

So you clearly have no idea why women are asked to wear head coverings when it comes to the Abrahamic religions do you?

and you clearly have no idea what the difference is between a wedding veil and burka

 

[bobeth]

So you clearly have no idea why women are asked to wear head coverings when it comes to the Abrahamic religions do you?

You clearly do not understand it does not matter what any religion "asks", do you?

 

[mckmas8808]

and you clearly have no idea what the difference is between a wedding veil and burka

There is a huge difference between the two. They aren't the same at this point in time. But my point in bringing up the wedding veil is to express that it's roots are planted in religious teachings.

You clearly do not understand it does not matter what any religion "asks", do you?

Excuse me but that does matter. If a country is run by its religion, instead of separating it from the government like America does (sort of), then it completely matters what the religious scriptures say and how people interrupt them.

 

[bobeth]

Excuse me but that does matter. If a country is run by its religion, instead of separating it from the government like America does (sort of), then it completely matters what the religious scriptures say and how people interrupt them.

You are completely right.. It will remain a universal problem as long as mankind will accept to be ruled by a fantasy, instead of believing in its own potential. My apologies.

 

[Ashes]

Show me a single man wearing this, just because he feels like it..

Oh so you get to decide.

 

[bobeth]

Oh so you get to decide.

Clearly free will is a concept you're not comfortable with, or actually fully understand. No biggie, you'll get there! I hope!

 

[Ashes]

Clearly free will is a concept you're not comfortable with, or actually fully understand. No biggie, you'll get there! I hope!

You're interested in free will. Yet you're demanding women I know who wear burkas to stop it already. And get with the freedom program.

 

[bobeth]

You're interested in free will. Yet you're demanding women I know who wear burkas to stop it already. And get with the freedom program.

See what I mean about your twisted perception of free will? You don't even see how idiotic what you just typed is.

You accuse me of demanding anything, me, a poor lonely soul, and you fail to mention what more than a thousand years of islam, and millions of men, have "demanded" of their women. That's strange...

 

[Darth Ghandi]

In typical western manner many will get all worked up regarding a segment of the population of 150 women.

It is faux outrage and nothing else.

 

[Ashes]

See what I mean about your twisted perception of free will? You don't even see how idiotic what you just typed is.

Elaborate.

 

[TTOOLL]

Good, very good.

 

[bobeth]

Elaborate.

Can't and won't, I have to go to work. But here's something that will surely give you a solid hard-on; it's so cold outside I will have to cover my face! Take it easy buddy!

 

[Ashes]

Can't and won't, I have to go to work. But here's something that will surely give you a solid hard-on; it's so cold outside I will have to cover my face! Take it easy buddy!

Blimey.

 

[Nilaul]

I think burqas are oppressive to women and that they shouldn't be enfored anywhere by any religion and frankly they should be banned.

 

[KahooTs]

And eagerly do the people embrace authoritarianism. I do not agree with what you wear, and I will compromise my basic principles to ensure you can not, said the once liberal democracy.

 

[ClosingADoor]

In typical western manner many will get all worked up regarding a segment of the population of 150 women.

It is faux outrage and nothing else.

I do think it fits into the wider discussion of what we expect people who come to another country and culture - and their descendants - to do, and if we should allow certain changes to the values we have set for ourselves. Thing is, here two sets of values conflict: the one to choose what you wear, and the one to not have someone mandate what you wear. Which is a conflict that will never be resolved.

I am of the opinion that the burqa and what is stands for conflicts with women's rights. But banning it conflicts with religious rights, but I think those are less important in this instance.

It's also not really "typical western manner". Whole countries get upset about cartoons or turning off a speaker, so let's not pretend this is something unique to the west.

As for the people discussing scripture, that really has nothing to do with whether the ban is right or not. A religious text holds zero value and is purely what you personally want to follow. I do not have to take that into account when the things said conflict with the things I feel are right. Religious texts say a lot of disgusting things.

And eagerly do the people embrace authoritarianism. I do not agree with what you wear, and I will compromise my basic principles to ensure you can not, said the once liberal democracy.

France, Netherlands and Belgium, the poster boys of authoritarianism... banning something does not automatically make it authoritarian. We ban stuff all the time that some people think should not be banned.

 

[KahooTs]

France, Netherlands and Belgium, the poster boys of authoritarianism... banning something does not automatically make it authoritarian. We ban stuff all the time that some people think should not be banned.

What? This is authoritarian, literally, this is what the word fucking means.

 

[ClosingADoor]

What? This is authoritarian, literally, this is what the word fucking means.

Would you say anything being banned qualifies as authoritarian then? I'd say some bans are actually needed and do a lot of good.

 

[Ashes]

I am of the opinion that the burqa and what is stands for conflicts with women's rights. But banning it conflicts with religious rights, but I think those are less important in this instance.

Any specific body - be they government or religion - that tells a woman how she is expected to dress falls under women's rights.

All I see is one body being replaced by another.

 

[Majukun]

looks like the foolish belief that you can just force change is still strong. like people are gonna abandon their culture and beliefs just because you try to force them to do so.
this is exactly the opposite of favoring integration.

 

[cwmartin]

looks like the foolish belief that you can just force change is still strong. like people are gonna abandon their culture and beliefs just because you try to force them to do so.
this is exactly the opposite of favoring integration.

This seems like a decent compromise to me. Head scarves, head coverings, are not illegal in Austria. Obscuring your entire face with an added veil is banned. This is true in most places.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Any specific body - be they government or religion - that tells a woman how she is expected to dress falls under women's rights.

All I see is one body being replaced by another.

I see it differently and feel standing up to these culturally and religiously enforced ways of isolating a women from society is an important thing for a progressive nation, and is a good thing to do in regards to women's rights. Not everyone will agree of course, and that's OK also.

looks like the foolish belief that you can just force change is still strong. like people are gonna abandon their culture and beliefs just because you try to force them to do so.
this is exactly the opposite of favoring integration.

The idea that we just need to wait X amount of generations and then things surely will change is also foolish.

 

[Ashes]

I see it differently and feel standing up to these culturally and religiously enforced ways of isolating a women from society is an important thing for a progressive nation, and is a good thing to do in regards to women's rights. Not everyone will agree of course, and that's OK also.

How is it progressive when we don't allow a woman to choose how she interprets history?

My views on the burka perhaps correlate to yours. But I don't understand how you fail to put yourself in the shoes of a woman who would choose to wear a burka or niqab.

Do you not think they are capable of reason or intellectual engagement? I've spoken to many such people and they seem very eloquent regardless of our differences in opinion. They do not want their rights infringed upon. You get to wake up in the morning and decide what you wear. They simply want that same right.

 

[KahooTs]

Would you say anything being banned qualifies as authoritarian then? I'd say some bans are actually needed and do a lot of good.

No, often but no not always, the term personal freedom isn't all encompassing, it ends where it impacts another for instance.

What one chooses to wear generally falls under the umbrella of personal freedom, particularly that of freedom of expression.

 

[Majukun]

The idea that we just need to wait X amount of generations and then things surely will change is also foolish.

change must come from those cultures themselves,not be imposed from the outside,things don't work that way,much like you and everyone else in this thread would stick to his/her beliefs even if they were suddenly banned by the state.

 

[Soldiussnaku]

As a devout muslim I'm damn glad they banned nonsense like the burqa, it's a man made, fairly modern way of controlling women and nothing else. There is zero Islamic scripture, rule, law or Qu'ranic I have read so far that makes it part of the relion over a billion people belong to.

 

[mckmas8808]

This seems like a decent compromise to me. Head scarves, head coverings, are not illegal in Austria. Obscuring your entire face with an added veil is banned. This is true in most places.

Is this banned in Austria?

 

[Audioboxer]

So you clearly have no idea why women are asked to wear head coverings when it comes to the Abrahamic religions do you?

1 Corinthians 11:4, 5
Every man who prays or prophesies with something on his head shames his head; 5 but every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered shames her head, for it is one and the same as if she were a woman with a shaved head.​

Please understand that this stuff is scriptural to a degree. Some groups of people have taken that and added on to it, but it's not outrageous to compare it to a wedding veil.

The burqa, or face veil, is not a requirement in the Koran no matter how hard you try to push for it. It is not scriptural. You have Muslims in this topic telling you that.