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[ClosingADoor]

This "who cares" nonsense again. I care. Muslims care. Peoplr who know the difference between the different clothings care. 100s of millions of women wear Burqa. Only a small percentage out of those wear the veil. You dont care because you dont wear any of those.

How come pretty much 99% of the world calls it a burqa, but somehow it makes a big difference because you call it something different?

It is also the media that calls it that. The actual law will probably state something like "face covering veil" or another description.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

This "who cares" nonsense again. I care. Muslims care. Peoplr who know the difference between the different clothings care. 100s of millions of women wear Burqa. Only a small percentage out of those wear the veil. You dont care because you dont wear any of those.

Are you still harping on about this semantical nonsense?

When people talk about a burqa ban they are talking about banning this

No, "100s of millions of women" do not wear this.

Enough with the terminology hair splitting already.

 

[sangreal]

We get it, apparently we, and the entirety of European political discussions about this topic, are all wrong about what burqa means. We mean the "faceveil-thing", whatever you call it.

The Burkini bans in France had nothing to do with veils, so it is definitely not the entirety of European political discussions about this topic

 

[psychowave]

And those women support women's oppression by doing so. That they are Muslim women themselves has no bearing on that.

"The oppressor would not be so strong if he did not have accomplices among the oppressed themselves".

 

[SlimySnake]

This "who cares" nonsense again. I care. Muslims care. Peoplr who know the difference between the different clothings care. 100s of millions of women wear Burqa. Only a small percentage out of those wear the veil. You dont care because you dont wear any of those.

This is a ban on the full-face veil as reported by the newspaper. Politico added the bit about the burqa. Ultimately, it doesnt matter what you call it, if Austria bans all forms of hijab then you would have an argument.

Right now, and dont take this the wrong way, you are just coming across as that crazy muslim who is defending this backward religious practice.

 

[RustyNails]

Are you still harping on about this semantical nonsense?

When people talk about a burqa ban they are talking about banning this


No, "100s of millions of women" do not wear this.

Enough with the terminology hair splitting already.

I actually agree. 100s of millions of women do not wear that. That is why we should be careful when we say what we're banning, because if you call it Burqa, it also includes Abayas, even the trendy ones I posted. Politico calls it Burqa and runs with it. We cant just "know" they're talking about Chadors, and assume everyone else throwing a hissy fit is pissing at the wrong tree. I'm actually glad to learn Austria legislation doesn't and mentions Niqab in specificity.

 

[RustyNails]

Right now, and dont take this the wrong way, you are just coming across as that crazy muslim who is defending this backward religious practice.

Yeah, I'm a crazy Muslim because I like to clarify what the words mean. How should I take this in a "good" way?

 

[BadWolf]

fyi this is a burqa

I'm fine with banning this

Yeah, I'm all for it as well.

Fuck stuff like this.

 

[Metrotab]

I actually agree. 100s of millions of women do not wear that. That is why we should be careful when we say what we're banning, because if you call it Burqa, it also includes Abayas, even the trendy ones I posted. Politico calls it Burqa and runs with it. We cant just "know" they're talking about Chadors, and assume everyone else throwing a hissy fit is pissing at the wrong tree. I'm actually glad to learn Austria legislation doesn't and mentions Niqab in specificity.

Nobody in Europe knows what abayas and chadors are. People aren't interested in those types of clothing. They are interested in the "face-veil thing". We call them burqas because that's what I see when I google burqa.

Yeah, I'm a crazy Muslim because I like to clarify what the words mean. How should I take this in a "good" way?

Because it looks like you're trying to obfuscate a discussion by bringing in needless terminological arguments.

I don't think you're doing so, but your posts aren't generally helpful.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Are you still harping on about this semantical nonsense?

I actually agree. 100s of millions of women do not wear that. That is why we should be careful when we say what we're banning, because if you call it Burqa, it also includes Abayas, even the trendy ones I posted. Politico calls it Burqa and runs with it. We cant just "know" they're talking about Chadors, and assume everyone else throwing a hissy fit is pissing at the wrong tree. I'm actually glad to learn Austria legislation doesn't and mentions Niqab in specificity.

That's a yes, then. All righty.

 

[SlimySnake]

Yeah, I'm a crazy Muslim because I like to clarify what the words mean. How should I take this in a "good" way?

Is that what you are trying to do? Clarifying? Then why are you getting into arguments with dozens of people at once?

And I guess the broader point is, who in this thread about a full-face veil ban cares what the right term is? We are all discussing the full-face ban and you even have pics of said veil on the very first page. So why is it important to derail the thread with an argument about what the right terminology is?

 

[Pusherman]

And those women support women's oppression by doing so. That they are Muslim women themselves has no bearing on that.

How are they doing that? A woman living in Europe or North-America deciding for herself, sometimes in direct opposition to her family and surroundings, to wear a face-veil is supporting women's oppression how exactly? Her decision has nothing to do with women living abroad. It has nothing to do with other women, muslim or otherwise, in her own country. It is purely a personal decision. One based in a religious and cultural practice many would call misogynist but is that really enough to be a supporter of women's oppression? I see people make decisions that I think support a culture or movement I find distasteful or even oppressive plenty of times. That happens to everyone. My parents see Nicki Minaj and think she's hurting women by promoting the sexual objectification of the female body. I don't necessarily believe that's the case but they have a right to think so. What they can't do, at least in my opinion, is restrict Minaj's freedom of expression based on their own personal beliefs. Similarly, we shouldn't do that to conservative muslim women wearing a face-veil.

Yeah, I'm a crazy Muslim because I like to clarify what the words mean. How should I take this in a "good" way?

The ban clearly states it is against full-face veils. Even though I get where you're coming from I think we all know what's up for discussion in this thread.

 

[Dude Abides]

I'm amused when I see a woman wearing the one that shows only the eyes, but she's got a bunch of eye makeup on.

 

[XOMTOR]

Good riddance. Masks and face coverings are illegal in most countries while out in public for practical reasons. Religious garments should not be exempt from this.

I can wear a balaclava while outdoors here in Canada if the weather permits it but if I wear one walking around in the summer, you can bet I'll have a police cruiser rolling up to me in no time. Same for entering any public buildings; no masks or face coverings are permitted. Oh and you need to wear shoes and a shirt as well

 

[mckmas8808]

As I mentioned in another thread where this subject came up, I'm against the use of the burqa as I believe it is oppressive to women, but I don't think foreign countries banning it is the way to liberate these women.

How do you know these women didn't want to live like this? Who are you to say they shouldn't assume this life?

 

[crustchump]

Is that what you are trying to do? Clarifying? Then why are you getting into arguments with dozens of people at once?

And I guess the broader point is, who in this thread about a full-face veil ban cares what the right term is? We are all discussing the full-face ban and you even have pics of said veil on the very first page. So why is it important to derail the thread with an argument about what the right terminology is?

probably because this ban is targeted against muslim women and is supported by groups of people who oftentimes don't even have a clue about the cultural and religious practices of the women they are criticizing. it's important to know the right term for something that you are supposedly against, because ignorance of the complexities of muslim culture is why we get these foolish islamophobic policies in the first place.

 

[psychowave]

How do you know these women didn't want to live like this? Who are you to say they shouldn't assume this life?

It's interesting how men never choose to live like this, since it's apparently such a free and valid choice.

 

[Pusherman]

It's interesting how men never choose to live like this, since it's apparently such a free and valid choice.

Is plastic surgery a valid choice despite it being overwhelmingly done by women (80-99% for most procedures) and clearly tied to the historical oppression and sexual objectification of women?

Spoiler

We're also repeating the same few arguments over and over.

 

[mckmas8808]

It's interesting how men never choose to live like this, since it's apparently such a free and valid choice.

You clearly don't understand the religious or cultural reason why it's done then. They have the "cover up and don't flaunt what you have" approach to what women should wear in public. While I think it's crazy, I can't tell a Muslim women that believes in her faith to that degree that she needs to stop believing the religious beliefs that she was told.

It's not your place to tell someone else (who is not harming themselves) what they need to wear in public.

 

[crustchump]

if anyone is curious what some muslim women actually have to say regarding wearing the niqab, this is a good article https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/the-great-niqab-debate

obviously not every muslim woman agrees with the women in this article, but i think it does a good job of framing this issue as one of religious freedom and freedom of expression.

 

[ClosingADoor]

You clearly don't understand the religious or cultural reason why it's done then. They have the "cover up and don't flaunt what you have" approach to what women should wear in public. While I think it's crazy, I can't tell a Muslim women that believes in her faith to that degree that she needs to stop believing the religious beliefs that she was told.

It's not your place to tell someone else (who is not harming themselves) what they need to wear in public.

They can still cover up. This is only about things that hide your total face.

It is not my place personally to tell someone else, you are right about that. It is the place of the government in some cases.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

It's interesting how men never choose to live like this, since it's apparently such a free and valid choice.

Clearly just a fashion choice like skirts and one-piece swimsuits.

Spoiler

/s

 

[shintoki]

No problem here. You can't typically wear a mask around. Religion shouldn't be an exception.

 

[MonsterHunter]

Best place for this worthless 'tradition'

 

[psychowave]

Is plastic surgery a valid choice despite it being overwhelmingly done by women (80-99% for most procedures) and clearly tied to the historical oppression and sexual objectification of women?

Spoiler

We're also repeating the same few arguments over and over.

I'm not sure what you mean by "valid", but I think plastic surgery is a result of patriarchy and I'd prefer if women didn't feel the need to surgically alter their bodies to accept themselves. I wouldn't legally stop other women from doing it, just like I've said I think legally stopping women from wearing the burqa isn't a good idea.

 

[Valhelm]

I'm so conflicted on this issue. The burqa is an objectively oppressive garment, but I'm sure this policy was not made in good faith. Because burqas are nonexistent in Austria, this just amounts to a soft reassertion of white Christian dominance.

Islam in general has some pretty odious characteristics, but it's difficult to have a conversation about this without sidelining or offending many Muslims. And how should we address the perspectives of Muslim feminists who support policies which restrict women? Are their voices more valuable than those of regressive "western" feminists like Christina Hoff Sommers? A fear of mine is that public condemnations of Islam, even by well-intentioned leftists and liberals, can facilitate a xenophobic agenda. At the same time, if we do not address problems within Islam, we let white nationalists monopolize this conversation.

The best option is to allow progressive Muslim feminists to lead this conversation, but the right will disregard their voices regardless.

 

[Relceroi]

There is nothing more humanizing than a human face. Any practice that systematically seeks to cover the face of a human is dehumanizing in and of itself. That the practice only applies to women makes it all the more suspect.

 

[CadetMahoney]

I've seen all these arguments when France banned it in April 2011 and the EU courts upheld then ban again when it was challenged in 2014. I think it's fair to say governments are well within their rights to ban it.

 

[crustchump]

if everyone in this thread cares so much about misogyny and freedom of expression that they think an effective solution to centuries of patriarchal influence on basically every aspect of human institutions is to keep telling women what they can and can't wear, can you please tell me what this ban actually accomplishes other than forcing muslim women to have their lives policed even further?

to me, simply banning an article of clothing that holds religious and cultural significance for many women isn't going to address structural inequality, nor does it really advance the goals of any intersectional feminist movement. let women make the choices they want to make. if your "feminism" doesn't include muslim women who wear niqabs, regardless of their reasons for doing so, then i suggest you might be buying into a relatively xenophobic view of the world.

edit: and honestly i'm sympathetic to people who tell themselves that this ban matters for feminist reasons, but i encourage you to take your thinking one step further. if you are concerned about how misogyny affects the day-to-day lives of women across the world, then realize that we are all living in this atmosphere of discrimination and political machismo. yes, some women wear the niqab as a choice, some wear it as a necessary part of the manner in which they navigate their lives, and some feel it is a regressive cultural practice that needs to be changed. how does the austrian government deciding to criminalize those who wear full-face veils do anything to address the issues that you claim to care about as opposed to just opening up even further avenues of discrimination?

 

[Pusherman]

I'm not sure what you mean by "valid", but I think plastic surgery is a result of patriarchy and I'd prefer if women didn't feel the need to surgically alter their bodies to accept themselves. I wouldn't legally stop other women from doing it, just like I've said I think legally stopping women from wearing the burqa isn't a good idea.

But that's what we're discussing here. Nobody is arguing in favor of a face-veil, saying it's a good or feminist tradition. We're saying the freely made decision of someone to wear a face-veil should be respected. So we're basically in agreement.

 

[JordanN]

if everyone in this thread cares so much about misogyny and freedom of expression that they think an effective solution to centuries of patriarchal influence on basically every aspect of human institutions is to keep telling women what they can and can't wear, can you please tell me what this ban actually accomplishes other than forcing muslim women to have their lives policed even further?

I don't think it's a terrible thing to show your face to the public. As I said last page, why hide it? What's the value in it?

 

[mckmas8808]

I'm not sure what you mean by "valid", but I think plastic surgery is a result of patriarchy and I'd prefer if women didn't feel the need to surgically alter their bodies to accept themselves. I wouldn't legally stop other women from doing it, just like I've said I think legally stopping women from wearing the burqa isn't a good idea.

Have you ever taken it into consideration that women may want to surgically alter their bodies for the same reason that men want to make more money? I don't see it as a negative unless someone takes it too far.

 

[crustchump]

I don't think it's a terrible thing to show your face to the public. As I said last page, why hide it? What's the value in it?

great question, it's confusing to me why people would do things i personally wouldn't do sometimes. if you have the time, here's an article that interviews some women on their feelings about wearing the niqab: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/the-great-niqab-debate

you might be surprised to find that some women choose not to wear the niqab all the time BECAUSE of the disgust and scrutiny they feel from others simply for making the decision to wear it. i personally think that the feelings of the women in this article are just as valid as those who make the personal choice not to cover their faces.

edited for clarity

 

[perfectchaos007]

Best place for this worthless 'tradition'

What an empowering photo!

 

[nkarafo]

fyi this is a burqa

I'm fine with banning this

I'm fine with this too. Covering your face like this is also a security concern in some spaces.

 

[psychowave]

Have you ever taken it into consideration that women may want to surgically alter their bodies for the same reason that men want to make more money? I don't see it as a negative unless someone takes it too far.

Yes, I've taken many points into consideration, and I believe that women are worth more than what their bodies look like and men are worth more than the amount of money they possess.

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

I've seen all these arguments when France banned it in April 2011 and the EU courts upheld then ban again when it was challenged in 2014. I think it's fair to say governments are well within their rights to ban it.

if anything it's mostly just a practical question of allowing public servants and / or security personnel (in say, an airport) to see a person's face and thereby be able to verify identity and / or intent, not so much any other mentioned motive.

I've also never seen anyone wear the whole set, nor would any official recognize the specific clothing, just the fact that the face is covered or that the face is not covered. That's it really.

 

[Portugeezer]

I'm OK with this

 

[jett]

Best place for this worthless 'tradition'

Nothing more needs to be said.

 

[Spieler Eins]

We also banned nazi uniforms and symbols. The people who'd "voluntarily" want to be associated with such traditions will have to survive somehow else.

 

[raindoc]

This ban is nothing but a pr-stunt, mainly by the conservative party, to appeal to the "swing-voters" that drift towards the right-wing FPÖ. It was part of a deal the two ruling parties - socialists and conservatives - negotiated to bring the government back on track and prevent reelections. it has nothing to do with a stricter separation of church and state (crucifixes are still hanging in all/most classrooms of public schools) or security reasons. there are almost no "burqa-carriers" in austria - when I lived in Graz, the 2nd biggest city, I saw one or two each week... and I lived in that part of town that is the hotspot for immigrants.
i also used to live in london and worked in the east end for a while. every sunny day, with the street market open I'd leave the tube to enter a street full of burqa-(or whatever you call the version that doesn't use a veil but a ninja-slot for the eyes)-wearing women. honestly, it was weird at first (because almost noone wears them in austria!) but I never felt unsafe and to my knowledge no burqa-wearing woman has used her "disguise" to commit an act of terrorism in the UK yet.
AFAIK the streets in front of the royal london hospital are still roaming with burqas till this day - and rightfully so.

I do believe the world would be a better place if everyone kept their religious symbols covered and prayed at home without preaching in public, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.
Banning a piece of clothing does not ban terrorism and Kurz & Co know that. In it's core this is not a ban targeting muslim women, but swing-voters leaning towards the right.

 

[Gutek]

Best place for this worthless 'tradition'

Beautiful.

 

[Raven117]

Not good.

People should be able to wear whatever they want. Period.

 

[T.O.P]

Best place for this worthless 'tradition'

<3

 

[nynt9]

What is always interesting to me about most muslims I encounter online is that (having been one formerly) I almost never see them go "you know what, this aspect of our faith may be problematic and it needs reform. I think the ban is wrong but burqas are also clearly not required by the Koran and requiring women to wear them is oppressive, and we should address what aspects of our culture makes women feel that they need to do this". It's almost always do or die, full on defense against every criticism. I was also part of this cult/tribe mentality once and it is toxic. The way to reform is through discussion of errors and how to fix them, not through blanket opposition. If this was something in the book I'd be more sympathetic to the discussion but there is no sura that actually prescribes this. It's just cultural oppression that hides under the shadow of religious tolerance.

 

[Rentahamster]

So why is it important to derail the thread with an argument about what the right terminology is?

To be fair, in any debate, it is usually a good thing to be on the same page for terms and definitions. On the other hand, Rusty, while I give you the benefit of the doubt that you care about correct terminology and cultural respect, your writing does come off a little as trying to deflect from the real debate by focusing so much on it.

 

[Rentahamster]

I'm amused when I see a woman wearing the one that shows only the eyes, but she's got a bunch of eye makeup on.

I feel like it's derived from the same area of the human psyche that develops bukkake from censored Japanese porn lol.

 

[Kater]

This ban is nothing but a pr-stunt, mainly by the conservative party, to appeal to the "swing-voters" that drift towards the right-wing FPÖ. It was part of a deal the two ruling parties - socialists and conservatives - negotiated to bring the government back on track and prevent reelections. it has nothing to do with a stricter separation of church and state (crucifixes are still hanging in all/most classrooms of public schools) or security reasons. there are almost no "burqa-carriers" in austria - when I lived in Graz, the 2nd biggest city, I saw one or two each week... and I lived in that part of town that is the hotspot for immigrants.
i also used to live in london and worked in the east end for a while. every sunny day, with the street market open I'd leave the tube to enter a street full of burqa-(or whatever you call the version that doesn't use a veil but a ninja-slot for the eyes)-wearing women. honestly, it was weird at first (because almost noone wears them in austria!) but I never felt unsafe and to my knowledge no burqa-wearing woman has used her "disguise" to commit an act of terrorism in the UK yet.
AFAIK the streets in front of the royal london hospital are still roaming with burqas till this day - and rightfully so.

I do believe the world would be a better place if everyone kept their religious symbols covered and prayed at home without preaching in public, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.
Banning a piece of clothing does not ban terrorism and Kurz & Co know that. In it's core this is not a ban targeting muslim women, but swing-voters leaning towards the right.

Well said. I'm wondering if Kickl has already come up with a new, funky campaign slogan for this "victory" over the immigrants. -.-

 

[KillGore]

Good

Anything that covers up your face in public makes me uncomfortable. The most people should get away with is head scarf like how most nuns tend to dress. But your face should be visible for ease of identification at any time.

Also this

 

[Metrotab]

Best place for this worthless 'tradition'

What a great photograph.