snail_maze
Member
Yeah, Lunacek putting blame on Pilz for the current 3,9% and not her own party doesn't make it look much better either
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Austrian Elections 2017 |OT| Voting right wing parties into parliament since 1949
- Thread starter Westbahnhof
- Start date
Yeah, Lunacek putting blame on Pilz for the current 3,9% and not her own party doesn't make it look much better either
Red Arremer
Member
Yeah.
It wasn't his decision to leave the Greens, and he caught a lot of people whom the Greens alienated and would have otherwise likely stayed at home because of the lack of representation, as well as protest voters who didn't want to risk voting for black/blue.
It also speaks massively about their blunder given the fact they lost in even their strongest disctricts in Vienna.
I'm sad the Greens are hanging on a very fine string right now and potentially aren't going to make it into parliament, because I think that their presence will be lost. We need a strong opposition during this trying time, and without the Greens, that opposition is nothing but weaker.
And I say this as someone who left the Green party as well and went over to Pilz.
snail_maze
Member
Eh, I voted for Pilz and I wouldn't mind if the Greens don't make it in. Instead I hope a new party will spring from the current Pilz group which absorbs much of the more sensible elements of the Greens. They are simply too caught up in their own echo chamber to be of much use for anyone in their current state
Edit: FPÖ strongest party in the youngest age group (until 29 yrs)...damn...
Yeah, the future is grim.
Red Arremer
Member
The Greens plummeting down from 12% to 4% and barely scraping by to get into parliament would've gotten the point across just as well.
Yes, the party completely imploded in on itself, but I would prefer a parliament with weak and useless Greens than those seats going to FPÖVP.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I'm really curious where these people are, I don't know Kurz or FPÖ voters my age at all.
That said I'm in Vienna which is majorly red but I spent today playing games in a store of people I'm only faintly acquainted with and none of them were happy about the result.
That said I'm in Vienna which is majorly red but I spent today playing games in a store of people I'm only faintly acquainted with and none of them were happy about the result.
All your apocalyptic comments here. The future is not grim, i think you have to try to get out from a stagnating economy. With nothing changing, there's nothing changing. Let's see where we get from here
fabricated backlash
Member
The blue rat catchers are out in full force.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Change for the sake of change isn't good. Most of us are worried things will change for the worse.
Red Arremer
Member
But... The Austrian economy has grown?
To the right.
Won't believe any of this. Mostly, ÖVP or FPÖ voters will get considered dumb or something like this again. Like it's in nearly every academic institution. It's simply wrong, but with such a choice you get shut down pretty quick actually.
That said, i was nearly shocked how many students in my reach are happy that Die Grünen lost so much. It really colored me surprised.
Yeah, but you're all just worried. There are people that live well of the last years of ÖVP and SPÖ and many that are not. Or do you think people would like a change if everything fits nicely together? No, it's not that way.
And actually, i live pretty good. I have enough money to live comfortably, even if not really in welfare, but enough to party sometimes, enjoying my hobbies.. There are many people that can't, and i'm still a student. If i lose a bit of my money it wouldn't even be that hard, someone has to give. I'm actually really sorry for old people that worked hard to make education and living how it is to this date possible, and don't get anything in return. Maybe, or hopefully, some younger people voted because they know how bad their parents are doing. I know my mother for example isn't doing that well. So, before i want more stagnating, i would take the risk. But that's just me being me, and you being you. Not a change would also change nothing. Which is good for some, and as we saw, bad for many others. I respect that voters choice completely and i hope for something positive.
Edit:
A growing economy does not mean that everyone receives the same %. Things don't get cheaper - it's the opposite way. Old people that don't have that much money might not be able to afford their living in some years, like they did years ago.
snail_maze
Member
I agree that FPÖ won't find many sympathizers in academic circles, but ÖVP and by extension Neos are fairly common. ÖVP was the strongest party voted for by academics and the largest ÖH group has been the AG for years now. It's fairly natural since their target audience is those with higher incomes.
Austrian economy is growing. Pretty decently even. Also, if you bet on FPÖ to push the economy even more I don't know what to tell you. They are like the most incompetent ones when it comes to economy. I'm really curious what FPÖ proposed measures will help with that. Really curious.
Red Arremer
Member
And you really believe FPÖVP are going to make things better for old and poor people? Have you read their party platforms?
The top 10% is going to amass more than those 2/3s of the wealth they already own.
I saw a very apt analogy on a Der Standard forum post the other day describing what this likely government is going to look like:
A rich business owner, a worker and an immigrant sit at a table that has a dozen cookies on them. The rich man takes 11 and tells the worker "Hey, that immigrant over there wants to take your cookie".
And what proposed measures from the FPÖ and ÖVP programs helps with that?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
The Greens lost almost all their support so that doesn't surprise me at all it's also refelcted among most people I know.
Considering FPO and OVP voters dumb is wrong I just consider them anywhere from ignorant to nazi sympathizers. They can still be good people but they vote for values I cannot tie the two together with.
Economy is not my concern, Austria could do better but also much worse. I'm failry well off and living a comfortable live and this result doesn't have me worried for myself at all.
It's that both OVP and FPO have made it part of the program to make life worse for immigrants and people in need of help not as fortunate as us born in Austria or white Europe. Not to mention their conservative stances on abortion, same-sex marriage and many more.
given their educational backgrounds, I'd say "bauernfänger" is more apt.
have you read ANY of their proposals and policy plans?
How is that going to help your poor old parents?
If anything, it's the exact opposite
I read the same thing the other day! guess it's already making rounds
(because it's fitting)
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
It's a bit of a meme from the US
And what direction do you expect it to change towards with a strong FPÖ?
Red Arremer
Member
Joining the Visegrad group in being a showcase democracy and corruption that would blow various African dictators away.
Quoted for all that quoted me below now. And i don't even feel attacked, but that's just how it is when you voice your opinion in a more conservative way. I say i want a change because i see that it's needed. Those who want rather no change than maybe a more negative outcome will always try to disagree. I voice my opinion, and leftys that always use their common propoganda to shut you down without also something new.
No. In some discussions, i even heard from students that they see the ÖVP more right wing than FPÖ. You always get the same answers from people that can't accept some conservative opinions that aren't nowhere nazism, but just a bit patriotic. ("uhuuuhm, these are nazis now too already, black the new blue, yada yada")
I want the % to get to more than just the ones who are rich already. Those surely want no change and would always voice how much our economy grows. But are the people living better because of this? I don't see it
Is this a quote you got from the old coalition FPÖVP? Because things can always change. Same like the ÖVP does not stand for something it did stand for 5 years ago. Why are people afraid it would be the completely same outcome? It's still better to me to try something different than changing nothing. And there was no party that would've gotten near that change. Maybe Die Grünen was a possibility, before they decided to implode.
We'll see. There are many that only promised, but never served. Single mothers still have to wait for help, what Pilz also said today again.
And i have the privilege to call you ignorant for a change. Because you live good maybe? I would never have the gist to call someone ignorant or a nazi sympathizer over his voice, not over 30 or 25% of votes. But please, if you think everyone of those votes was ignorant or a nazi, go on. That's not my way of a liberal thinking. You actually are close minded that way.
Also, even enough women see abortion and same sex marriage way different. Still enough women that voted for ÖVP and FPÖ. Why you ask? It's still their decision. Die Grünen was actually one of the most prefered parties for women before. Why did that change? And same sex marriage isn't even nowhere near important as helping people that are poor, but go on. That's actually the parties programm that Lunacek voiced and that got her to the place where she is now.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
More racism, more nationalism, more intolerance, more anti-intellectualism?
What is it?
I really have a hard time finding anything positive about the FPÖ...
Green Yoshi
Member
Stagnating economy? What are you talking about?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ic-growth-forecasts-for-austria-idUSKBN19K0YM
Yeah, my wording here is definitely wrong. You would get that i mean it in a sense of living if you read my other posts. Still, the raised % of income for old people isn't nearly enough for example.
Edit:
Again, the same old things everyone is telling about FPÖ for example.
Just because FPÖ or ÖVP are on top, does not mean everyone is now allowed to be a racist, a nazi, an intolerant fool or something else. It's just about serving the people that already live in Austria first, before failing on trying to help others. If you look in immigration camps where i even helped voluntarily, you would know what i mean. We have enough poor, old and young people without a job.
snail_maze
Member
Well, it's not really surprising that you will find students who have those opinions, but it will prob differ strongly depending on the university you are at or between individual studies. I'm a Business Administration student and ÖVP/Neos or AG (depending on what was being voted on) was very common, if not the majority. Talking to students of other faculties I could also see the attitudes you are talking about, but again, a majority of academics voted centre-right
Edit:
As someone who is going to rent a new place next week I have to give them props for their proposal which lead to the abolishment of the Mietvertrags Vergebührung this week
Red Arremer
Member
Again, have you read what their proposals are?
Hartz IV for Austria, which will lead to the working poor, which will lead to even more poor pensioners. Reduction of workers' rights and protections. Cuts into social welfare, including pensions. Landlords acquiring more rights while renters will lose more protection.
Also let's not forget many of the funding organisations of the ÖVP are demanding 12-hour work days/60-hour work weeks among other things.
Meanwhile, the richest of the rich are going to get tax reliefs.
This is exactly what the ÖVP has been standing for in the last 5 years, the last 15 years, the last 30 years they have governed this nation. You have fallen into Kurz's trap just as much as so many others. Just cause he calls his party a "movement", talks about how evil migration is, establishes a cult around himself and changes the party colour to teal doesn't mean the ÖVP isn't still the ÖVP. Because it is.
[...]
I want the % to get to more than just the ones who are rich already. Those surely want no change and would always voice how much our economy grows. But are the people living better because of this? I don't see it
[...]
Is this a quote you got from the old coalition FPÖVP? Because things can always change. Same like the ÖVP does not stand for something it did stand for 5 years ago. Why are people afraid it would be the completely same outcome? It's still better to me to try something different than changing nothing. And there was no party that would've gotten near that change. Maybe Die Grünen was a possibility, before they decided to implode.
[...]
And i have the privilege to call you ignorant for a change. Because you live good maybe? I would never have the gist to call someone ignorant or a nazi sympathizer over his voice, not over 30 or 25% of votes. But please, if you think everyone of those votes was ignorant or a nazi, go on. That's not my way of a liberal thinking. You actually are close minded that way.
Also, even enough women see abortion and same sex marriage way different. Still enough women that voted for ÖVP and FPÖ. Why you ask? It's still their decision. Die Grünen was actually one of the most prefered parties for women before. Why did that change? And same sex marriage isn't even nowhere near important as helping people that are poor, but go on. That's actually the parties programm that Lunacek voiced and that got her to the place where she is now.
so you want to fight income inequality by voting for the 1- and 10% parties? really?
no, the ÖVP does not stand for the same things it stood 5 years ago, the regressed even further to at least 15 years ago.
so yes, if you are poor, and you vote for a party like that, I reserve the right to call you ignorant.
and the abortion thing... no comment
edit:
The money and funds they are planing to take from the evil foreigners is NOT going to go to help anyone but the very top.
They fared even worse here, at least in terms of decline in percentage points:Hm at least Graz has an alright enough result I guess. FPÖ only gained a bit more than 1% (still #3 with 21%), SPÖ won, the Greens got destroyed (from #1 with 21% to fucking 5.79 wowww). Why the hell can't we do that at Gemeinderatswahlen?
They really fucked this one up alright.
Of course they want change. Change that means lower taxes for themselves. Change that dismantles pesky worker's rights. Really any change that makes them get even MORE money that they don't need at the expense of everyone with less.They will get that with the FPÖ and ÖVP because that's what they're openly and secretly all about.
I still can't believe how many FPÖ voters think the FPÖ is for the "small man". Their policies and voting history, not their empty platitudes, tell us all we need to know.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Also immigrants are netto payers meaning as a group they pay more into the welfare state than they take out of it.
People can see the issues I brought up differently, they are allowed to voice their opinions as always but they've been in the way of progress for far too long discriminating many others in the process.
Ask any party if they intend to help the poor and you won't find one that says no but the 2 parties that say to no equal rights just got voted into power.
Strache literally has a documented Nazi past, look at their candidate for presidency a couple years ago. I have no qualms about calling FPO voters nazi sympathizers and the results of the last couple votes had me devastated how many of those are among the populace of my country.
People can see the issues I brought up differently, they are allowed to voice their opinions as always but they've been in the way of progress for far too long discriminating many others in the process.
Ask any party if they intend to help the poor and you won't find one that says no but the 2 parties that say to no equal rights just got voted into power.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Right wing populism that exploits and encourages racist fears in people is disgusting and should always be called out.
Their messages already rely on racism and their success arises from it.
This will not only speed up the spread of racism, it will also normalize the less obvious racism.
Its a slippery slope and it obviously doesn't start with the Swastika wearing dumb fucks, but with the well groomed, suit wearing populists who "are just telling it like it is" when they selectively spread news stories of immigrants committing crimes or whatever they do...
Playing out two different groups of poor people in need against each other is always wrong.
After decades of western intervention in the middle east which only led to further destabilization we are suddenly surprised that these people want to flee that region?
After spending hundreds of billions of € to bail out banks, help them out of a mess they created themselves, we just can't state with a straight face that we don't have the money to help these people in need, a cost factor that pales in comparison to what we just spent on saving banks.
I just haven't heard any anti-refugee arguments that aren't ultimately rooted in racism.
Again, this might be a point where FPÖ has a better programm. You actually can't vote for someone for 100% because there will always be something you disagree with. I find that in every party programm. And why should i have fallen into Kurz's trap? It was not my vote to begin with, it's just that i want to see why you're all so surprised.
Well, it's not really surprising that you will find students who have those opinions, but it will prob differ strongly depending on the university you are at or between individual studies. I'm a Business Administration student and ÖVP/Neos or AG (depending on what was being voted on) was very common, if not the majority. Talking to students of other faculties I could also see the attitudes you are talking about, but again, a majority of academics voted centre-right
Edit:
As someone who is going to rent a new place next week I have to give them props for their proposal which lead to the abolishment of the Mietvertrags Vergebührung this week
I think it is surprising. I as a student always try to reflect every single bit of information and really have to say, that students nowaday need to calm down a bit. We throw words like nazi etc. around too easy. Today it's easy if you just say something bad about immigration or the problems that we faced and still face, it makes you a nazi really quick. Instead of talking it out in a good manner where you really can tell the positive and negative sides, and still be centric. That's for example always my goal.
That's disgusting. I didn't even state my stance on abortion and you shut it down with "no comment". That's also the same again. Calm down, I can't believe why some need to be like that. If women would share the same stance like Die Grünen for example, they would've voted for them instead of FPÖVP. But they didn't - and that's all i said and this is true. But thank you, hope you're proud.
Again, history. You all just double down on history. I can't double down on history actually, because i always think that things can change. Meaning the same parties from years ago might be on top again, does not mean they are the same people. Actually, many people left in that timespace.
Edit:
I strongly disagree, because many immigrants haven't even got the right to work. So they can only take, and not give. Guess what? They get blamed for this pretty often. But actually it was our politics that forbid it. So? They can have the will to work like they want to, if they can't, they can't. Now some get money, even more than a person that worked for 30 years, because it was a bad paying job, so maybe around 700-800 if lucky. I know enough of them. Retiring early for example, because of an illness, will get you there. And then you ask yourself why. I have at least the empathy to somehow get it why they would like to have a change. Even if it does not hit me, i would understand why someone in this situation votes like that.
And now i will try to just reply to some if at all, because it still really fits what i wanted to see early on. Voicing a bit why you understand this election gets you into a group of wild bears, at least it feels like that. I know Neogaf is really liberal, but please people still accept it. It was democratic, and more people wanted this. We're all in this boat.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
my favourite is "we can't take everyone" ignoring that a we don't and b we can take much more and c that asylum is pretty specifically worded and we constantly deny people one.
I usually remind people that Lebanon took in more than a million refugess with just a population of 6 million.
Red Arremer
Member
So you think political parties can change from one day to the next? Because you can look at what policies that would benefit the poor or old that the FPÖ and ÖVP have voted against or blockaded before, and have done so in recent history.
Rejecting inheritance tax, blowing up the Sozialpartner (nobody gives a shit about the Wirtschaftskammer, but the Arbeiterkammer is insanely important), and many more delicious things have been part of FPÖVP programs.
Also: Trickle-down doesn't work.
Rejecting inheritance tax, blowing up the Sozialpartner (nobody gives a shit about the Wirtschaftskammer, but the Arbeiterkammer is insanely important), and many more delicious things have been part of FPÖVP programs.
Also: Trickle-down doesn't work.
Can you name what exact measures from their program makes it better? You keep avoiding this.
Ok, I get it, you won't find any economic measures supporting your supposed reasons for voting them (helping the elder), but at least some other specific measures? Is that too much to ask?
snail_maze
Member
The system of letting everyone in who entered our borders without any sort of checks was a really really bad idea. It hurt the left pretty bad and I imagine that if the SPÖ hadn't made a right turn there too, that they would had lost today instead of gained.
Edit: i guess I mean that anti-illegal immigration arguments aren't always the same as anti-refugee arguments
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
That was never "an idea".
It was a necessary response to a situation that started to cost an increasing number of lives.
Neither FPÖ nor ÖVP have come forward with a clear statement about how they want to achieve a fair spread of refugees across Europe and how they want to integrate these people successfully.
All they talk about is how to avoid taking in refugees and how to get them out again. Those aren't solutions to the problem at hand, thats just populist pandering to a xenophobic base.
Its not about whether we take in refugees, its about how we do it.
But an increasing numbers of parties in Europe tries to make voters think the refugee crisis is an issue that be ignored by just not taking in refugee. Thats not the case and its extremely irresponsible to instill that thought in people.
I would allege that many parties on the right are very happy without clear distinctions between illegal-immigration and asylum.
Although its important to note that the standards for asylum have risen quite high.
Many people who are categorized as illegal immigrants just fled incredibly hard living conditions and shouldn't be blamed for it.
But instead of a rhetoric focussing on Europes responsibilities in the world in the light of millions of people fleeing their homelands, many parties rather fall back on dull populist messages.
No it's alright, i know where you come from.
If you can read in german you can look into their programm
https://www.fpoe.at/themen/parteiprogramm/familie-und-generationen/
https://www.fpoe.at/themen/parteiprogramm/wohlstand-und-soziales-gleichgewicht/
Edit:
https://www.fpoe.at/themen/wahlprogramm-2017/unsere-senioren/
Thats more appropriate if you just double down on the programm for this election, rather than the vision of the party.
You surely find more. I know we have the problem that most parties sadly don't really tell you how they want to achieve this. But you find that in every party, so people will depend on those who promise to change something in this aspect. At least thats what i think. I also would not really find something promising from other parties either. And yes, i try to read the program of every single party.
snail_maze
Member
Keeping the borders open for as long as they did was a political decision, the same way that closing the Balkan route was one.
I agree that many are denied "asylum" status, but there are too many cases where the countries of origin refuse to issue the paperwork making deportations possible . That needs to be addressed or else we can just bin our immigration laws because who is even paying attention to them anymore.
I am not arguing for stricter immigration laws, but I do want the ones we have to be implemented
Red Arremer
Member
Can we pick Balkanroute as Unwort des Jahres?
Kurz did absolutely nothing in that regard other than producing hot air.
First of all, the route is not closed, people still come through it, just not as many. Second, the main contributors to this development are Orban closing Hungary's borders and Merkel's deal with Erdogan. Kurz contributed absolutely nothing. And let's not forget that Kurz has been responsible for integration how many years now? 6? Austria's record in regards to integration is absolutely disastrous. He absolutely failed as minister for integration.
But of course it's easy to wear someone else's "laurels" if they benefit your own grasp for power.
snail_maze
Member
I didn't say he did. Him praising himself for it is as silly as Kern was when he was talking about the recent economic growth and implying he was the cause of it.
I did say that it was a political decision. Many actors failed by having the borders open, from the EU to the national politicians. The result is that the left everywhere is hurting now
Red Arremer
Member
Fair enough. I thought you were talking on an Austrian level since, well, this is a thread about Austrian politics.
Red Arremer
Member
Well the FPÖ is definitely nothing if not different.
I think the courts still aren't done wrapping up all those corruption cases from the last government they were part of.
I think the courts still aren't done wrapping up all those corruption cases from the last government they were part of.
Yes, you are clearly the victim here.
Hint: I did not comment on your absent stance on abortion. I didn't even comment your justification for why some women would chose to vote for said parties.
we have no indication for any change
voting information inside the parliament is public. That's the best indication we have for their ideology. Go look up how they voted on anything concerning your life. You may be surprised.
This is not an opinion you can agree or disagree with, but proven facts. Migrants (in austria) pay way more into the system than they receive. Even if refugees can't contribute (yet), the others who can still contribute greatly.
Borders are not a physical thing. "closing them" results in exactly what right wingers claim - illegal migration.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
That move saved many, many lives. It wasn't a fail.
D
Deleted member 98878
Unconfirmed Member
+10% for ÖVP -.-
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