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Automotive Discussion Thread | OT2 | Zero to pointless fighting faster than a GT86

AlphaSnake

...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Car is new. I'm borrowing 60%.

Seeing as how you won't be upside then...no. You don't need GAP coverage. You're also buying an M3 which will not depreciate like a tank.

Still, call your insurance company. Most of them have new car replacement as standard.
 

No Love

Banned
That has a lot to do with the only successful way of launching the WRX fast. 6500+ RPM, drop the clutch and hope you don't break it, blast to 60. Like the rolling start time of the manual 5-60 is 6.6 seconds or something like that.

I wonder if there is a track time where the two could be compared.

That's just 0-60. It gets worse when you pull out the 1/4 mile. And it doesn't suck just because it can't be launched as well.

I hate to quote C&D but:

Subaru has programmed this CVT to mimic a six- or eight-speed auto by operating in stair steps rather than one fluid sweep of ratio change. Slip the shifter into drive and the WRX will clip through its programmed ratios quickly. Driven casually, the transmission does a convincing impersonation of a conventional automatic. But the harder you drive, the more its façade fades and the CVT annoys.

Tromp the gas while rolling and prepare to wait. Your command for speed goes to committee as the engine revs up and the transmission dusts the furniture. By the time the transmission finds that lower ratio, the gap you were going for has been filled by a Corolla.

At the test track, this CVT-equipped WRX lagged the stick version, the quarter-mile taking 14.3 seconds at 99 mph, or 0.7 second and 3 mph behind the manual. Unable to launch the auto WRX as hard as the manual, we saw the zero-to-60 time stretch from 4.8 seconds to 5.5 seconds. When you brake-torque the automatic, the engine revs up to 2500 rpm and the transmission goes into a sort of maximum-acceleration mode, whereby it drops the shifting charade and acts like the CVT that it is. Once you’re off, the engine reaches 6400 rpm in the lowest ratio and remains there as speed rises, until it dips to a steady 6200 rpm beyond 60 mph.

If I'm driving an automatic anything, it better be as good as the Lexus IS-F's fantastic 8-speed auto. Let's not even get into dual clutch. The CVT can't even be as good as an automatic trans, and isn't even half of a DCT's fart.

Again: anyone buying the CVT WRX is doing themselves a huge disservice. It's just so... gross.
 

AlphaSnake

...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Please do expand on this more. I hear good things about it, but I also hear lots of bad things. An objective assessment, if possible.

There is no such thing as a good CVT. In order to have a truly proper single-geared experience, you need a SHIT ton of power to back it up. See: Regera. Tesla. etc.

CVTs are inherently awful and belong on economy cars. They take the term 'slushbox' to an entirely new planet of meaning. They lack response, they lack refinement, they lack any sort of connection and feel. The transmission feels like a wet sponge, as opposed to a mechanical piece of machinery with gears, nuts and bolts. And paddle shifters on a CVT are just silly gimmicks.

Also, turbo cars like the WRX have torque peaks and horsepower peaks, the latter of which does NOT get near redline. And with CVTs when you floor it, it just shoots to redline and sits there. Most likely out of optimal boost range. So imagine completing a highway pass or a merger and not having the power as you need it?

This also explains why the 0-60 figures are so much slower for the WRX CVT. Back in the days of old and crusty 4ATs, MTs were always expected to be faster than autos - because they had better gearing, MORE gears at that, could launch more aggressive, and weren't sapped by shitty torque converters.

Today, that isn't the case. ATs are now faster than MTs they've replaced. Torque converters decouple. They don't sap power. They're extremely responsive. And we're seeing conventional automatics as fast as DCTs.

So when you examine Subaru and what they did to the WRX, they effectively took the car back a decade. It's antiquated.
 

No Love

Banned
There is no such thing as a good CVT. In order to have a truly proper single-geared experience, you need a SHIT ton of power to back it up. See: Regera. Tesla. etc.

CVTs are inherently awful and belong on economy cars. They take the term 'slushbox' to an entirely new planet of meaning. They lack response, they lack refinement, they lack any sort of connection and feel. The transmission feels like a wet sponge, as opposed to a mechanical piece of machinery with gears, nuts and bolts. And paddle shifters on a CVT are just silly gimmicks.

Also, turbo cars like the WRX have torque peaks and horsepower peaks, the latter of which does NOT get near redline. And with CVTs when you floor it, it just shoots to redline and sits there. Most likely out of optimal boost range. So imagine completing a highway pass or a merger and not having the power as you need it?

This also explains why the 0-60 figures are so much slower for the WRX CVT. Back in the days of old and crusty 4ATs, MTs were always expected to be faster than autos - because they had better gearing, MORE gears at that, could launch more aggressive, and weren't sapped by shitty torque converters.

Today, that isn't the case. ATs are now faster than MTs they've replaced. Torque converters decouple. They don't sap power. They're extremely responsive. And we're seeing conventional automatics as fast as DCTs.

So when you examine Subaru and what they did to the WRX, they effectively took the car back a decade. It's antiquated.


Yup. Everyone knows a stock WRX's power is in the midrange and that it tapers off near redline. It's nonsensical.

Subaru knows the average CVT WRX buyer is probably too ignorant/clueless to know any better.
 

Evo X

Member
God DAYUM! Red with that strong morning comeback. 17 votes for Red vs.12 for White now.

If I'm driving an automatic anything, it better be as good as the Lexus IS-F's fantastic 8-speed auto.

The 8 speed auto in BMWs 550i and the Jaguar F-Type are excellent as well.

Well color me surprised, a full second faster than the P1, even after McLaren spent time tweaking it and swapping tires?

I guess there's only so much you can do trying to put power down through two wheels, and at a certain power point it's AWD or go home.

There is no substitute. :)

I bet the 918 would stomp the shit out of the LaFailrrari too in the Top Gear comparo.

There is no such thing as a good CVT. In order to have a truly proper single-geared experience, you need a SHIT ton of power to back it up. See: Regera. Tesla. etc.

CVTs are inherently awful and belong on economy cars. They take the term 'slushbox' to an entirely new planet of meaning. They lack response, they lack refinement, they lack any sort of connection and feel. The transmission feels like a wet sponge, as opposed to a mechanical piece of machinery with gears, nuts and bolts. And paddle shifters on a CVT are just silly gimmicks.

Also, turbo cars like the WRX have torque peaks and horsepower peaks, the latter of which does NOT get near redline. And with CVTs when you floor it, it just shoots to redline and sits there. Most likely out of optimal boost range. So imagine completing a highway pass or a merger and not having the power as you need it?

This also explains why the 0-60 figures are so much slower for the WRX CVT. Back in the days of old and crusty 4ATs, MTs were always expected to be faster than autos - because they had better gearing, MORE gears at that, could launch more aggressive, and weren't sapped by shitty torque converters.

Today, that isn't the case. ATs are now faster than MTs they've replaced. Torque converters decouple. They don't sap power. They're extremely responsive. And we're seeing conventional automatics as fast as DCTs.

So when you examine Subaru and what they did to the WRX, they effectively took the car back a decade. It's antiquated.

Very well put!
 

mkenyon

Banned
You guys are unknowingly giving me the tools to wreck my good friend who I was convinced was clueless that his CVT was junk. :p
 

mkenyon

Banned
Oh, anyone who has driven an SRT anything with that 8 speed auto, thoughts on it versus a manual?

Friend is dead set on a Challenger or 300C with the 392 Hemi. He's not sure if he wants to go manual or auto with it.
 

AlphaSnake

...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
Oh, anyone who has driven an SRT anything with that 8 speed auto, thoughts on it versus a manual?

Friend is dead set on a Challenger or 300C with the 392 Hemi. He's not sure if he wants to go manual or auto with it.

It's a ZF8. So it's going to be great. It's the best AT money can buy.
 
You guys are unknowingly giving me the tools to wreck my good friend who I was convinced was clueless that his CVT was junk. :p

It is clear where auto GAF lies on this subject, But as someone who has actually driven the CVT WRX, it is not the horrible piece of junk that it is being made out to be. Sure, it is not as quick as the manual, but 5.5 to 60 is nothing to laugh at either. If you are tracking the car or autocrossing or living your life a quarter mile at a time, then the manual is a no brainer. But if this will be your daily driver and if you deal with weather, the auto bears at least a test drive. You might be surprised. I was.
 

Chiester

Member
We're a fan of pop-ups at this household. Hehehe. Miata is my daily, AE92 GT-S is my and my GF's new project and will be her daily, and S13 is my roommates SR20 Blacktop swapped daily.

Don't mind the oil stains from my old Yota truck...

11008447_101527954337osbun.jpg

Very nice cars! My 86 was the first car I've owned with pop ups. I know it's childish, but it's so fun making them go up and down.

Also I'm going to go with red.
 

Reven

Member
Evo you already know white is the best choice. Especially with the red accent stitching. The car is gonna look great in either color, but will be GORGEOUS in white. And specifically what white are you looking at, the plain white or the Carrara white metallic?

If I could afford a GT4 I would be ordering Agate Grey Metallic. I love metallic greys.
 

Evo X

Member
Evo you already know white is the best choice. Especially with the red accent stitching. The car is gonna look great in either color, but will be GORGEOUS in white. And specifically what white are you looking at, the plain white or the Carrara white metallic?

If I could afford a GT4 I would be ordering Agate Grey Metallic. I love metallic greys.

I was just gonna go with the standard white, but now I'm not so sure.

The Carrara white is a very subtle difference. Tiny flakes up close with grey/blue undertones. No pearl effect like many other metallic whites.

The standard one is more consistent under different lighting conditions and has more "pop" It also seems to lean towards a warmer hue compared to cooler Carrara.

Agate looks really nice, but I had a Grey Evo 10, so I want something different.

Here's a good comparison between all the colors. The Cayman GTS is Carrara White, the Boxster Spyder is standard white, and the 991 GT3 is Guard's Red.

It's a minimal price difference between metallic and non metallic, but metallic colors are much harder to match if there is ever any damage to the paint.

DSC_0019.jpg


photo_2.jpg


DSC_0020.jpg


photo.jpg


DSC_0010.jpg


DSC_0013.jpg
 

ascii42

Member
Hey guys is GAP insurance a good idea?

Also, a friend recommended going with an insurer that will give me MSRP for my car in the event of a total loss. Anyone use this sort of policy? Who offers it?

Depends. If you are putting a lot down, have a good trade-in, or getting a really good deal, it probably won't be worth it since you'll be less likely to be upside down, but if you are getting a loan for most or all of the car's, then it makes sense.
 
Ok thanks guys. Its not much money but since the depreciated value will be ahead of the loan by quite a bit, theres no sense in keeping the GAP policy.
 

mkenyon

Banned
Actually, after seeing all those, man.

I might switch to #teamred.

I still like the white with subtle red accents as you've describe though.
 

Reven

Member
God damn Evo. Those red pics you just posted have me leaning towards red now. The interior is especially nice. What red did you say you would get?
 

Evo X

Member
God damn Evo. Those red pics you just posted have me leaning towards red now. The interior is especially nice. What red did you say you would get?

The one I just posted, Guard's Red.

Reading some impressions from people that were at the launch it Portugal, they say it was the most stunning color they saw in person.

Unsurprisingly, they also said Carrara White metallic looks great. Man, I never would have thought I would get a red car, but the more I look at it, the white just starts looking a little boring in comparison.

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Mother of fnck...

How the hell am I gonna scrounge up $100k to get this in my veins???

Mouth frothing aside, I'm surprised they used the 6-speed instead. Don't they have a 7-speed? Or would that have increased the price a lot more?

Unsurprisingly, they also said Carrara White metallic looks great. Man, I never would have thought I would get a red car, but the more I look at it, the white just starts looking a little boring in comparison.

YES YES YES!!!

#TeamRed
 

lem0n

Member
Very nice cars! My 86 was the first car I've owned with pop ups. I know it's childish, but it's so fun making them go up and down.

Also I'm going to go with red.

Thank you :) You can press the headlight button in the Miata in a certain frequency and make the lights wink. It's pretty amazing.
 

Kipp

but I am taking tiny steps forward
Oh man. That garage is gorgeous. Both because of the cars in it and because of its natural light and open air and everything.
 
My coworker bought the CVT WRX

He let me drive it and it was not ideal, I'll just say that much. I just congratulated him with a forced smile. I told him to get the manual and that I'd teach him in my car but alas, he went with the auto...
 

AlphaSnake

...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
My coworker bought the CVT WRX

He let me drive it and it was not ideal, I'll just say that much. I just congratulated him with a forced smile. I told him to get the manual and that I'd teach him in my car but alas, he went with the auto...

How awkward is it when your friends, family, co-workers ask for your advice...you spend tons of time giving it to them. And they pretty much go against it. And then you have to forcefully congratulate them?

My reactions are always so tame. It's usually an "oh okay. nice!" Or "good going! hope you enjoy it". As I force a smile.
 

J-Rzez

Member
My coworker bought the CVT WRX

He let me drive it and it was not ideal, I'll just say that much. I just congratulated him with a forced smile. I told him to get the manual and that I'd teach him in my car but alas, he went with the auto...

I would have just said "good luck with the new car" nicely. That CVT is very disjointing. I understand why they do it, to save cost, and to offer an "auto" to those people who need it (disabled, terrified of a stick), but it is not good at all for the driving experience. Mine is a manual, and every car that i've owned since I was 17 (in my 30's now) has been a proper manual. There is just something "right" when driving a manual to me. I understand good DCTs can beat out a human shifting, but if I had the option, I'd take the fraction slower manual any day of the week.

It just feels right, that it belongs, that you're more connected to the car. It will be a sad day when you can't get a good car with a real manual transmission anymore.

So the Golf R is really impressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXmd3QF-zYU&feature=youtu.be

Runs low 13s @ 105MPH. That's damned quick. It's a tick quicker to 60 than an STI. And 1.5MPH faster to trap the 1/4 mile.

MT ran a 13.1 with both the STI and Golf R.

Both cost virtually the same coin.

Subaru really addressed a massive issue with the WRX and STI, and that's their handling. The car is nothing like the old ones which really disappointed me. The new chassis and dialing is really good, really performance orientated. They feel good, and not floaty-pushy.

That said, the EJ25 got to go. It's more than wore it's welcome. They need to step up their game and fast with the likes of the Focus RS on the way as well. We all know the FA20DIT is a fantastic motor, now they just need to capitalize on it.
 

No Love

Banned
So the Golf R is really impressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXmd3QF-zYU&feature=youtu.be

Runs low 13s @ 105MPH. That's damned quick. It's a tick quicker to 60 than an STI. And 1.5MPH faster to trap the 1/4 mile.

MT ran a 13.1 with both the STI and Golf R.

Both cost virtually the same coin.

The new STI is so stupid looking that I'd take the Golf R. With E85 and some upgrades getting it into the 11's or 10's would be easy.
 

Evo X

Member
So the Golf R is really impressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXmd3QF-zYU&feature=youtu.be

Runs low 13s @ 105MPH. That's damned quick. It's a tick quicker to 60 than an STI. And 1.5MPH faster to trap the 1/4 mile.

MT ran a 13.1 with both the STI and Golf R.

Both cost virtually the same coin.

Yeah, but if you had $40K to spend on a car, would you buy one?

I certainly wouldn't. If you're buying used, that gives you a hell of a lot of better options.

Even if we compare it to new cars, for $40K, I would take a Mustang GT with performance pack over this ALL DAY.
 

GHG

Member
So the Golf R is really impressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXmd3QF-zYU&feature=youtu.be

Runs low 13s @ 105MPH. That's damned quick. It's a tick quicker to 60 than an STI. And 1.5MPH faster to trap the 1/4 mile.

MT ran a 13.1 with both the STI and Golf R.

Both cost virtually the same coin.

Really impressive little car. With a stage 1 remap you can get these to do 0-60 in 3.7 allegedly which is quite frankly insane.

Got a news back on my x6. Apparently the vanos is on its way out and will cost me the best part of $2000 to fix and will be without the car for the next week. Apparently this is caused by BMW's insistance on having oil services only once every 20k km.

So to all of you:

- Don't own a BMW with a performance turbo engine out of warranty unless you are willing to spend time and money nursing it.

- Ignore BMW's recommended oil change intervals. Do it once every 10k km minimum, especially if you drive the car as its meant to be drive and/or live in a hot climate.

Hopefully this fixes the issue and its not a misdiagnosis. But from what I've read over the last few days in now scared of this N63 engine. More will go wrong, I can feel it.
 

Ty4on

Member
Also, turbo cars like the WRX have torque peaks and horsepower peaks, the latter of which does NOT get near redline. And with CVTs when you floor it, it just shoots to redline and sits there. Most likely out of optimal boost range. So imagine completing a highway pass or a merger and not having the power as you need it?
The HP peak is at 5600 according to the Car and Driver review which incidently is excactly where the RPMs stay in that video. It seemed quite unwilling to find that spot, but it shouldn't slip in the traditional way. It is an illusion that they peak earlier.

The initial slip is proabably very demanding for the CVT and holding back the 0-60 time. They are not big fans of torque. The simulated manual sounds hilarious as it hunts around for the gear. Let me control the RPM instead of the ratio.

Edit: Vanos issue again? They had tons of issues with it on ~1999 models well before the introduction of turbos.
 

GHG

Member
The HP peak is at 5600 according to the Car and Driver review which incidently is excactly where the RPMs stay in that video. It seemed quite unwilling to find that spot, but it shouldn't slip in the traditional way. It is an illusion that they peak earlier.

The initial slip is proabably very demanding for the CVT and holding back the 0-60 time. They are not big fans of torque. The simulated manual sounds hilarious as it hunts around for the gear. Let me control the RPM instead of the ratio.

Edit: Vanos issue again? They had tons of issues with it on ~1999 models well before the introduction of turbos.

Vanos will ALWAYS be an issue on BMW's as long as they keep insisting that 20k between oil changes is ok. The unit seizes up if its getting dirty oil.

Do your oil changes every 10k BMW GAF. It will save you problems in the future.
 

AlphaSnake

...and that, kids, was the first time I sucked a dick for crack
The HP peak is at 5600 according to the Car and Driver review which incidently is excactly where the RPMs stay in that video. It seemed quite unwilling to find that spot, but it shouldn't slip in the traditional way. It is an illusion that they peak earlier.

The initial slip is proabably very demanding for the CVT and holding back the 0-60 time. They are not big fans of torque. The simulated manual sounds hilarious as it hunts around for the gear. Let me control the RPM instead of the ratio.

Edit: Vanos issue again? They had tons of issues with it on ~1999 models well before the introduction of turbos.

In Motor Trend's review of the car, they said their CVT rose to 6400RPM before slowly settling at 6200RPM.
 

Smokey

Member
Vanos will ALWAYS be an issue on BMW's as long as they keep insisting that 20k between oil changes is ok. The unit seizes up if its getting dirty oil.

Do your oil changes every 10k BMW GAF. It will save you problems in the future.

Ah maybe that's why my issue has gone away. I change it every 5k-7k miles or so. For awhile I was relying on the car to tell me when to change it.
 
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