I can understand being disappointed that it doesn't end with something more explicit, but going from that to "they were never gay, people just projected it onto these characters" is just a really weird reading of the show that I don't think makes much sense.
If this was a relationship between a man and a women in another show, we'd have seen them actually kiss. There'd be none of this indirect camera trickery that maybe suggests that they kissed, but maybe they didn't. We'd also have a pretty clear declaration from the characters that they were in a relationship.
Instead, we get the same old hints, suggestions and wink-wink moments to imply that the characters are gay and in a relationship. But why couldn't it be open and clear? It feels extremely weak to leave it ambiguous at all - it serves no purpose except to put it in line with all those other shows that never commit to anything. That's a cowardly choice.
I don't want to do a moving the goalposts thing but a kiss is just a kiss. If shippers and cherry boys wanna go nuts over allusions to homosexuality be my guest, but the relationship between Yuri and Viktor is explicitly left undeclared and unconsummated. This course sells male sexuality to the viewer but divorces itself from the the subject matter of being gay pretty strongly to me. When the entire finale intentionally undermines Yuri and Viktor as a couple it's kind of just a complete wash. It's not a "they were never gay" thing. If the show itself is unwilling to commit to the characters being together than how meaningful is that relationship really?
I don't know that I'd agree that the finale intentionally undermines them as a couple, but I better understand where you're coming from now. I would have definitely preferred them to end it differently and make their relationship explicit (and there were plenty of windows throughout the show to have done this).
If this was a relationship between a man and a women in another show, we'd have seen them actually kiss. There'd be none of this indirect camera trickery that maybe suggests that they kissed, but maybe they didn't. We'd also have a pretty clear declaration from the characters that they were in a relationship.
Instead, we get the same old hints, suggestions and wink-wink moments to imply that the characters are gay and in a relationship. But why couldn't it be open and clear? It feels extremely weak to leave it ambiguous at all - it serves no purpose except to put it in line with all those other shows that never commit to anything. That's a cowardly choice.
Avoiding the kiss isn't really that uncommon in anime about straight couples either, but yes, they were far more coy with it than it probably would have been otherwise.
It doesn't really mater how explicit it gets. Some people would still deny it. People did the same thing with No.6 and that had two on screen kisses. It's a friend kiss bro!
I'm not even sure what bait means at this point to be honest. But I know that if Yuuri was a gurl this discussions wouldn't be happening and don't tell me there would be a kiss for sure because like 90% anime couples don't even hold hands.
You'll excuse me if I have to disagree with this sentiment.
I don't think the finale to the first season of Yuri on Ice!!! satisfied on any level.
- Yuri and Victor's relationship continues to left deliberately vague, despite the show going in incredibly hard on them so recently (literally weddings rings).
- It doesn't feel like there's enough time to conclude the fairly thin arcs that many of these side characters have undergone and as a result, even though their performances were notable, they continue to feel underwritten.
- Yurio went from feeling like a main character undergoing his own journey into becoming just another tool to move Yuri's story along. Unfortunate.
- There's some fairly clear hints that this season was going to conclude in a fairly final way but then they saw how popular the show was and realised that a 2nd season would be a very smart move. It's not outrageously egregious, but it feels awkward because Yuri makes a fairly decisive move at the start of the episode and then appears to completely reverse it minutes later.
It's extremely easy to imagine an ending when Yuri wins the gold, retires at the height of his career, and then perhaps forms a more conclusive relationship with Victor. This would also fire Yurio up to his best next year, instead of literally winning everything in his senior début, leaving him with less goals for his next season.
I mean, I feel like the animation even supports Yuri beating Yurio. Yurio literally flubs a jump, and is less than perfect. Yuri, meanwhile, is perfect, increases the difficulty on all his moves and sets a world record.
- Which brings up the obvious question - what would a second season be about? I feel like these characters have gone through their character arcs, for better or for worse. Just gunning for Gold doesn't seem to be what the series is about.
At least this episode looked pretty good, even though it was clearly a total nightmare to make.
This is almost exactly how I feel about all the events in the finale. It kind of screws up the dynamics of an actual season 2 and you can tell they rushed in the changes.
I was expecting Victor to come back and Yuri to not retire but the way it's handled in this episode is sloppy at best. You can tell exactly when they did the rewrites in the episode too.
Characters flat out reverse thought out decisions in the span of minutes with no lead-in. That said, we did get this amazing line:
I don't know that I'd agree that the finale intentionally undermines them as a couple, but I better understand where you're coming from now. I would have definitely preferred them to end it differently and make their relationship explicit (and there were plenty of windows throughout the show to have done this).
Avoiding the kiss isn't really that uncommon in anime about straight couples either, but yes, they were far more coy with it than it probably would have been otherwise.
1 - Most relationships that go nowhere in anime are between teenagers, I feel it's a little different for relationships between adults in there 20's
2 - You're not wrong to note that many relationships in anime are awkwardly written, but I don't see why the show cant surpass those low standards
- Which brings up the obvious question - what would a second season be about? I feel like these characters have gone through their character arcs, for better or for worse. Just gunning for Gold doesn't seem to be what the series is about.
.
Well I'll be damned.
My Toilet-humor Anime Can't Be This Emotional.
Did not expect the direction it went in towards the end at all, but I have to say I'm pretty impressed with it. My only bigger complaint is probably how jarring the transition to the epilogue was.
This show was all about the Father & Daughter relationship underneath that wackyness.
I mean, this season literally has a show aimed at adults with the main couple going to confession straight through marriage do not collect 200 dollars. Yes, the characters in The Great Passage are obvious married and more "canon" than the gaiz in YoI but they literally have less romantic scenes and romantic development than Yuuri and Victor in any episode of YoI.
Is it lame they that they didn't kiss a second time especially after obviously teasing it?
Sure thing, I don't disagree, but I'm not sure why some people are acting like the characters got girlfriends and the author said it was just friendship. The only was to make sense to call this bait was if you (speaking in general) started watching this by episode 11. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. I feel like on crazy pills.
How many apples have you eaten in your life? Andre pls.
Last episode was kinda the transition episode, but this is completely in a new direction. More focus on cinematics. The rising sun shining down on Fersen was great.
[Yuri On Ice!!!: Season 1] - 12
- Yuri and Victor's relationship continues to left deliberately vague, despite the show going in incredibly hard on them so recently (literally weddings rings).
It was vague? I have to disagree. It was painfully obvious the two are in a committed relationship with each other. Heck even them dancing at the end together gives you enough to know they're planning on staying together forever. Maybe it doesn't get spelled out word for word, but I never had any doubt how the two of them felt about each other.
- There's some fairly clear hints that this season was going to conclude in a fairly final way but then they saw how popular the show was and realised that a 2nd season would be a very smart move. It's not outrageously egregious, but it feels awkward because Yuri makes a fairly decisive move at the start of the episode and then appears to completely reverse it minutes later.
It's extremely easy to imagine an ending when Yuri wins the gold, retires at the height of his career, and then perhaps forms a more conclusive relationship with Victor. This would also fire Yurio up to his best next year, instead of literally winning everything in his senior début, leaving him with less goals for his next season.
I mean, I feel like the animation even supports Yuri beating Yurio. Yurio literally flubs a jump, and is less than perfect. Yuri, meanwhile, is perfect, increases the difficulty on all his moves and sets a world record.
I don't think that ending was ever on the table. The show spends quite a few episodes mentioning how important Jumps are.
And Yurio does a heck of a lot of jumps in that second half of his performance, basically negating that one fall. I actually like the ending, as Yuri goes from simply wanting a Gold medal and to move on from the sport and to wanting to stay in it with Victor. He finds his passion again and wants to remain a part of the ice skating world.
It was vague? I have to disagree. It was painfully obvious the two are in a committed relationship with each other. Heck even them dancing at the end together gives you enough to know they're planning on staying together forever. Maybe it doesn't get spelled out word for word, but I never had any doubt how the two of them felt about each other.
I think you're missing the thrust of my point, either that or I haven't been clear enough (much like this series, perhaps?).
I believe the viewer is supposed to infer Yuri and Victor have feelings for each other. There's a great deal of evidence to support this reading. But my complaint remains the same - why does it have to be an inference? Why does it have to be a viewer reading? Why is it subtext when it should just be text?
I think you're missing the thrust of my point, either that or I haven't been clear enough (much like this series, perhaps?).
I believe the viewer is supposed to infer Yuri and Victor have feelings for each other. There's a great deal of evidence to support this reading. But my complaint remains the same - why does it have to be an inference? Why does it have to be a viewer reading? Why is it subtext when it should just be text?
I mean, subtext is kinda the crux for what many consider good writing. We don't need it spelled out because of how well it gets their relationship across. I think it's better this way.
First off that soundtrack is pumpin'. Like hot damn.
These aren't your standard fights. Araragi spends most of the time running away and yelling and has no clue how to fight, besides skimming through martial arts magazines. But since he has Kiss-Shot's abilities, he's the strongest creature in the world by an order of massive magnitudes. The gap between Kiss-Shot and everyone else is like the gap between Raditz and Kid Buu. Nobody is even remotely close to her, counting everyone in the series (maybe besides the Darkness?) Like if I was reincarnated as Bruce Lee and had to fight angry bar drunks. I mean, I'd win now when I'm at peak physical performance and the strongest fighter in the world...but I'd get hit. Even though Dramaturgie, Episode and Guillotine Cutter may leave something to be desired character-wise. They're certainly more made to be interesting for such a short amount of screentime they have as an essential boss rush, but they are no Kaiki or Ougi. They are still good to watch, very well animated and creative and fun to watch to boot. Being a movie it doesn't really have to worry about gore and there is one sequence in particular where they go all out. The last sequence in particular is spectacular where Araragi turns into The Flash.
The scenes with Hanekawa and Araragi are really good, and Hanekawa might be at her best/most interesting in Kizu. She really is the best character in the series. This is still really light on the dialogue compared to the rest of Monogatari (and its in unsubbed, but I read the book) but I really like the scenes between the two. It sure can push you into the
false
notion that Cat/Araragi is the true end, but you'll only get sad when you realize what their relationship really is. Oshino has a bunch of good scenes too, and Kiss-Shot spends most of the movie asleep or making goofy faces, which is good.
Overall this certainly feels like the middle entry. It does feel like the goal of this movie was to get through the three fights so that the ending could be setup, which is fine I guess. Both movies have done an extremely good job of cutting the fat and making things move at a brisk pace to get this done, which may lead some people to be somewhat disappointed that it is missing a lot of Araragi's monologues but hey, you got to do what you got to do. I think the movies do a good job of showing the monologues without dwelling on them, like Araragi rapidly glancing through the Kung Fu magazine. When it ended I was somewhat disappointed, but knowing what comes next I'm not that disappointed.
Not sure if I would place this above or below Part I, will definitely rewatch it with subs. I have a feeling I will end up liking the final part the most, though.
Now I'm probably going to rewatch it or listen to that soundtrack goddamn
Because the show needs to save the line of dialogue that says "I love you" for its final episode for maximum effect. Of course, if the show had run for one season only we'd have probably got that in this episode.
Given that Yuri and Viktor already live together and have basically proposed, I'm not sure what's left for them to do that's innocent enough for the kind of show this seems to be; put both their names on a mortgage?
(also - what on earth can be the next theme for Yuri's routines? Nothing quite as punchy as eros springs to mind; I vote we keep it Greek, go with kleos, and have the series end with Yuri dying majestically after his final dance and earning eternal glory...)
I mean, subtext is kinda the crux for what many consider good writing. We don't need it spelled out because of how well it gets their relationship across. I think it's better this way.
Subtext is important, but it's not like being subtext is automatically "good writing".
The value of subtext is for communicating things that the author wishes to convey, but aren't necessarily things the characters want to convey. Having a character say "no, but this is really a metaphor for World War 2/Wall Street/religious fundamentalism" would be terribly hokey. So subtext is used so that a text can work on two different levels. The surface level of the text, where a story is about the main plot, and the subtext below that level where it's making some larger point about things through metaphors, allegory, social commentary, etc.
When it's something crucial to the characters, leaving it unsaid isn't necessarily better writing. That's not to say that there can be no value in obfuscating details of character motivations and feelings for a certain dramatic effect, but if you're just leaving things unsaid without using that disconnect to create a specific effect, then it's not really something where you're getting a lot of value from it.
Yuri on Ice 12: Before this episode I was sure I was going to put Rakugo as #1 of the year and YoI as #2, but now I have no idea. Might just call it a tie.
Such a perfect ending. All of the characters in the Final got the performances and results they deserved with inner monologues that all wonderfully capped their character arcs, the animation team managed to get the quality back up, and I cried at the ending credits. What a beautiful show.
Re S2 talk: Season 2, if we're going to get an actual proper season 2 and not just a film, will probably be about a resurgent Victor pushing Yuri and Yuri to even greater heights. Optimal outcome there I think would be Yuri winning at Japan nationals and Victor winning at Russian nationals, but with Yuri having a lower score than Victor. Yuri/Yurio/Victor for 1st/2nd/3rd at Worlds (no idea what to do for Euro/4Con).
I mean, subtext is kinda the crux for what many consider good writing. We don't need it spelled out because of how well it gets their relationship across. I think it's better this way.
What is in the actual text though? The rug is pulled out from under the viewer on the relationship between Viktor and Yuri because the show is not about that. It is not a show about romance. The "love" it tries to capture is a love for everything around Yuri. This is not a show about a canonical homosexual relationship, and like all other shows aimed at women about gay men it revels in flirtation and titillates with the idea of a homosexual relationship that it ultimately never commits to. The absence of solidifying a relationship here is "subtext" that speaks louder than anything else.
Also fun, Tanaka-kun is Always Listless literally has Yuri's arc in one episode.
Also like, their pair skating was basically a metaphor for sex anyway?
I dunno, go read "No, Thank You!!!" if you need actual dicks in butts to say "yes, I can 100% tell this is gay and not just bait" (you should do this anyway, it's a good game). But as someone who calls "bait" on a lot of stuff that usually gets classified as yuri or yaoi, my verdict is that this was 100% pure homosexuality.
Araragi still doesn't know how to fight by the time of Bake/Nise/Second Series/Lastory. I think his fighting style is really just running away until the conflict resolves itself.
Hitagi knows that Araragi is a horny mother fucker and accepts that as one of the things that comes with dating him. Plus she fools around with Hanekawa as well.
But they both know that if Arararararagi actually did the dirty with another girl that Hitagi would kill them both then kill herself. And you might say "But isn't Araragi immortal?" but she'd find a way.
Araragi still doesn't know how to fight by the time of Bake/Nise/Second Series/Lastory. I think his fighting style is really just running away until the conflict resolves itself.
What is in the actual text though? The rug is pulled out from under the viewer on the relationship between Viktor and Yuri because the show is not about that. It is not a show about romance. The "love" it tries to capture is a love for everything around Yuri. This is not a show about a canonical homosexual relationship, and like all other shows aimed at women about gay men it revels in flirtation and titillates with the idea of a homosexual relationship that it ultimately never commits to. The absence of solidifying a relationship here is "subtext" that speaks louder than anything else.
Also fun, Tanaka-kun is Always Listless literally has Yuri's arc in one episode.
Can't wait to watch episode 12 with my family on Christmas day. Don't worry grandma, they are just acting gay to titillate the audience, they are actually straight.
Jokes (?) aside, I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. It feels like some people think the author is playing 4D chess with them and couldn't possibly, ever ever, simply want to write two gay characters. They simply want you to think these characters are gay but they are actually straight and they just want the dirty fujoshi money.
Subtext is important, but it's not like being subtext is automatically "good writing".
The value of subtext is for communicating things that the author wishes to convey, but aren't necessarily things the characters want to convey. Having a character say "no, but this is really a metaphor for World War 2/Wall Street/religious fundamentalism" would be terribly hokey. So subtext is used so that a text can work on two different levels. The surface level of the text, where a story is about the main plot, and the subtext below that level where it's making some larger point about things through metaphors, allegory, social commentary, etc.
When it's something crucial to the characters, leaving it unsaid isn't necessarily better writing. That's not to say that there can be no value in obfuscating details of character motivations and feelings for a certain dramatic effect, but if you're just leaving things unsaid without using that disconnect to create a specific effect, then it's not really something where you're getting a lot of value from it.
That's not entirely true. That's one form of subtext. Another form is to convey emotions, ideas and thoughts a character is having without the need to blatantly state them. We know Yuri and Victor are together thanks to the strength of the writing between the two and how well it conveys that relationship without ever needing to do some big showy scene stating it for us. Could we have seen them kiss? Sure, but it's not necessary and I don't think you'd gain anything from explicitly stating that obvious fact. It's so well done, so obvious to the audience, so already undeniable why bother stating it at that point?
Also, I mean, what about scene where everyone sees their rings and Victor talks of marriage if Yuri gets a Gold metal? I think that's pretty blatant. Sure there's a line of humor to it, but no one's denying their status as a dating couple.
What is in the actual text though? The rug is pulled out from under the viewer on the relationship between Viktor and Yuri because the show is not about that. It is not a show about romance. The "love" it tries to capture is a love for everything around Yuri. This is not a show about a canonical homosexual relationship, and like all other shows aimed at women about gay men it revels in flirtation and titillates with the idea of a homosexual relationship that it ultimately never commits to. The absence of solidifying a relationship here is "subtext" that speaks louder than anything else.
Also fun, Tanaka-kun is Always Listless literally has Yuri's arc in one episode.
The Yuri finale was largely disappointing, the whole confrontation between Yuri and Victor felt contrived for immediate drama and the conclusions to the individual character arcs didn't particularly fit. It seems odd to have Yurio, the up and comer, sweep the competition while JJ, who has reached this level multiple times is hit with sudden stage fright. It was also disappointing to not see a more visible romantic interaction between Yuri and Victor, i can understand people saying isn't necessary and that their relationship is obvious but genuine physical romance between two same sex characters, male or female, is something you rarely see in mainstream media so showing that onscreen would have a lot more impact than with a straight relationship. On a positive side, this was the most captivating episode from a skating perspective since the initial competition between Yuri and Yurio, it would have been great to see this level of quality for the entire run but that likely would have led to multiple staff deaths. Also you can't expect me to believe a teaser like that, I'm still waiting for the second season...
I enjoyed Yuri on Ice overall, and I didn't mind the finale; I really enjoyed Yuri and Yurio's skating sequences this time around. It might just be because it felt as though there were bigger stakes this time; in some earlier episodes it just felt like "alright, now they're skating...to win some competition... again". Yuri's uncertainty over whether he should retire, and wanting to inspire Viktor into skating again made it more interesting. Likewise for Yurio, having him trying to inspire Yuri into continuing his career made me really invested in his performance.
Overall what the show needed was less focus on the less relevant skaters, and more focus on Viktor and Yuri (and occasionally Yurio, whenever he shows up). Did we have to see JJ this episode? Did Otabek's performance matter? Not really. The show would have benefited from Viktor and Yuri getting more screentime dedicated to the two of them, to develop their relationship further.
This would have been a great opportunity to have some more explicit focus on Viktor and Yuri's romance. It's obvious that they're gay, but as an LGBT viewer I wanted that to be explored more. None of this silly barely dancing over the line stuff, just make it more gay! Since this show became so popular I'm almost certain it'll get a second season, so maybe they can focus on that a bit more in the next one.
Can't wait to watch episode 12 with my family on Christmas day. Don't worry grandma, they are just acting gay to titillate the audience, they are actually straight.
Jokes (?) aside, I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. It feels like some people think the author is playing 4D chess with them and couldn't possibly, ever ever, simply want to write two gay characters. They simply want you to think these characters are gay but they are actually straight and they just want the dirty fujoshi money.
I mean, maybe it's just really bait and this will be the ending of the series, but I'm not putting any money on it personally.
The point is not that they are straight or that there is some trick here. It's just a fujoshi director doing what she knows, which is watering down a homosexual relationship so that it is palatable and nonthreatening to women. The "4D chess" is the show going out of its way to play up the romantic elements between Yuri and Viktor only to leave their relationship undefined. This is what I mean when I say the show is "not gay", because ultimately it is not about romantic love between two men. There are no legitimate obstacles for explicitly defining the relationship between Yuri and Viktor outside of defanging homosexuality.
So, does anyone in YoI ever acknowledge that gay relationship between Yuri and Victor? Is there actually a single, clear statement that outs the actual existence of that relationship?
Because first and foremost I strongly dislike having a discrepancy where large parts of the story aren't actually acknowledged. Makes all those oh so grandiose events feel meaningless because there isn't a persistent world with consequences to everything taking place.
I love how everyone is up in arms because two gay guys didn't kiss or whatever, but no one cares that the Dictionary show skipped 3 seasons between episodes randomly just because. AnimeGAF has amazing standards. Always thinking of the important things.
I love how everyone is up in arms because two gay guys didn't kiss or whatever, but no one cares that the Dictionary show skipped 3 seasons between episodes randomly just because. AnimeGAF has amazing standards. Always thinking of the important things.
I love how everyone is up in arms because two gay guys didn't kiss or whatever, but no one cares that the Dictionary show skipped 3 seasons between episodes randomly just because. AnimeGAF has amazing standards. Always thinking of the important things.
I love how everyone is up in arms because two gay guys didn't kiss or whatever, but no one cares that the Dictionary show skipped 3 seasons between episodes randomly just because. AnimeGAF has amazing standards. Always thinking of the important things.
I love how everyone is up in arms because two gay guys didn't kiss or whatever, but no one cares that the Dictionary show skipped 3 seasons between episodes randomly just because. AnimeGAF has amazing standards. Always thinking of the important things.
