Korrasami was earned?
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Avatar Community |OT| Live. Die. Repeat.
- Thread starter Trey
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JadedWriter
Member
Fuck no.
Not what I said. The things legitimately good about the show are legitimately good. It's a nice and neat little tautology.
LoK has plenty of problems, lots of unrealized potential, but it produced some good things. Plenty if you hear me tell it. That's not in spite of anything.
Infinite Justice
Member
Book 3 is the best of a rough bunch, but even it has it's issues.
Still, the Z-team and the Red Lotus is by far the best concept that was introduced, and I'm still flabbergasted we got NOTHING on them in Book 4.
JadedWriter
Member
I love how the Z-Team is just an evil version of Aang's crew. To add insult to injury they got along better than Korra's team as well.
Yeah, but the organization is the real stroke of genius here. They are the PERFECT counterpoint to the antagonistic force that TLA had.
The fire nation was an overt imperial army. They were a fearsome monstrousity that was everywhere, an endless force of formidable soldiers that could crush Aang if they had the advantage of knowing his identity and location. The only reason the Gaang survived is because they worked in the shadows and struck at opportune moments. So how do you top a world conquering army after it's defeated? You don't, and that's the mistake LoK tried to make. The four nations have now a strong system of peaceful coexistance and an overt army isn't going to be allowed to manifest itself.
So instead you have the Red Lotus, and underground movement of a thousand invisible hands. Anyone could be a member, having infiltrated and sabotaging the institutions that have been built to maintain stability. This works on so many levels. Logically, when the major powers of the world have stablized, a overt revolution is impossible, so they would need to move from the shadows to make effective attacks. Thematically, since this is how the Gaang won their war against the fire nation, the Krew would be effectively fighting the old Gaang, evil army edition. And in terms of narrative tension, these antagonists would be Korra's worst enemy and incentive her to change. This is, by definition, the kind of enemy where hulk smashing her way through would be the least effective way of combat, so Korra would have to grow smarter as she went along to fight them effectively.
The Red Lotus is by far the best idea LoK ever had.
Also, Toa, that's one awesome Avatar avatar.
Infinite Justice
Member
JadedWriter
Member
Same can be said about Kuvira being a mirror image of Korra. I mean I can see it, but they didn't do much with it. You have to go onto fan blogs just to even see how they executed it on the show.
Thanks, bro.
When are the Korra comics supposed to come out? Not later in the year, right?
Well, what they tried to do was show how Korra grew from being a "You're gonna do things my way or Imma fuck you up with my superior strength" sort of hero to someone who is more empathetic to even her enemies.
So they did try to do something with it, it's just that it failed for...well, a number of reasons, primarily being that Kuvira's goals weren't really well defined or justified and Korra's negotiation tactics can be summed up "Do what I want" "No." "...please do what I want?"
JadedWriter
Member
I'm still convinced Kuvira would've been done better if she wasn't intended to be the main villain. Either a henceman to the main villain and she later reforms or as an ally. She can still be similar, but she grows a bit while working with Korra. I really just think they forced that character to be the villain, but it just never really meshes with her too well.
An author I respect was recently asked in an interview how to write good villains. His response was "don't". Whats interesting is that he wrote from a single characters pov, that character does see his enemies as villains, but you do get a sense of their motivations and perspective that reveal why they are the way they are. He also pointed out something I never noticed: Shakespeare never wrote villains. He wrote people with problems. The only arguable example would be Iago, and even his motivations are speculated to be based in something and he's just in denial about it.
TLA did this very well. Zuko and Azula are obvious examples, but even Ozai is humanized, despite being the most out and out monster of the series. In contast, the least compelling villain of the series is Unalaq, with his greatest failure is just being a dick for indiscernible reasons.
It's pretty clear we want people in our stories, not villains.
TLA did this very well. Zuko and Azula are obvious examples, but even Ozai is humanized, despite being the most out and out monster of the series. In contast, the least compelling villain of the series is Unalaq, with his greatest failure is just being a dick for indiscernible reasons.
It's pretty clear we want people in our stories, not villains.
Infinite Justice
Member
Remember the speculation that she could also be a member of the Red Lotus that continues where evil Ganng failed?
Good times (for the most part)
Good times (for the most part)
JadedWriter
Member
Well that's a really good way to look at it. It helps that the best villains are actually humanized and seem like actual people, something Kuvira never really got. The thing with Ozai is that you got some sort of chance to spend time with him. We know enough about Ozai and his cause to know that it's not even really his cause, he just inherited the damn thing. Who knows how Ozai would've turned out if he had different parents or even had more siblings. Even before Ozai was introduced as a character in book fire you still were able to piece stuff together with him through how his kids viewed him and via flashbacks.
Or the daughter of Suyin and Zaheer. I mean yeah she's definitely got a lot of Beifong attributes in her but she's still not a Beifong.Remember the speculation that she could also be a member of the Red Lotus that continues where evil Ganng failed?
Good times (for the most part)
JadedWriter
Member
He was a shitty dad, that's his depth I think.
Hold up homie, but where and when exactly? I don't remember ever coming to give an ounce of sympathy or understanding towards him at all.
That's because you frame dimensions as "good/bad" qualities. Dimensions means you have an understanding of how he came about as a person. He wasn't doing evil acts for the sheer pointless dickery reasons like Unalaq was. He was a rare, realistic depiction of someone who lacks empathy and an understanding of compassion works, which frames different actions that are still fundamentally evil in a more human light. But people think humanization is an invitation to agree with him to some extent.
Yeah, see? To be humanized doesn't mean to feel sorry for someone. It does mean to have empathy for them, but people take that to mean support in some way, and that's not it either.
Edit: I'm tired and falling asleep, but I'm sure you can find my posts on Ozai by searching.
I'll only add this in an attempt to try to explain what the world from a sociopath is like. This is a rather bad analogy, but bare with me.
Being a sociopath is like being forced to drive a car that has no breaks, while not knowing that there SHOULD be breaks in a car. To be a sociopaths is to lack the ability to feel empathy, which means you miss many social cues that others get that allow for an effective way of interacting with others socially. And only the clever ones figure out that they're missing something. Ozai being the Fire Nation head never had any need to learn social cues, so he's a sociopath that has no idea that he's missing a key feature that comes with typical human beings.
What gives Ozai a humanized depth to his character isn't that we're invited to sympathize with him, but that he functions not as a villain, but how a real person who lacks the ability to empathize with others would act. So, for example, when he burned Zuko's face off, he later justified it as a way of trying to teach his son respect. If Unalaq would have said that, that would have been a deflection or revision of what happened, because Unalaq is a generic bad guy. What makes Ozai different is that he meant it. He wasn't being actively malicious. He was actually, truly trying to be a responsible father. "My son performed a wrongful action, which requires discipline." But he lacks empathy, so he goes way, WAY overboard, because he doesn't understand what anyone with normal functioning empathy would: that Zuko isn't learning proper military etiquette, he's just a scared boy who doesn't know what he did, and in an unreal amount of pain. But Ozai doesn't have empathy, so the signals that we understand don't get through. He car breaks are cut and he doesn't realize that he wasn't supposed to crash into another person at high speed. He thinks that's just what your supposed to do.
This is also later reflected in his actions with Azula. Azula loves him. But he wants to rule to world alone. So, how do I do that while also rewarding his daughter for her service, he thinks to himself. So he dumps her with the fire nation. And you know what, he's right, that is a fucking monumental reward for a job well done. He doesn't get that she doesn't care about being a ruler. She wants to be with him, on his side. Again, the social cues that should be obvious as he would know his own daughter better than anyone, one would think, completely go over his head. He's not trying to screw her over. He's trying to do right by her. But he doesn't have the tools to interpret social cues that would let him know his daughter doesn't want that, so he doesn't realize his error.
This is not an invitation to 'sympathize' with him in the sense of "oh, poor him, he just doesn't know he's evil". You could look at it that way, true, in the sense that he didn't choose to be born wrong and in an era where he cannot get the mental help he needs. It's the same pedophile argument about how none of them choose to be born with attractions to children. True, but this is beside the point I'm making. It's the fact that he is what happens when a human being doesn't have an important social tool that allows him to interact with others. Without this tool, it doesn't matter that he is trying to be a good father to his children any more than a man whose car's breaks are cut is trying to be a good driver. You need those things to be effective at those tasks, and Ozai just doesn't have it and any attempts at 'doing right' in his eyes end in disasters that he is utterly oblivious of. That's the great irony of everything about him. He traumatizes his kids trying to be a good father and is oblivious to it all. But he's not trying to be evil, the same way no one in real life ever tries to be evil (though I guess groups like ISIS may dispute that notion). What he's actually doing is the same as what any other people do, trying to teach his kids about the ways of the world and rewarding them for their efforts. Do his duty as a father, in other words. But he's a sociopath, so his deficiency means he can't see what he's actually doing.
This social blindness comes up other times. For example, he asks Zuko to describe the Earth Kingdom, and Zuko does so with obvious respectful inflection in his voice. But he framed the question around how to defeat them, so he missed the obvious social tone, and focused on the words themselves, and responded with a tacticall strategy (as that was the relevant subject at hand). He also tries to take over the throne by pointing out his brother's grieving, as he thinks in pragmatic (Or, in this case, predatory) terms. Suffering = weak. Weak = bad. Therefore, asking father to allow him to supercede the throne is a reasonable proposition as only strong should survive. He doesn't think to consider that his father might ahve empathy for his other son's suffering, and take offense at such a suggestion.
You'll notice that all of these things still result in evil actions by Ozai. As I said, I never intended to sympathize with Ozai. He's an evil bastard. But he's an evil HUMAN bastard. Sociopaths, at the best of times, learn some measure of intellectual empathy by interacting with people not as a means of connecting to their emotions, but a simple and endless series of trial and errors of what produces a good response and what produces a bad response to understand that they are missing a vital component that prevents them from normal socialization, and they need to compensate for it somehow. Sociopaths who have unimpeachable power however? Oh man. It's like leaving an alcoholic in the worlds largest liquor store and telling him he won the booze lottery and it's all free for him. Normal people become socially maladjusted when they have an unchecked measure of power (spoiled children, corrupt cops, etc). How do you think someone who has a lack of empathy will handle it?
Ozai is predisposed to evil the same way a person driving a car with cut breaks is predisposed to crashing that car. And that's the real human factor. Ozai isn't a monster just because he's a monster, He's a monster because, as a human being with that deficiency and that position of unlimited power, what else can he be?
JadedWriter
Member
You were pretty much able to gauge Ozai's value system through the evolution of his two children. One valued his opinion, the other eventually fought to break away from it. One's mentally sane, the other got lost in a forest.
That first sentence is nonsense. We understand how he came about because he was brought up in a system of war and oppression and was a Bad Enough Dude to be Firelord, whereas his brother is wise and compassionate. Why the two are so different is never shown, we merely accept that they are. But where Iroh gains dimensions in how he treats his enemies with respect, knows his place, and extends compassion because of his loss, Ozai is simply a raging dick head who mutilated his son because he could. He respects power and nothing else.
I will agree that functionally, unalaq was a worse villain than Ozai. At least the latter had characters play off of him for literary currency.
Nope.
See the edit.
FeenixRising
Banned
Hey guys what's going on....
Oh.
I'll see myself out.
Oh.
I'll see myself out.
That Dude John
Member
Forgive me, Toa. I'll never not be able to see the penis in your avatar.
Icyflamez96
Member
how long would that post have been if he wasn't falling to sleep
JadedWriter
Member
He'd still be writing it as I type this several god damn hours later. Then EvilLore would see it and make a thread out of it.
Icyflamez96
Member
FeenixRising
Banned
JadedWriter
Member
Makes perfect sense. The world is as it should be.
FeenixRising
Banned
Yes it is my friend. Order is restored in the world.
Besides the crazy Kuvirasami shipping going on in tumblr, I thought I was a crazy shipper.
Stop doing it to yourself Toa, it's been over a year since the show ended.
JadedWriter
Member
Let that dream die and watch Kill La Kill already you damn fool. Blumenkrantz is all you need.
No lies detected. Or film scores, those are nice too.
It's time to give up.
FeenixRising
Banned
Or you can open your eyes to the greatness that is Kodachi-bae
JadedWriter
Member
Or Ukyo, as long as it's not Akane or insane as fuck Shampoo. I wonder if he's seen Sailor Moon? Can't fucking deny sailor Mars and Jupiter.
Icyflamez96
Member
.
Stop telling us to watch bad anime.
JadedWriter
Member
Why do I always feel like the only person that enjoyed that show? Freezing is a bad anime, KLK is just weird at times.
JadedWriter
Member
Thank you. I always say if you're taking it seriously while watching it, you're watching it wrong.
There's no way to watch it other than seriously, as with any show. But if you mean that you laugh along with the fan service and comedy, I agree that's a good thing.
Shows not perfect on any writing level, but like ttgl, I don't think that matters because it defies conventional writing standards. I don't think anything is unVeelkable, but if anything is, it's TTGL and KLK. And it's got heart. A lot of heart.
Edit: and Satsuki Kiryuin is a better Kuvira than Kuvira ever managed to be.
How many people have recommended JoJo in this thread? Because there needs to be more JoJo
JadedWriter
Member
No kidding. I watched it seriously as in I liked the comedy, characters and bombastic over the top nature of it, but I will admit it's narratively fucked, but I still managed to enjoy it both times I've watched it, probably even liked it more the second time I saw it. It's anything but a passionless show. If a person let the half ass fan service stop them from enjoying it then that's their own problem. I wouldn't recommend it to somebody just getting into anime, cause it's just too anime for anime's sake, but it's very enjoyable. And yes Satsuki is love, Satsuki is life, best written character on that show.
I love Dio sama, I can't wait for Part 4.
Jeremy Zuckerman Interview, goes into his work with Avatar/The Legend of Korra.