I have to say about the Uncanny event:
Shame it seems that things are pointing to that it'll be all retconned by Eva going back in time. Her doing that really ruins the character arc she just had 
Avengers & X-Men: AXIS (OT) The Red Onslaught
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It's why the MCU and X-Men IPs benefit from not being in the same on-screen universe.
Manmademan
Member
This is where reading the issues becomes important.
superpowered humans are "ok" because for the most part they are anomalies. There's one captain marvel, one quasar, one wonder man, one Vision. There's one hulk, and one spider man- occasionally you get a she-hulk or a spider clone, but generally you're talking a handful at best.
Mutants are a completely different issue. Mutants at their peak numbered not in the dozens, but went from zero to several million in the space of about a decade. There is no reliable way to tell who is or isn't one, they just appear. That kid next door could be totally normal, or he could nuke his school into oblivion on a bad day.
Add to that that there are several valid timelines where mutants became numerous enough or powerful enough to turn "flatscans" into slaves or second class citizens, and it's obvious why this is a concern.
Sure, there are other races- Asgardians, Eternals, Olympians- but for the most part these races are extremely small in number and rarely procreate. The one race that does (inhumans) got treated the exact same way mutants do when they started popping up all over.
Supermanisdead
Member
Mutants are, or at least were, much more common. It was a random genetic thing that could happen to anyone, whereas heroes like Captain America, Iron Man, Spider-Man etc. were freak accidents or technology and money. But when your son wakes up with a third eye or your daughter grows horns, it makes people nervous and scared.
Then there is the whole evolution thing being thrown around by extremists like Magneto and Apocalypse. Homo-superior and shit.
Not to mention years of anti-mutant propaganda from elected officials and religious leaders.
It's all a lot scarier than Spider-man who got bit by a spider in some one-in-a-million accident.
Manmademan
Member
exactly.
The X-men have, but 'all mutants' have not. your average citizen doesn't know the New Mutants from the M.L.F., the Morlocks, the Nasty Boys, the Brotherhood, or the Four Horsemen.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
This is always well the social metaphor for the mutants breaks down for me. Fear/hate for black people or homosexuals are a lot more irrational than being scared of a kid who could blow your fucking head off with a glance. If mutants really existed, they wouldn't be any co-existence, they couldn't go to the same schools and be around normal kids. White kid and a black kid get in a fight, you get some black eyes and bruised feelings. Normal kid and mutant who can turn into solid steel get a fight, normal kid might end up dead, lol.
Supermanisdead
Member
It's not been that long in Marvel history, due to the sliding timescale. The original X-Men are in their mid 30s around now, so it's really only been maybe 15-20 years since mutants became widespread public knowledge. So to go from 0 to over 16 million in such a short time is crazy. Then M-Day and Second Coming happened and now there's another mutant baby boom.
Manmademan
Member
keep in mind that there are still a lot of people that view minorities not as just people with a different skin color, but inherently violent animals that spread crime and disease wherever they go.
The analogy isn't perfect by any means, but there's some validity to it- especially if you're going back to the late 1960s.
googleplex
Member
It should also be pointed out that this is first time in the History of the Marvel universe that you actually have a large number of the human population actually coming out in support of mutants. They actually have rallies and protest for them now. Largely because of Cyclops.
So tell me again how Cyclops isn't Right?
Supermanisdead
Member
The analogy is far-stretched because ultimately these are still sci-fi comics. It's not perfect obviously, but it's the closest they can get without throwing it all out the window.
Manmademan
Member
it appears you have a reading comprehension problem.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
People rally behind things all the time. People rally behind murderers, people rally behind disgusting celebrities, people rally behind causes that harm them.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Right, but again that's a really irrational fear held by assholes, not a very public or popular opinion nowadays thankfully. If black people had claws that could pop out of their hands, or could scramble your brain without touching you, or explode your laptop with kinetic energy, EVERYBODY on the planet would be scared of us, lol. I mean, that's a real, tangible, dangerous difference there besides some people like the same gender or have darker skin. Maybe not enough for you to actively hate them and start building black people killer giant robots, but you would probably want them to stay the hell away from you. They probably should have their own nation and schools and governments.
Manmademan
Member
That's beside the point. Some people support mutants, some people hate them, it doesn't matter as long as the establishment has the position that it does.
Marvel isn't even pretending that scott isn't right anymore- Beast went out of his way to point that out.
Beast asks the Avengers, the UN, every government on the planet with assistance. He got ignored, because this is a "mutant problem." they aren't interested in solving it, and the only response the X-men got was
scott being nuked off the map
Scott summers IS right, but his position means that peaceful cohabitation does not work, asking for what is theirs does not work, nothing works except taking what they're owed by force, because the rest of the world isn't interested.
googleplex
Member
Marvel isn't even pretending that scott isn't right anymore- Beast went out of his way to point that out.
Beast asks the Avengers, the UN, every government on the planet with assistance. He got ignored, because this is a "mutant problem." they aren't interested in solving it, and the only response the X-men got was.scott being nuked off the map
Yes it only took the Watcher to come down and call beast an Asshole for him to start to pull his head out of his ass. I'm not sure what it's going to take for Iceman to do the say.
Manmademan
Member
yep, reading comprehension problem.
Supermanisdead
Member
Yup. Now that Storm and Co. have realized that Scott was right (and that uncle tom, Wolverine, is dead) we can get the glorious X-Men restoration. X-Nation here we come
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
That's beside the point. Some people support mutants, some people hate them, it doesn't matter as long as the establishment has the position that it does.
Marvel isn't even pretending that scott isn't right anymore- Beast went out of his way to point that out.
Beast asks the Avengers, the UN, every government on the planet with assistance. He got ignored, because this is a "mutant problem." they aren't interested in solving it, and the only response the X-men got wasscott being nuked off the map
Scott summers IS right, but his position means that peaceful cohabitation does not work, asking for what is theirs does not work, nothing works except taking what they're owed by force, because the rest of the world isn't interested.
Its quite possible noone is willing to help because the whole world has issues as of late. Except for the random crossover or superhero act here and there, everyone is still separated doing its own thing. Wakanda was left to become a crater as well. But i will say this, old man steve is as a bad idea as captain falcon. Since hes slightly caught up with his age, hes entered that cantankerous old douchebag phase.
Manmademan
Member
We know that's not accurate, because SHIELD certainly did send people....
All of this happened before "8 months later'", before Wakanda was a crater, and before AXIS. "not enough resources" doesn't really make much sense.
Supermanisdead
Member
The Avengers are "off-planet" lol. Even the giant Avengers reserve roster which includes multiple X-Men? Even the so-called Unity Squad?
It's so weird how differently the situation is presented from Remender and Bendis' points of view.
It's so weird how differently the situation is presented from Remender and Bendis' points of view.
Manmademan
Member
There are so many avengers at this point that I don't think they even have enough ships to send them all off planet. When the universe was being invaded, a full half of them stayed on earth, chilling out.
There are super scientists to spare- Tony Stark, Reed Richards, Ant Man, Black Panther, Blue Marvel, even Peter Parker if they're desperate. and that's just from the avengers roster. There is an entire "rest of the world" with resources. The world said "fixing this isn't a priority. just get rid of it."
Infinity?? lol no. it's not that far back, though I'm not entirely sure if wolverine is still alive at this point in the book or not. edit: he is.
googleplex
Member
What the hell are you talking about.
Beast started to seriously reevaluate all of the shit he's been doing once the Watcher told him to get stuffed.
Ether refute what I post to don't respond at all.
googleplex
Member
This and ridiculous cross-over events where everyone is out of character.
Manmademan
Member
Beast didn't "reevaluate his position" because of anything the Watcher said. he "reevaluated his position" when the entire world told him to fuck off.
Again, this is obvious from context. What the watcher was pissed off about was an entirely different ball of wax.
googleplex
Member
He's been on that arch since the Watcher spoke to him . Everyone telling him to fuck off what finally put him over. My point was when the Watcher comes down off his perch to call you an idiot you know you've done fucked it up.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
To be fair, id tell beast to fuck off too. Hes been doing nothing but fucking up as of late. Although im sure none of that factored into it.
Beast got shit upon by the Watcher for bringing the first class X-Men to the present and afterwards Young Beast gave him a hard time as well.
Also, Beast was captured by the inverted Avengers. He didn't change his position on Cyclops and eveything else. If he did, he would have stayed with Nation X and told the Illuminati to fudge off.
Also, Beast was captured by the inverted Avengers. He didn't change his position on Cyclops and eveything else. If he did, he would have stayed with Nation X and told the Illuminati to fudge off.
googleplex
Member
Hell even his Younger time displaced self basically told him to GTFO.
Manmademan
Member
That's exactly what that was. Selfish motives for taking advantage of busted time. Beast has massively screwed several possible futures by doing what he did, and his reasoning doesn't even make sense.
He went to grab those X-men as a pretense for getting jean grey back. it had nothing to do with "stopping scott summers" and several people have come to this conclusion by now.
Beast is certainly a piece of shit, and the stuff he got into with the illuminati, blowing up planets and shit is certainly icing on the cake, but none of that is relevant to what is going on in uncanny in those two panels.
Beast still thinks of himself as an avenger, still thinks the world can be bargained with and coexistence is possible, and found out the hard way that Scott was right there. That's it. This whole thing going back to Uncanny #1 was "Scott vs. Everyone else" and Beast just realized he lost.
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
No she wasn't she was sentenced to death by the Shi'ar. When was Wolverine forgiven, not that he would remember if he was , his brain was a can of alphabet soup after decades of conditioning, training, and missions.
They were mad at Cyclops because they wanted to try and keep the Phoenix from bonding with any mortal human or mutant because they know that a mortals emotions corrupt the phoenix's being when they are bound to one another. And the Phoenix no longer operates as it should.....oh and its super powerful guardian of the M'Kraan crystal that cold eat a planet in seconds...so...kinda want to keep that from going out of control...
Manmademan
Member
Not only that, but the Shi'ar wiped out Jean Grey's entire bloodline in retribution. When teen jean came to the present they crossed galaxies just to string her up and try to execute her. The Shi'ar did not forget about that at ALL and Jean Grey is not forgiven there.
and to top it all off- that wasn't even her. Dark phoenix was just a simulacrum using jean's form. The real jean was at the bottom of the ocean the entire time.
It seems like Beast is the new Scarlet Witch in that Bendis has completely changed his character in order to make X-fans hate him - and some X-fans actually buy this.
Me, when a good character is written completely the opposite from what he's been for 50 years, I just chalk it up to out-of-character writing and stop reading until another writer takes over. Hank McCoy spent decades as one of the most likable and compassionate guys in the Marvel Universe, both as an Avenger and an X-Man. But now he has the bad luck to be stuck in Bendis's X-Men and Hickman's New Avengers and OMG he's evil.
Same with Scarlet Witch, a character who was a proud, open mutant until Bendis came along - a much prouder, more open mutant than the original X-Men.Xavier and the other X-Men hid that they were mutants; the Avengers welcomed two openly mutant members, making them the more progressive team. But Bendis comes along, decides in contradiction to all previous stories that she's ashamed of being a mutant, and has her use powers she never had before to wipe out mutants due to daddy issues she never had before. It's like a writer deciding Jughead likes girls now, and fans shouldn't fall for it.
As for Scott, I don't think he's supposed to be bad at all. Bendis has very carefully protected him from ever crossing the line into villainy. The worst thing he did was killing Xavier, which was set up to be in no way his fault. Since then he's really a good guy misunderstood by the mean humans, not a true terrorist like Magneto used to be. Bendis is doing a good job of making him morally ambiguous without destroying his usefulness as a character. Wish he'd do the same with characters he doesn't like (Wanda, Hank).
Me, when a good character is written completely the opposite from what he's been for 50 years, I just chalk it up to out-of-character writing and stop reading until another writer takes over. Hank McCoy spent decades as one of the most likable and compassionate guys in the Marvel Universe, both as an Avenger and an X-Man. But now he has the bad luck to be stuck in Bendis's X-Men and Hickman's New Avengers and OMG he's evil.
Same with Scarlet Witch, a character who was a proud, open mutant until Bendis came along - a much prouder, more open mutant than the original X-Men.Xavier and the other X-Men hid that they were mutants; the Avengers welcomed two openly mutant members, making them the more progressive team. But Bendis comes along, decides in contradiction to all previous stories that she's ashamed of being a mutant, and has her use powers she never had before to wipe out mutants due to daddy issues she never had before. It's like a writer deciding Jughead likes girls now, and fans shouldn't fall for it.
As for Scott, I don't think he's supposed to be bad at all. Bendis has very carefully protected him from ever crossing the line into villainy. The worst thing he did was killing Xavier, which was set up to be in no way his fault. Since then he's really a good guy misunderstood by the mean humans, not a true terrorist like Magneto used to be. Bendis is doing a good job of making him morally ambiguous without destroying his usefulness as a character. Wish he'd do the same with characters he doesn't like (Wanda, Hank).
Ding ding ding.
Cyclops is still an asshole (Beast won't change his stance on that) but he does have a point regarding mutant kind being on their own. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. It will take some time and some clean-up on Cykes Magneto-light approach before Beast will consider him as a friend again.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
All of this is why I want is a Beast Mini Series starring OG Beast and All New Beast. The only downside would be the fact Wonder man couldn't get a cameo.
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
I dont think anyone thinks hank is a villain or lost cause in the same vein that theyve fucked wanda, just that hes really fucked things up by not realizing his place. He isnt a leader, and yet puts himself in such positions. He doesnt seem to pretend to be able to shoulder his dicisions. But as he can tranform into another form, he isnt stuck with a black eye. Only pym and wanda seem to be.
Memento Mori
Member
Oh Beast was awful in Gillen's run too. Beast has been awful for some years now.
Well, that's fair.
One thing I'd like to research is the idea that the Avengers and X-Men are hostile to each other or that the Avengers haven't done enough for mutants, because it doesn't go back that far. Originally the X-Men seemed like a fairly well-respected team in the MU (partly because not everyone seemed to realize they were mutants) and they had a very separate agenda from the Avengers, which was fighting against evil mutants or trying to stop mutants from being recruited by the bad guys. So except for the inevitable "the teams fight over a misunderstanding" issue, they were cool.
I think the first time I ever saw a character accuse the Avengers of being indifferent to mutant suffering was Wolverine accusing Captain America in Secret Wars. It's really amped up lately, though, so Cap is a benevolent icon of tolerance in his own book but an insensitive authoritarian clod in X-books. Characters who are both Avengers and mutants, like Hank, have a dual-loyalty thing going now that they didn't really used to have because of the new tension.
Zeus Molecules
illegal immigrants are stealing our air
Too be fair pym beat his wife and went to jail, wanda massacred a species, and Cyclops seized territory from the United States.
Yeah Beast kidnapped some kids but one of them were himself so it was a quasi crime
Yeah, I too am a little tired of Beast being some X writer whipping boy. Interesting point brought up in comparing him to the Scarlet Witch - who was also sacrificed and only recently have some writers been trying to absolve her of Bendis's fucking horrible writing. Of course, these once 2 proud mutants also being proud Avengers has to make one think...
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
pym didnt beat his wife, the mutant massacred were merely depowered, and im still curious how scott managed that
Manmademan
Member
The problem with the X-men vs. everyone else, is that for a very long time, the Xmen's biggest antagonist wasn't really magneto or evil mutants, it was sentinels and the US Government.
This worked fine when the Xmen and Avengers books (mostly) seemed to run in different continuities, but in the more tightly integrated Marvel U this doesn't really work.
"The government" that was manufacturing sentinels all this time has been retconned into being SHIELD. This is obviously a problem where the avengers are concerned, because it's very hard to plead ignorance of all the shit sentinels have been pulling over the past few decades.
Supermanisdead
Member
Beast's bullshit began long before Bendis came along. He's a hypocrite and an asshole. He destroyed a whole galaxy in Astonishing X-Men, remade the Legacy Virus to target Skrulls and is currently building universe-nukes with the illuminati. It's been quite a while since Beast has been a genuine hero.
Manmademan
Member
yep. They had to go and kill off dark beast recently, because regular beast was making him look like a saint in comparison
Parallax
best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
ehh. hank hasnt activated his josef mengele side yet.
googleplex
Member
Hank slapped his wife during a mental and emotion break down. Pym gets way more shit then he should for that, But he did create Ultron , But he's an Avenger so he's not in jail or anything.
When 'No more mutants" happens lots for mutants died when they got de-powered. And more still when they couldn't defend themselves after humans came after them . All of those deaths are one Wanda's head. But she's a Avenger so gets a pass.
Beast broke time in a passive aggressive hissy fit aimed at Cyclops. But he gets a pass because he's in good with Cap and the Avengers.
Cyclops got possessed by the Phoenix (of course him getting possessed was the avengers fault) and He killed one man, while he was under attack from all sides as he was getting mind raped by Professor X.
Guess who's not an Avenger and who doesn't get a pass?
MHWilliams
Member
Indeed. Hank is relatively good, he just has ideals on the surface. When those ideals meet reality, he tends to fold hard.
I honestly think he hates Cyclops because Scott is willing to do the stuff Hank eventually gets to without all the "woe is me" hand-ringing. Scott does the hand-ringing after its all said and done.
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